Film Study Why we struggled in pass defense vs Clemson(nothing to worry about folks)

[Dahobbs 18,396]

5 hours ago, dcar00 said:

the rule is between the tackles and 3 yards on either side of the LOS I believe.  that said.  there is a ton of leeway given to OL or TE blocking blitzers or ends rushing in the back as they go by even if it is well behind the LOS

I get it doesn't get called often, but when the QB is in shotgun, because the ball immediately leaves the blocking zone, by rule the zone disintegrates, and any blocks in the back after the initial blocking action should be penalties. 

[kevwun 16,447]

I think Howard just had the game of his life on Saturday.  He hasn't made throws like that all year.

[Thatguy 9,447]

3 hours ago, ztejas said:

I do too and that is what I tried to convey - maybe I didn't word it well. 

No I got you which is why I agreed.

[Thatguy 9,447]

1 minute ago, kevwun said:

I think Howard just had the game of his life on Saturday.  He hasn't made throws like that all year.

Tennessee plays primarily man and just fucked around and found out is all that was. Their weakness is their QB's ability to read complex defenses and throw into tight windows. Tenn decided "let's clear up his picture for him and try to man cover all 5 star receivers". I drool over the tOSU receiving corp. That's the one thing with us. We have never had top notch receivers. The closest we came was the trio, but even then they weren't as good as WE thought they were. I think that's why our fans think what we currently have is good until you turn on the TV and see what Oregon and tOSU have. Now running backs is a different story.

[StassneyHorn 6,790]

9 hours ago, StassneyHorn said:

You are wrong. Oline never get called for that as long as they're near the line of scrimmage. Every lookout block would be a block in the back then. Anytime a LB or DE drops a shoulder it would be called.

@Dahobbs youre very clearly wrong and two others have given you an out by using "lot of leeway", "kinda depends" and "doesn't get called often" Thinking where a QB receives his snap is borderline r-word.

 

Edited 22 hours ago by StassneyHorn

[Dark Horse 2,436]

9 hours ago, Texas Flood said:

Wait is That Guy P?

Damn, I think you’re right. 

[Dahobbs 18,396]

41 minutes ago, StassneyHorn said:

@Dahobbs youre very clearly wrong and two others have given you an out by using "lot of leeway", "kinda depends" and "doesn't get called often" Thinking where a QB receives his snap is borderline r-word.
 

It is literally the rule. Some of the things you're talking about in your post (e.g., the defender dropping a shoulder) are covered by other exceptions even if they occur outside the blocking zone. There is definitely some leeway given here as I don't think the exact parameters of the blocking zone (3 yards longitudinally and 5 yards laterally in each direction) are easy to see and enforce. The rules have changed over the year (e.g., getting rid of low-block zone in favor of a general blocking zone). I know other organizations have specifically addressed shotgun snaps disintegrating the blocking zone over the years, but I'm not entirely sure the NCAA has ever expressly addressed it in a casebook. But yeah, when the block in the back in question occurs 5 yards away from the line of scrimmage well after the initial contact and the ball is 10 yards away from the line of scrimmage, it is a penalty by rule. 

 

Rule 9

Section 3 Blocking, Use of Hands or Arms

ARTICLE 5 Blocking in the Back

A block in the back (other than against the ball carrier) is illegal (A R 9-3-3-I, VII and -IX; and A R 10-2-2-XII) Exceptions:

1 Offensive players who are on the line of scrimmage at the snap within the blocking zone (Rule 2-3-6) may legally block in the back in the blocking zone, subject to the following restrictions: (a) A player on the line of scrimmage within this blocking zone may not leave the zone, return and block in the back (b) The blocking zone disintegrates when the ball leaves the zone (Rule 2-3-6)

2 When a player turns their back to a potential blocker who has committed themselves in intent and direction or movement

3 When a player attempts to reach a runner or legally attempts to recover or catch a fumble, a backward pass, a kick or a touched forward pass, they may push an opponent in the back above the waist (Rule 9-1-5 Exception 3)

4 When the opponent turns their back to the blocker under Rule 9-3-3-a-1-(b)

5 When an eligible player behind the neutral zone pushes an opponent in the back above the waist to get to a forward pass (Rule 9-1-5 Exception 4)

 

Rule 2

Section 3 Blocking

ARTICLE 6 Blocking Zone

a. The blocking zone is a rectangle centered on the middle lineman of the offensive formation and extending five yards laterally and three yards longitudinally in each direction

b The blocking zone disintegrates when the ball leaves the zone;

 

 

 

 

[Tex Pete 21,511]

2 hours ago, StassneyHorn said:

@Dahobbs youre very clearly wrong and two others have given you an out by using "lot of leeway", "kinda depends" and "doesn't get called often" Thinking where a QB receives his snap is borderline r-word.

 

Stop being a fucking beating. He’s right. You’re wrong. 

[StassneyHorn 6,790]

He literally proved me right with the definition you fucking CR gatekeeping bitch. You can disintegrate my dick.

Edited 19 hours ago by StassneyHorn

[sith_horn 2,533]

Rod Babers goes into detail about secondary struggles in this video. I've linked it to start at 15:09 and he finishes around the 25 minute mark. He's about as good as it gets for secondary analysis.

 

[Jkwellborn 7,065]

There is also a block in the back on Guilbreau that probably should be called there. It was a pretty blatant, full extension push once he got around the guard. Ref appears to be looking right at it, so I'm not sure why that doesn't get called. Probably didn't affect the play, but hard to say. 
 

I don’t know that I’ve ever seen a block in the back called between the tackles or on a blitz.

[Jkwellborn 7,065]

Wait is That Guy P?

I wondered that earlier in the season.

[Nivek 17,424]

Damn, I think you’re right. 

Let me here him say ungghhh

[Pato del Muerto 53,589]

3 hours ago, Dark Horse said:

Damn, I think you’re right. 

As in Pete?

[D3zii 3,954]

2 hours ago, sith_horn said:

Rod Babers goes into detail about secondary struggles in this video. I've linked it to start at 15:09 and he finishes around the 25 minute mark. He's about as good as it gets for secondary analysis.

 

I agree with Rod. I’m not sure what’s going on with Gilbeaux but I could see limited snaps going forward, with more Holmes at CB and Barron back at Nickel, and I really hate that being from the same area plus all the snaps under his belt,  but he hasn’t shown any growth and has become a liability. 
 

I think Manny will be okay, think he’ll watch film, and have a great week of prep and come back focused. Could be lackluster with teams not going at him and probably not as focus on his technique.  And like Rod said, when the QB and WR do everything right, DB’s lose everytime and I think that happen a lot. 
 

Like I said Hill will be okay to, we’ve seen him drop in pass drops and be great at it, often getting INTs, just feel like the coaches put a lot on his plate and he felt like he had to make a play, instead of trusting his teammates. 

[Dark Horse 2,436]

1 hour ago, Pato del Muerto said:

As in Pete?

Guy Pierce

[Dahobbs 18,396]

7 minutes ago, D3zii said:

I agree with Rod. I’m not sure what’s going on with Gilbeaux but I could see limited snaps going forward, with more Holmes at CB and Barron back at Nickel, and I really hate that being from the same area plus all the snaps under his belt,  but he hasn’t shown any growth and has become a liability. 
 

I think Manny will be okay, think he’ll watch film, and have a great week of prep and come back focused. Could be lackluster with teams not going at him and probably not as focus on his technique.  And like Rod said, when the QB and WR do everything right, DB’s lose everytime and I think that happen a lot. 
 

Like I said Hill will be okay to, we’ve seen him drop in pass drops and be great at it, often getting INTs, just feel like the coaches put a lot on his plate and he felt like he had to make a play, instead of trusting his teammates. 

Gilbeau is better in run support than coverage. But it also seemed like we ran a lot more variation in coverage than normal and maybe that is why a few guys got confused. We've been so good at quarters and cover 3 that we've rarely had to do much besides our base.

I do think we may see more of Barron back at nickel against more spready teams (especially teams like ASU without a high priority receiving threat). He may serve more utility there than just locking down one side of the field. 

[bullet 1,631]

On 12/23/2024 at 4:24 PM, Thatguy said:

I apologize for the video. I couldn't find a full game copy anywhere so had to rip a few plays.

 

@Dahobbswas explaining a little bit of this to a fellow poster. ZSo thanks to him for getting the ball rolling. Let's get this out of the way right now. For those of you that didn't think Dabo was a good coach we just all fucked around and found out on Sat-ur-dee. Ole ball coach played us like a fiddle. They had a lovely opening script capped off with a double pick that we actually helped with but we will get to that in a minute. They got on the board first and then Sark and PK proceeded to drag their balls on Clemson's facemask by going on a 31-3 run. The offense did it's thing but PK's defense settled in and stymied the Clemson offense. However Dabo, as championship coaches do, found something. He sped up their offense when he got the right defensive personnel on the other side. Two things that did. We lost our pass rush because the guys caught in the game aren't the type that gets pressure. Second, when a defense is sped up they scrap the exotics and stick to simplistic defensive schemes like man v man or basic zone schemes. So by doing that they could slow our pass rush and manipulate our secondary. To do that your coaches have to be pretty savvy and have a QB with full command of the passing offense. So we shouldn't see that too often so we can all relax. If we do then PK is a dumb ass for falling for the same trick twice.

So let's get into it shall we?

I mean what the hell were the refs looking at here. First thing first I am wondering if this was a mistake by our secondary here to start. I know we are in man but instead of letting the routes tell us which man we are taking Barron and Guilbeau cross streams and allow the TE/Barron route to pick Guilbeau. The TE is literally blocking Barron well past the five yard mark for a pass that is being thrown past the line of scrimmage. Guilbeau is already out of position only to be physically blocked a second time, again for a pass thrown past the line. To miss an illegal pick once is bad but two times on the same play? Come on refs.

 

 

 

Two pretty flagrant blocks downfield.  Probably neither made a difference, but those weren't even subtle.

[BurntEyes 6,339]

Many of the more knowledgeable folks here have already noted it, but I think PK is mixing in a lot of different coverages for 2 reasons. First is, Clemson/Klubnik was the best passing offense/QB we've faced this year. That many new packages/looks are going to cause some errors with the DBs. However, it also caused some issues for Klubnik which was exactly the point.

Second, getting some reps in and figuring it out as well as extra film to process by the opposing OC is critical if we end up facing Oregon (which i think we probably will). That's the best passing team out there, but when Ohio State is on, they aren't too far behind. (I'm far more concerned about the OSU D than O, personally) I think we'll see more of that mix against ASU, but I think we'll focus on making them 1 dimensional and force them to pass. That will also cause some hand-wringing here as it will open some passing lanes, but worth the price imo.

Edited 13 hours ago by BurntEyes

[Thatguy 9,447]

2 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

Gilbeau is better in run support than coverage. But it also seemed like we ran a lot more variation in coverage than normal and maybe that is why a few guys got confused. We've been so good at quarters and cover 3 that we've rarely had to do much besides our base.

I do think we may see more of Barron back at nickel against more spready teams (especially teams like ASU without a high priority receiving threat). He may serve more utility there than just locking down one side of the field. 

Guilbeau has bad eye discipline and situational awareness. Manny hasn't really been tested because most teams don't have time to stand back and let routes develop down the field in long yardage situations. With them catching us with run stoppers on the field and not letting us sub you have to be more cautious as a DB and not jump on all the short stuff like you usually can because you know the ball has to come out. That's really all Manny was guilty of. These guys develop a clock in their heads and know when the ball should be out. Georgia is the same way. Their DBs are jumping short routes in long yardage situations because they know the QB cannot hold the ball. 

[Thatguy 9,447]

If you really wanna get pissed off about pass defense watch us vs Washington from the all 22. Penix could sit down and eat lunch back there. Rushers falling face first on the ground and getting back up and he still hadn't thrown the ball yet. Ugh.

 

 

[Patrick Bateman 3,983]

On 12/23/2024 at 3:24 PM, Thatguy said:

I apologize for the video. I couldn't find a full game copy anywhere so had to rip a few plays.

 

@Dahobbswas explaining a little bit of this to a fellow poster. ZSo thanks to him for getting the ball rolling. Let's get this out of the way right now. For those of you that didn't think Dabo was a good coach we just all fucked around and found out on Sat-ur-dee. Ole ball coach played us like a fiddle. They had a lovely opening script capped off with a double pick that we actually helped with but we will get to that in a minute. They got on the board first and then Sark and PK proceeded to drag their balls on Clemson's facemask by going on a 31-3 run. The offense did it's thing but PK's defense settled in and stymied the Clemson offense. However Dabo, as championship coaches do, found something. He sped up their offense when he got the right defensive personnel on the other side. Two things that did. We lost our pass rush because the guys caught in the game aren't the type that gets pressure. Second, when a defense is sped up they scrap the exotics and stick to simplistic defensive schemes like man v man or basic zone schemes. So by doing that they could slow our pass rush and manipulate our secondary. To do that your coaches have to be pretty savvy and have a QB with full command of the passing offense. So we shouldn't see that too often so we can all relax. If we do then PK is a dumb ass for falling for the same trick twice.

So let's get into it shall we?

I mean what the hell were the refs looking at here. First thing first I am wondering if this was a mistake by our secondary here to start. I know we are in man but instead of letting the routes tell us which man we are taking Barron and Guilbeau cross streams and allow the TE/Barron route to pick Guilbeau. The TE is literally blocking Barron well past the five yard mark for a pass that is being thrown past the line of scrimmage. Guilbeau is already out of position only to be physically blocked a second time, again for a pass thrown past the line. To miss an illegal pick once is bad but two times on the same play? Come on refs.

 

 

 

Shallow cross with a rub and pick, it's a nice play call vs man, however the entire play is over before it begins.  Look at Guilbeau's tech and stance.  He's shading the sideline?  WTF, if you're man why are your playing outside shoulder when you have the entire field to guard against?  Only thing I could possibly surmise is he's a little confused with Barron jumping into coverage right in front of him at the snap.  Otherwise, this is terrible technique and terrible effort.  I don't give a shit if you're getting beat and then have a pick to get through.   Fucking truck that motherfucker in front of you and do everything you can to at least keep him out of the EZ. This is what pissed me off.  Bad technique and lousy effort from Guilbeau, who's had a very inconsistent year.  Texas has it's holes in the secondary and they were schemed against last week, namely Muhammad and our slot coverage.  Also, Hill look a little lost at times but our LBs are the weakness of the defense overall.

 

On 12/23/2024 at 3:38 PM, Thatguy said:

This is just absolutely monstrous route running. Manny Muhammed is never heard from in games for a reason. That reason is he is really good and sticky in coverage and quarterbacks just don't want to test him. However, he is a guy who plays the man instead of a guy who plays the ball like Barron does. He has good hips and feet and it's hard to lose him in coverage. So when you do throw it his way he is watching the receiver to see when the ball arrives so he can attack the catch area. To beat him you need to be able to get separation. Watch one Bryant Wesco Jr here. Fires off the line and sells the outside release like its a fade. When he gets Manny's hips turned he chops his route down and turns creating separation. Against Manny that's not enough because Manny has the feet to recover. However, instead of sitting and waiting on the ball to get to him Wesco comes back and attacks the football, preventing him from recovering and breaking it up. Just top notch route running that you don't see every week. This kid is good. Take note of the helmet. Never a tell that the ball is headed his way until it's actually in his hands.

 

 

 

 

Not sure why this is highlighted..... Basic comeback or curl out route run to perfection and beating Muhammad's brains in.  Muhammad isn't as good as most of the fanbase thinks he is.  He's solid and I expect to be pretty good next year with all the reps this year but there's a notable drop off from Barron to him.  Remember, we've played some pretty terrible passing QBs this season and our secondary was rarely stressed like this.

 

On 12/23/2024 at 4:41 PM, Thatguy said:

This is the play that made a lot of people mad. 4th and 6 and we have Trey Moore on the sideline. Simmons gets free but we get no pocket pressure on the other side so all Klubnik has to do is drift away from him and buy time to throw. On the back end we are playing zone. Everyone seems to do their job except Ant seemed to be focused on what the QB is doing and loses track of the man that ran past him. TD. There are two other dudes avail in case the QB takes off. Trust your teammates.

 

 

 

 

This is Hill just getting lost in Zone coverage.  There's trips out to the right and he's shading inside shoulder which is pretty regular but once the receiver crosses his face he needs to centering up.  Then another goes right behind him (although he had eyes on him coming his way) and Hill doesn't see him slip behind.  His head was not on a swivel as they say and he's lost in no man's land and panics a bit by taking two false steps to the boundary, when what he's taught to do is to drift to the inside and really be in line or mirrored with the QB.  Go back and looks where Klubnik throws this (inside the hash) and where Hill is when the ball is caught (a good foot outside of the boundary).  Basically, this is just bad football.  Poor pressure on the edge and Hill is basically lost in Zone and it's a pretty easy completion.  I'd be worried as shit about breakdowns like this going forward.  Bad QBs generally don't get to this read before they break the pocket and run.  Good QBs score TDs. 

 

On 12/23/2024 at 4:49 PM, Thatguy said:

Again, absolutely no pressure from Burke. Meanwhile Simmons beats his man around the end. Moore needs to be in there on passing downs but if you get to the line quickly the defense can't sub. On the back end Manny playing tight trail but the receiver stiff arms him at the last moment and creates separation. This kept happening to him so they kept going after him. Not many receiving corps can do this to him but here we are.

 

 

Again, not much to this.... Muhammad just getting his ass cooked.  IIRC, this is the play where Muhammad probably has an illegal chuck early but there is definitely OPI with the push off at the end to create the separation.  College refs will miss this one 80% of the time so don't expect to get this call. 

I'll say this, I don't like Muhammad's lack of hands or bump here.  He's playing tight man but basically allows a free get off.  Look as he doesn't really get a hand on him until his hips have swiveled and they're running.  That's generally bad tech as you got the sideline, try and push him towards the sideline cutting off the throwing zone and constricting space.  He doesn't do that here and ends up paying for it.  I would say this may be bad tech but again, not sure what they're being taught.  I'd also like to see him shading the inside shoulder instead of head up.  Feels like they're expecting a lot from their boundary guy if they're not going to bump at all.

Thanks for the post and discussion..... IMHO, I think we do have some things to be concerned about.  Again, our QB competition this year was underwhelming and the secondary will be tested like never before the rest of the way.  I think the question is, how much can they learn from this and how quickly can they get better.  I'm very concerned about our ability to cover inside receivers and back who can catch.  Very. 

I agree about the pressure but we don't get great pressure without Simmons generally and we're not deep with guys who are natural rushers.  Good dudes who have good motors and try hard but not a ton of natural guys with bend and have natural understanding of leverage.  

[RoyalBevo21 961]

On 12/23/2024 at 4:49 PM, Thatguy said:

Again, absolutely no pressure from Burke. Meanwhile Simmons beats his man around the end. Moore needs to be in there on passing downs but if you get to the line quickly the defense can't sub. On the back end Manny playing tight trail but the receiver stiff arms him at the last moment and creates separation. This kept happening to him so they kept going after him. Not many receiving corps can do this to him but here we are.

 

 

I was screaming at my TV on this play.

1. Watch their LTs hands the entire play. Simmons beats him on a speed rush immediately. He hooks Colin’s hip with his left hand, swings around then hooks his other hip with his right and holds on for dear life. If you pay attention to Simmons stride you can see at the end it gets choppy since he’s being held so badly he’s losing forward drive. I have no idea how the ref missed that bad of a hold? 
 

2. That ball was money from Klubnik. I don’t think there are 10 guys at the NCAA level that make that throw.

[RoyalBevo21 961]