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are there any anti-vaxxers here?

Gil Bang

By Gil Bang
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GRHorn
GRHorn

Against my better judgment I’ll share here. My oldest son is on the spectrum. His development was seemingly normal until around 2 years old. I don’t remember the exact date, in a lot of ways I have bl

Anastasis
Anastasis

I think that what needs to be kept in mind is that the vax schedule is a public health initiative. It is intended to reflect a single, coherent approach to addressing vaccine preventable disease in a

TexArcher
TexArcher

I'm all for civil liberties, too.  But yours end where mine begin, and herd immunity is a real thing. Parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids shouldn't be allowed to put them in public schools

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Mrs Whiggins

Mrs Whiggins 13049

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3 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

im sure the others in that Facebook group believe that the mom had the wrong type of crystals or singing bowls.

What if she used an Idaho Russet potato and she should've use a Beauregard variety sweet potato? The Facebook group probably offered thoughts and prayers and went on their way.

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 45557

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8 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

So, if you are out in the wilderness, with absolutely no other alternative (neosporin, anitbiotics, soap and water, some quantum of common sense, etc) and get a cut, maybe rubbing a potato on the cut might infinitesimally  reduce the chance of infection. 

This does lead one to wonder why a person would be out in the wilderness carrying potatoes.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 104605

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10 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

I think potatoes (and onions I'm sure of) are naturally resistant to bacterial infections (not viral infections, like the flu). This leads some to think potatoes and onions are some sort of cure all.

So, if you are out in the wilderness, with absolutely no other alternative (neosporin, anitbiotics, soap and water, some quantum of common sense, etc) and get a cut, maybe rubbing a potato on the cut might infinitesimally  reduce the chance of infection. Although even that is doubtful, because the bacteria that would infect a fucking potato would probably have nothing to do with a human, and vice versa.

 

Sounds like a way to come down with a nasty case of potato blight.

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Mrs Whiggins

Mrs Whiggins 13049

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25 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

That Martian astronaut guy grew potatoes on Mars to keep from starving to death. And he didn't get the flu did he?

Over-ruled. That Martian astronaut guy was a NASA scientist (Science-strike one). He worked for the government (deep state-strike 2) and everyone knows the solar system is fake because the earth is flat and those planets are round. (Hollywood cabal-strike 3).

 

Edit to add- but plus points for mentioning a really good movie. :)

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Viper

Viper 12028

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Saw this answer on Quora and thought it explained really well about why antivaxxers believe what they believe

https://www.quora.com/Think-about-the-anti-vaccine-movement-Where-does-this-mentality-come-from-who-is-promoting-this-mentality-and-why-are-people-falling-for-it/answer/Cem-Arslan-2

 

Quote
 
Cem Arslan, Amateur military historian and armchair general

Let’s talk about two people: one of whom must be known very well to most people, and one, unless they’re particularly interested in the anti-vaccine movement, probably isn’t.

Andrew Wakefield and Catie Clobes.

Andrew Jeremy Wakefield was a Briton, born in the historic town of Eton, and a graduate of the St. Mary’s Hospital Medical School(today Imperial College School of Medicine), in London. By 1998, he was a well-regarded physician with seventeen years of experience since his graduation. 1998 is important: that year, he published a notorious paper in The Lancet claiming to have found a link between a novel form of bowel disease(which he called autistic enterocolitis), autism, and the MMR vaccine. Later that year he gave a press conference calling for the suspension of the triple MMR vaccine until further research could be done.

Wakefield’s results were unable to be replicated by any independent research, his methodology was found to be flawed, and Lancet retracted the paper along with publishing a statement by ten of the study’s thirteen co-authors that repudiated any link between the MMR vaccine and autism.

However… Wakefield’s study wasn’t simply born of error. In 2004, after the initial controversy had died down, it was found out that several of the parents of the 12 children that took part in Wakefield’s tests were then recruited by a UK lawyer preparing a lawsuit against MMR vaccine manufacturers, and that Wakefield’s research was paid a sum approximating 55.000 British pounds to fund the research through the UK’s Legal Aid Board. More importantly, two more years later, it was discovered that Wakefield was paid a sum in excess of 400.000 pounds by the very same lawyers.

Wakefield was charged by the UK General Medical Council with six charges all relating to gross misconduct, was found guilty on all cases, and his name was struck from the UK medical register: an act equivalent to the revocation of his medical license.

Today, Wakefield continues to advocate his anti-vaccine nonsense. He has written a book on the subject, directed a propaganda movie on the subject, and is currently filming a sequel to it. He is also a frequent speaker at anti-vaccine conferences, for which he charges significant speaking fees.

As a capable doctor of nearly two decades’ experience, it is unlikely in the extreme that Wakefield was not aware of exactly how fraudulent his study was. His motivation to do it is quite simple: money, money he earns in formidable amounts from his anti-vaccine advocacy. To quote Indiewire’s review of his propaganda movie Vaxxed, Wakefield doesn’t just have a dog in this fight: he is the dog.

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Catie Clobes, however, has a different backstory. A woman living in Minnesota and, at the time, the mother of three children including a six month old daughter, Evee Gayle Clobes. Evee was a happy, healthy kid that until then had received all her vaccines on time.

The day was 28 February 2019, one day after Evee was given two vaccine shots that contained vaccines for pertussis, diptheria, tetanus, polio, hepatitis B and pneumococcal disease. Evee was exactly as usual the whole day. In the evening, Catie breastfed her daughter, and put her to bed. She joined her daughter in the same bed about two hours later.

When she woke up the next morning, Evee was dead.

Initial evidence pointed to Evee having slept with her face down, or otherwise having turned face-down while her mother slept: a situation extremely probable to result in asphyxiation, and a significant risk for a child sleeping in an adult’s bed. The autopsy stated that the cause of death was undetermined, but ‘co-sleeping with an adult’ was listed as a significant factor.

Catie Clobes was at the same time unsatisfied with the ‘undetermined’ ruling, and was also terribly fearful of the possibility that it was because of where Evee had slept- because if it was because Evee slept with her mother in the same bed, that would mean Catie indirectly killed her daughter and she couldn’t tolerate that.

She suspected Evee’s extremely recent shots, and went on to the notorious Facebook group Stop Mandatory Vaccination, asking whether Evee’s vaccines could have killed her. The answer that she received, I believe, is obvious from the name of the group in question.

Over the following week, the people in that group filled Catie Clobes with all manner of the typical nonsense that anti-vaxxers love to peddle. Within a week, they turned a grieving mother into someone who went on interviewing for the group’s newsletter.

Following the advice she received, Catie demanded tests from the medical examiner’s office and filed a case in the ‘vaccine court’, the popular name for the US’ National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. The letter she received from the medical examiner is vital in order to fully realize what happened to Evee Clobes: I’ll quote it in its entirety, emphasis mine:

I have taken the opportunity to re-review all the case information, including scene description and photos, law enforcement reports and photos, autopsy report and photos, tissue samples, and other studies. I have also discussed the case again with the investigating law enforcement agency and other forensic pathologists. I requested the law enforcement report and reviewed an initial examination of your daughter by a Detective _____, which I have not previously seen. As you are aware, Evee was found dead in an adult bed which also contained you, an adult-sized comforter, and adult-sized pillos, factors which create an unsafe sleeping environment for an infant. All photos of Evee clearly show pooling of the blood over the front of her body and face, indicating that she was face-down in the bed when she died and for some time afterwards; this is supported by the presence of purge fluid on the sheet in the area where Evee was sleeping. The examination by Detective _____ specifically notes impressions on Evee’s face due to being face down on the blankets. Given these scene and autopsy findings, the most accurate diagnosis is positional asphyxia. I will therefore be amending the death certificate to reflect this. Because there are no scene or autopsy findings and no scientific literature to support vaccination as a cause of, or contributor to, Evee’s death, the death certificate will not be amended to include vaccination.

It was too late, though. Catie Clobes was already a lost cause, and she kept on fiercely defending the false notion that vaccines killed her daughter. The alternative was, I presume, too horrifying.

She is still a leading anti-vaxxer in the US.

main-qimg-86a0dd38a6df336a210bcb26897ddfd2

These two people, Andrew Wakefield and Catie Clobes, represent the two kind of people who belong to the anti-vaccine cult.

Wakefield and his likes, like Del Bigtree or Larry D. Cook, are people who are entirely aware that what they peddle are flat-out lies. They’re aware that they deceive millions of people across the globe, and they do it without a moment’s hesitation, because doing so lines their pockets.

But they are few. They are few, and it’s people like Catie Clobes who hold the seemingly endless ranks of the anti-vaccine cult. They’re exploited, desperate people: more often than not mothers of children, who either fear what might happen to their children or desperately seek something to blame for their children’s diseases, disorders or abnormalities. They are people who started out afraid or grieving until they found other anti-vaxxers, who brainwashed them and indoctrinated them with nonsense any scientifically inclined and clear-headed person would have seen for what it is. This is why the anti-vaxxers prey on those kind of people: people who are either so desperate for an answer or so clouded in emotion that they do not notice the most easily disproven lie, until it is repeated to them so often that it becomes gospel.

They cease to question. They cease to research. They barely think on what they advocate: because the cause they advocate is so harmful, its outcomes so dreadful, that they don’t dare even consider the possibility they might be wrong- because to admit that they were wrong in being anti-vaxxers is to admit they have blood of children on their hands. Blood of, in many cases, their own children- and they are too scared for that.

And thus the endless cult moves on, absorbing into itself the grieving, the scared and the desperate, the weak that it preys on, and all the while children die and Wakefield and Bigtree and Cook line their pockets.

 

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13412

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anti-vaxxers basically occur because people don't really appreciate how dangerous this diseases can be.  They also come in different flavors. I think some anti-vaxxers would have no trouble giving their kid tamiflu if they actually get the flu. But their kid ain't getting the vaccine.

You also have normally reasonable people, especially suburban moms, that while not anti-vaxxers, they also engage in unscientific methods. Like wanting to split vaccines from each other. Even though there is zero proof multiple vaccines at once creates problems. It's like their trying to hedge their bets to cover all circumstances.

 

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Nivek

Nivek 16859

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On 2/6/2020 at 7:25 PM, tx 3 putt said:

What healing powers come from a potato ?

So a lot of the quackery originates around the feet.  There is the belief that the feet is the pathway into the immune system and that by putting oils on the feet will help the kid out.   I suppose because the potato has the magical power of fixing your salt-fuckups it might help remove the generic "toxins" in the body.   Putting oils and vicks on the feet is harmless as long as it isn't used as a primary remedy to an issue.   

There are slight bits of truth in alternative medicine which are always extrapolated above and beyond.  For example, ginger was used as a stomach remedy and is often served with sushi because IIRC, it helped to stave off stomach issues.   But then you get CBD which will cure anything and everything, without the fun of codine/cocaine or whatever those other snake oils were made of.  

I used to inquire about specific toxins but never could get a straight answer.  Plus I am aware of the body's design plan for removing toxins, piss.  It does not always work (mercury) and as we pollute the shit out of the planet, atomized the shit out of lead, and a host of other chemicals are being made known to the public (teflon) it only serves to provide more reasons for these therapies in the minds of some.  

So brush your teeth with charcoal powder,.

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Biff Tannen

Biff Tannen 45494

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On 2/7/2020 at 11:03 AM, Viper said:

Saw this answer on Quora and thought it explained really well about why antivaxxers believe what they believe

https://www.quora.com/Think-about-the-anti-vaccine-movement-Where-does-this-mentality-come-from-who-is-promoting-this-mentality-and-why-are-people-falling-for-it/answer/Cem-Arslan-2

 

 

My sister is an anti-vaxxer because her second child is special needs.  This describes her and her situation perfectly.

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Homercles

Homercles 10205

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My boss, otherwise one of the most dedicated, smart, loyal, caring guys who has let me float on regularly the past few years when my kids are sick, or my wife or whatever else I’ve needed that he is ok with prioritizing over work...once told me his boy got diagnosed with autism right after a vaccine...I never broached the subject again and he never advertises it, no Facebook or working vaccines into discussions.  However I have no doubt he’s against them. 

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13412

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4 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

These assholes probably still believe in the the theory of body humors and blood letting.

I love historical fiction period pieces as much as all middle aged white women but I do not want to actually live them.
 

Cupping has become more popular because hey, it was used in ancient Chinese medicine. Gotta unblock your Qi.

I can get behind the idea that modern, scientific medicine has deficiencies that need to be addressed but that doesn’t mean the reaction should be to turn back the clock to 1000 BC.

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9935

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Posted (edited)
On 2/8/2020 at 3:17 PM, Homercles said:

My boss, otherwise one of the most dedicated, smart, loyal, caring guys who has let me float on regularly the past few years when my kids are sick, or my wife or whatever else I’ve needed that he is ok with prioritizing over work...once told me his boy got diagnosed with autism right after a vaccine...I never broached the subject again and he never advertises it, no Facebook or working vaccines into discussions.  However I have no doubt he’s against them. 

There was an unfortunate set of vectors surfacing near the same time for many. Everyone was looking for an answer and perhaps a cure. Mercury poisoning made logical sense. But that hypothesis should have been quickly dismissed once the Lancet article tying autism to vaccines was credibly refuted. With kids on the spectrum, that was an explosive period of dead end rabbit trails, but also tremendous strides forward in what kids with learning differences need. 

There were a lot of quacks back then selling worthless cures and remedies. Once they got a taste of that money flowing from the monetization of someone's pain, they scaled it up. 

My kids were all vaxxed and continue to be vaxxed at the normal intervals - as modified by pediatricians over the years based on recommended schedule changes. There was pressure in the hippy confines of Denver/Boulder to not vax, but my wife and her family are in medicine, so we went with current science. The peer pressure in some communities can be overwhelming for new moms and dads. It is a bit like the pressure a woman feels to breastfeed when the Le Leche League used to visit every new mom. Moms and dads just want to do the right thing.  

I hope science is studying anti-vaxxers. They are conducting their own human experimentation, which would be illegal for scientists to conduct. They are relatively unique as a study group. All of the supplements may skew any scientific value (people are putting a lot of OTC chemicals into their body that are far less tested that vaccines). But there still should be some hard data to analyze in medicine and in the social sciences. 

I sincerely pray for the kids caught up in this.

Edited by washparkhorn
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Huckleberry

Huckleberry 32701

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8 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

My kids were all vaxxed and continue to be vaxxed at the normal intervals - as modified by pediatricians over the years based on recommended schedule changes. There was pressure in the hippy confines of Denver/Boulder to not vax, but my wife and her family are in medicine, so we went with current science. The peer pressure in some communities can be overwhelming for new moms and dads. It is a bit like the pressure a woman feels to breastfeed when the Le Leche League used to visit every new mom. Moms and dads just want to do the right thing.

You kind of just said that peer pressure to ignore medical research and refuse the currently accepted best practice is a bit like peer pressure to accept medical research and follow the currently accepted best practice.

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9935

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8 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

You kind of just said that peer pressure to ignore medical research and refuse the currently accepted best practice is a bit like peer pressure to accept medical research and follow the currently accepted best practice.

That is a fair point. One is more reliable than the other. With my kids, I trust the honest conversations I have had with our pediatricians about vaccination schedules rather than the parents who group together in school to discuss the latest a-ha discovery on FB feeds.

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