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Manchester-London-Paris-somewhere else this Spring


Dignan

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We are planning to take a trip this Spring Break to England, with a few days in Paris and either Amsterdam or Switzerland (Wife really wants to make this work). Here is what we have so far, but was looking for any input on great restaurants  (nothing TOO fancy, just whatever you like) and things to do. The highlight of the trip is that we are flying into Manchester, not London, and going to the Man City vs Brighton match on March 15. Can't wait!

So, our itinerary will look something like this:

March 14-15
Manchester, England - I've read/seen Rudy's Pizza is a must visit. For the game, we found hospitality tickets through the Man City site. Little more expensive, but we just had to do it. It has been our dream to see a Premier League match. One of the main reasons we are going at Spring Break.

March 16-19
London - Been told by a couple of friends that Fallow is a place we need to try. Officina 00 for Italian. Borough Market for more food. This will be our first time to London, so we will do the typical touristy things. We have one day that is fairly open. Should we take a trip out to see Windsor Castle? Go to Oxford? Somewhere else? We could take this extra day and head to our next destination earlier if we want. Our next leg will seem pretty rushed perhaps.

March 20-21
Amsterdam/Zurich - haven't decided. We would probably fly from London to Zurich, train from London to Amsterdam. Not a lot of time, but trying to make it work.

March 22-24
Paris - Our kids haven't been, so they want to see the usual highlights. 

Leave from Manchester March 25. 

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This is a positively insane itinerary.  Don't do this.

When are you leaving?  On March 13 (which is Thursday)?  And then you're coming back on Tuesday, March 25?  If that's the case, let me tell you how this vacation is actually going to go, because you haven't built in any time for transit between your destinations.  You're basically treating Zurich as though it is a suburb of London.  Fuck--Oxford isn't a suburb of London.

March 14: Arrive in Manchester mid-morning completely dog-ass tired after an overnight flight.  I have flown intercontinental a few dozen times, and I'm telling you that flying west to east kicks your ass (east to west is comparatively easy). 

I'm going to assume you're on the Singapore Air flight from IAH that lands at 9:30.  So you'll get to your hotel around noon, because it takes that long to get your bags, clear customs, and get into the city.  And that sucks, because all you want  in the world is a hot shower after an overnight flight, and your goddamned room isn't ready.  So you drop your bags at the bell desk and go find lunch.  You feel shitty.  Go back to the hotel, check in, get a bit unpacked, get a shower . . . and now good luck getting the family out of the room to do anything.  Maybe you go get a pizza for dinner.  Day over.

March 15: Match Day.  It's fucking Match Day.  That's your day.  That's it.  I'm doing that for Spurs in three weeks.  And Match Day is its own day.  So that's all you're going to see of Manchester.  

Oh, and you're still jetlagged.  It's going to be early to bed.

March 16: Travel day.  Let's just say you're ambitious and you want to get on the 7:55 train to London.  Sure.  You get in at 10:10.  Same deal as when you got into Manchester . . . God, was that only two days ago? It feels like a lifetime . . . you have to drop your bags at the bell desk and go grab lunch because your room isn't ready.  So what do you want to do your first (half-)day in London?  You want to do the typical touristy stuff?  Ok--so that's the Tower, the Churchill War Rooms, the Changing of the Guard, Horse Guards Parade, the Royal Mews (the kids love that), the London Eye, Parliament, the British Museum, St. Paul's.  You have time for one. 

Let's say you do the London Eye.  That's a good thing to do with your half-day, because there's a lot of shit over there on the waterfront that is super-touristy and good for kids.  Or maybe go over to St. Paul's.  That's also a good thing to do because you can walk down Watling Street and visit a pub for dinner and check out the City.

March 17 & 18: So these are your London days.  There's no time to go out to Oxford.  That's an entire day, and then some.  It's an hour train each way (and that's once you get to Paddington, which is going to take time just to get there).  It's not doable.  And why would you want to, when you're in London and you've never been to London before?  One day is the Tower and the British Museum.  The other is Parliament, Buckingham Palace, the Churchill War Rooms, and the Royal Mews.  Those are two days that are going to kick your ass.  There's really four days' worth of stuff in there.  But hey--we've got to get to Amsterdam.

March 19--I assume this is your travel day.  It's a four-hour train to Amsterdam.  And it's not like a regular train--you have to clear security similar to a plane.  Zurich is no better--you have to get out to Heathrow and then you're landing at ZHR.

So same deal.  Let's say you're super-ambitious and you get that 7:04 departure out of St. Pancras.  That puts you into Amsterdam at 1:00.  Drop the bags at the hotel and grab lunch.  You have time to see one thing.  Maybe just walk around the canals a bit.

March 20: Van Gogh Museum and Rijksmuseum?  Or the old city?  I don't exactly know, because this is your one Amsterdam day.

Honestly, I don't know why you would go to either Amsterdam or Zurich when any time you take in either city comes at the expense of London or Paris.

March 21: Hooray!  It's another travel day.  It's another four-hour train from Amsterdam to Gare du Nord.  It's 4.5 from Zurich.  It doesn't matter.  Same deal.  You have a half-day at most in Paris.  So what're the "usual highlights" in Paris?  I guess go see the Eiffel Tower today?

March 22 & 23: These are your Paris days.  So the Louvre and the Tulleries and the Champs Elysees on one day, Notre Dame, the Islands, the Left Bank, and d'Orsay on the other?  I mean, we're leaving out a whole lot.  But that's the time you have.

March 24: Travel day back to Manchester.  I mean, this is a flight, right?  Because the train is three hours back to London, change stations, and then two up to Manchester.  A flight takes a half-day, because CDG sucks.  But it is what it is.  And you need to be back in Manchester by the evening of the 23rd, because that Singapore flight back to IAH departs at 10:05, and you don't have time for a connection directly from Paris.  So maybe you see something in the morning, but realistically you're doing a lot of packing shit to go home.

 

So here's what you've done: out of ten full days in Europe, you've only got six days where you're doing actual Europe stuff--one in Manchester, two in London, one in Amsterdam, and two in Paris.  Realistically, I don't know why you would do that.  I really don't.  

It'd be one thing if you were flying from the United States to Hamburg.  Hamburg doesn't really have enough for you to see to spend a week there.  So maybe you want to bounce around northern Germany and the Low Countries.  But you're talking about Manchester and London.  And there's a shitton to see between those places.  London itself is a week.

Fly into Manchester on March 14 and stay in Manchester to the 17th.  That gives you an extra day after Match Day to see the city.  Then take a train down to London and see London for the next week.  With that time, you can take a day trip out to Windsor.  Or maybe you hit Oxford on your way back up to Manchester.

 

But please, for the love of all travel things that are good and holy do not do the itinerary you set out above. 

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2 hours ago, Dignan said:

Heh. Thank you for this. Believe me, I just want to do Manchester and London. The wife is pushing hard to "fit things in". I definitely don't agree with it!!!! So this helps my argument! 

I have gone off on this topic before, but that's not going to stop me from going off again: . . . I don't think Americans appreciate how big Europe is and how long it takes to travel from place to place.  And in complete fairness, that goes both ways.  I know people in Europe underestimate how big America is.  So I've had friends from Europe say "we'll be in Los Angeles on May 15--you ought to pop over and we can have lunch."  No, you stupid fucking limey--that's a three-hour flight for me, each way.

So same thing here.  London and Paris are not Dallas and Fort Worth.

And traveling intercity is a pain in the ass.  It's not just the time the train takes to get from London to Amsterdam.  It's that you have to get up in the morning and get all your bags packed and clear out of the hotel, take a cab to St. Pancras, and clear security and customs.  And then once in Amsterdam get to your hotel, get checked in, and get settled into your hotel.  It's at least a half-day ordeal.  But more than that, it's an ordeal.  Nobody wants to go out and do shit after spending all of your morning and at least some of your afternoon traveling.  You want to get a bite to eat, get into your jammies, and dial up Netflix.

And I don't know how old your kids are, but it's all even worse if they're little.

+++++++++++++

Let me say this--I sympathize with your wife.  I really do.  I used to be exactly like her.  To some extent, I still am.  Time waits for no man.  And who knows when I'm going to be back.  As I mentioned up-thread, I'm going to London in three weeks to see Spurs.  It's a quick four-day trip--leave Austin Wednesday and fly back Monday.  So really just Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday in London (and Thursday not being a real day).  But even so, I am half-inclined to take the Eurostar over to Paris because I can't want to see re-opened Notre Dame.

So I get it.

But it doesn't make sense.

Paris is still going to be there next year or the year after or the year after that.  And it deserves its own time.  As does London; as does Switzerland.  Amsterdam is kinda mid, tbh.  But whatever--these are all different trips, in just the same way that New York, Miami, and Las Vegas would all be different trips for a European visiting the United States.

 

eta: One other thing to add that I don't think enough people appreciate--Europe isn't just castles and museums.  There's also pubs and parks and cafes.  Part of traveling to Paris or London is just taking time to "be" in Paris or London.  Sure, you can hit a checklist of 1) the Tower of London 2) St. Paul's and 3) the British Museum in one day.  I mean, you could.  It'd wear you out, but those things are easy walking distance from one another.  But you'd have no time to sit and just be.

My best day in London was checking out the Tower and contemplating that the White Tower has been there for nearly a thousand years.  And then walking outside and seeing the Roman Wall, which had been there a thousand years when the White Tower was built.  And then just walking along Watling Street, which was a roadway for a thousand years by the time the Romans arrived, and stopping in at a couple pubs as they filled up with bankers and lawyers and other assholes getting off work in the City before heading home.

My best day in Paris was going to a grocery store and grabbing a bunch of cheese, sausage, a baguette, and a bottle of wine and going over to the Tuileries Garden and having a little picnic and just spending an hour reading a book and dozing in the sunshine.  And then after a while walking across to the Left Bank and strolling along the River until it was time to sit down at a cafe and having a cup of coffee and watching Paris.

Rushing around trying to see everything leaves you no time for that.  And paradoxically, I think you end up coming away without any real "experience."  I mean, yeah, you saw the Tower of London.  But did you really get the experience that you can't get by watching a documentary about the Tower of London?

Slow the hell down and experience shit.

Edited by Ghost of LL
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What everyone else here has said.  Last year, I was in London for work, and then "popped over" to Paris for the weekend. It worked for me as I was NOT doing touristy things. I was just wandering, shopping at brocantes, other shopping (but of course!), drinking great wine, and having great meals. Other than a few planned meals, I had no plans, so that worked out really well, as the weather both times was pretty shitty (rain is omnipresent in March and April in both London and Paris).

If this is your first time in London, I would do Manchester for 2 or even 3 days (I think there might be some cool stuff in Manchester, but I have not been that far afield yet), and then spend the rest of the trip in London.  

My recommendation to everyone is to plan one thing for the morning (or a couple of things if they are REALLY close together), and then one thing in the afternoon. Give yourself plenty of time to wander, pop into a pub and have a pint, and just marvel at the cool shit in London.

If you stay in London longer, you would have time to go out to places like Windsor (cool pubs, but honestly kind of meh (I worked for a company HQd there, so spent a lot of time in Windsor)) and Hampton Court (this I do recommend as it is really cool). 

As for restuarants, Fallow and Brat are both very good. In 2024, I did: Sunday Roast @ The Devonshire, Grazing Goat (Pub), Brunswick House, Speedboat Bar (Thai), Yashin Sushi, Dim Sum Duck (lines are atrocious), Zephyr Notting Hill, Caravel, Gordon's Wine Bar (celebration with the team, lots of wine, good cheese and meat), another Sunday at the Devonshire (but steaks this time vs. a roast), The Barbary in Convent Garden, Manthan, Kinkally (Georgian Dumplings), Noble Palace (team lunch), Kurisu Omakase, Dovetale, Paradise Green (Aussie resto), Mina's (team lunch), The Dove, Hammersmith (old school pub, definitely good food), Bibi (I went to Gymkhana in 2023), Mambow (probably the best place I went in London in 2024), The Swan in Milton Keynes (boozy Sunday Roast with friends), Mamapen (only Cambodian resto in London - Currently a pop up at The Sun & 13 Cantons pub - really, really good), and Kol (absolutely fantastic haute Mexican). I think the best meals I had were Mambow, Kinkally, Kol, Kurisu Omakase, and Caravel as the top 5. The Devonshire was really, really good, but I can have amazing steak here in NYC. The Dove was very good for a pub.

With kids, I think Kinkally could be fun (Georgian Dumplings are awesome). Mambow is a bit further afield, but worth the hike, IMO.

As for activities, if you are going to do the changing of the guard, skip Buckingham Palace and do Horseguards (see Westminster Abby afterwards). The Houses of Parliament are fun to go into (love seeing Westminster Hall), and can also be paired with Horseguards, and Westminster Abby (I did that same route with my folks in 2017 - we had a big breakfast, and then did things for about 5 or 6 hours, then had afternoon tea rather than dinner).

I love the Tower of London, and it has been years since I have been. I might be due for another visit. 

Borough Market is always good for a few hours. Leadenhall market is another area I recommend, though I have not been in years admittedly.

London has amazing museums, and I personally think that the National Portrait Gallery and the National Gallery are all worth stops, as is the V&A. 

I am starting to plan out my work trips in 2025, which I am sure there will mean 4-8 weeks spent in London. Definitely work on your wife to convince her to slow things down.

 

 

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Your itinerary is trash mainly because you're going to see City. 

 

 

jk.

 

I'm assuming you don't have kids.  How old are you?  I've done similar itineraries through those exact cities (minus Zurich) several times but only out of necessity (we have family in each of those places).  It's hard man.  If you're < 35 years old it's doable but honestly you won't get as much enjoyment out of it as if you'd take your time.  I would suggest 14-16 in Manchester, take the train down to London on the afternoon of the 16th and then take the train to Paris on the 20th.  Forget Zurich. 

 

There's not that much to do in Manchester.  A day trip from London to Oxford isn't crazy, I've done it several times.  Takes a couple hours by car or train-  if you leave in the morning you can get back at night for a late dinner after a full day in Oxford. But even if you don't leave London there is so much to do in London. Catch a show.  Go to a museum.  Go to a concert at St Martin in the Fields.  Go see a historical site.  Go shopping.  Go to Brick Lane, or Chinatown, or even go gambling if you want. 

 

See the sites in Paris (will you go back soon? If not spend a day at Versailles) but also don't do too much in one day.  One or two sites each day and leave time to just stroll and sit down at a cafe to peoplewatch or get lost in a neighborhood or walk a park.  There's a crispness in March in Paris where you can just sense the city start coming back to life from winter.  I can't explain it but you can sense the energy.  

 

 

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10 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

This is a positively insane itinerary.  Don't do this.

When are you leaving?  On March 13 (which is Thursday)?  And then you're coming back on Tuesday, March 25?  If that's the case, let me tell you how this vacation is actually going to go, because you haven't built in any time for transit between your destinations.  You're basically treating Zurich as though it is a suburb of London.  Fuck--Oxford isn't a suburb of London.

March 14: Arrive in Manchester mid-morning completely dog-ass tired after an overnight flight.  I have flown intercontinental a few dozen times, and I'm telling you that flying west to east kicks your ass (east to west is comparatively easy). 

I'm going to assume you're on the Singapore Air flight from IAH that lands at 9:30.  So you'll get to your hotel around noon, because it takes that long to get your bags, clear customs, and get into the city.  And that sucks, because all you want  in the world is a hot shower after an overnight flight, and your goddamned room isn't ready.  So you drop your bags at the bell desk and go find lunch.  You feel shitty.  Go back to the hotel, check in, get a bit unpacked, get a shower . . . and now good luck getting the family out of the room to do anything.  Maybe you go get a pizza for dinner.  Day over.

March 15: Match Day.  It's fucking Match Day.  That's your day.  That's it.  I'm doing that for Spurs in three weeks.  And Match Day is its own day.  So that's all you're going to see of Manchester.  

Oh, and you're still jetlagged.  It's going to be early to bed.

March 16: Travel day.  Let's just say you're ambitious and you want to get on the 7:55 train to London.  Sure.  You get in at 10:10.  Same deal as when you got into Manchester . . . God, was that only two days ago? It feels like a lifetime . . . you have to drop your bags at the bell desk and go grab lunch because your room isn't ready.  So what do you want to do your first (half-)day in London?  You want to do the typical touristy stuff?  Ok--so that's the Tower, the Churchill War Rooms, the Changing of the Guard, Horse Guards Parade, the Royal Mews (the kids love that), the London Eye, Parliament, the British Museum, St. Paul's.  You have time for one. 

Let's say you do the London Eye.  That's a good thing to do with your half-day, because there's a lot of shit over there on the waterfront that is super-touristy and good for kids.  Or maybe go over to St. Paul's.  That's also a good thing to do because you can walk down Watling Street and visit a pub for dinner and check out the City.

March 17 & 18: So these are your London days.  There's no time to go out to Oxford.  That's an entire day, and then some.  It's an hour train each way (and that's once you get to Paddington, which is going to take time just to get there).  It's not doable.  And why would you want to, when you're in London and you've never been to London before?  One day is the Tower and the British Museum.  The other is Parliament, Buckingham Palace, the Churchill War Rooms, and the Royal Mews.  Those are two days that are going to kick your ass.  There's really four days' worth of stuff in there.  But hey--we've got to get to Amsterdam.

March 19--I assume this is your travel day.  It's a four-hour train to Amsterdam.  And it's not like a regular train--you have to clear security similar to a plane.  Zurich is no better--you have to get out to Heathrow and then you're landing at ZHR.

So same deal.  Let's say you're super-ambitious and you get that 7:04 departure out of St. Pancras.  That puts you into Amsterdam at 1:00.  Drop the bags at the hotel and grab lunch.  You have time to see one thing.  Maybe just walk around the canals a bit.

March 20: Van Gogh Museum and Rijksmuseum?  Or the old city?  I don't exactly know, because this is your one Amsterdam day.

Honestly, I don't know why you would go to either Amsterdam or Zurich when any time you take in either city comes at the expense of London or Paris.

March 21: Hooray!  It's another travel day.  It's another four-hour train from Amsterdam to Gare du Nord.  It's 4.5 from Zurich.  It doesn't matter.  Same deal.  You have a half-day at most in Paris.  So what're the "usual highlights" in Paris?  I guess go see the Eiffel Tower today?

March 22 & 23: These are your Paris days.  So the Louvre and the Tulleries and the Champs Elysees on one day, Notre Dame, the Islands, the Left Bank, and d'Orsay on the other?  I mean, we're leaving out a whole lot.  But that's the time you have.

March 24: Travel day back to Manchester.  I mean, this is a flight, right?  Because the train is three hours back to London, change stations, and then two up to Manchester.  A flight takes a half-day, because CDG sucks.  But it is what it is.  And you need to be back in Manchester by the evening of the 23rd, because that Singapore flight back to IAH departs at 10:05, and you don't have time for a connection directly from Paris.  So maybe you see something in the morning, but realistically you're doing a lot of packing shit to go home.

 

So here's what you've done: out of ten full days in Europe, you've only got six days where you're doing actual Europe stuff--one in Manchester, two in London, one in Amsterdam, and two in Paris.  Realistically, I don't know why you would do that.  I really don't.  

It'd be one thing if you were flying from the United States to Hamburg.  Hamburg doesn't really have enough for you to see to spend a week there.  So maybe you want to bounce around northern Germany and the Low Countries.  But you're talking about Manchester and London.  And there's a shitton to see between those places.  London itself is a week.

Fly into Manchester on March 14 and stay in Manchester to the 17th.  That gives you an extra day after Match Day to see the city.  Then take a train down to London and see London for the next week.  With that time, you can take a day trip out to Windsor.  Or maybe you hit Oxford on your way back up to Manchester.

 

But please, for the love of all travel things that are good and holy do not do the itinerary you set out above. 

This might be my new favorite post on this board.  So much truth.

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I'll echo the previous sentiments...cut the # of cities you want to visit.  And how old are your kids?  You can easily, easily fill a week in London as a first-timer and never remotely feel bored, many of the sites and museums have been mentioned but you haven't gotten to the shopping and theatre options yet, several GREAT shows that kids love.   For shopping there's Hamleys, Harrods, and a billion other awesome options.

Day trips from London my kids have loved...Warwick Castle and Portsmouth Dockyard.

Also, IF Paris was a must I'd personally do Manchester - Paris - London.

So much depends on your kids ages, in my opinion.

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7 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

eta: One other thing to add that I don't think enough people appreciate--Europe isn't just castles and museums.  There's also pubs and parks and cafes.  Part of traveling to Paris or London is just taking time to "be" in Paris or London.  Sure, you can hit a checklist of 1) the Tower of London 2) St. Paul's and 3) the British Museum in one day.  I mean, you could.  It'd wear you out, but those things are easy walking distance from one another.  But you'd have no time to sit and just be.

Listen to this advice. It might not work if you have kids in tow, but my wife and I plan for one thing in the morning and one thing in the afternoon. We give ourselves plenty of time to enjoy coffee in the morning and wine in the afternoon. Enjoying the city and letting yourself sink into wherever you are is the best part of vacation.

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yeah... if anybody remembers, we did Germany-Strasbourg-Normandy-Brest-Paris- Florence-Rome-Dublin back in the spring, our first time. 

it was not too much for us and we had an absolute blast...but we were over there almost a full month. and i purposely planned for 'down' days to rest/recuperate. we did end up canceling a couple of tours (in Paris and Florence) once we'd been there a couple of weeks, not really from exhaustion but more bc we were enjoying just 'hanging out' places so much.

i don't regret our itinerary at all as it was damn near perfect, but i do agree that if you only have a week of spring break, you probably don't want to be so ambitious. 

have fun! we sure did 😊

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Totally agree with what has been said.  The first time I took the wife and kid to London we did 7 days in London.  The British Museum, Tower of London, Westminster Abbey, Buckingham Palace, Churchill War Rooms, etc… take days to see and explore.  I recommend the British Library also as their “treasure room” had some cool stuff.  We also took the train for a day to Stonehenge and Bath.  Another day we did Windsor and Windsor Castle.   We spent time one day out in Greenwich to see the Royal Observatory and Cutty Sark ship.  We didn’t have time to go to Oxford and some other places which just shows there is tons to do just in London and the train rides out side of town.  Also, like others have said you do the tourist stuff but you need to spend time roaming the streets, museums, pubs to get a feel for being in London.  My wife is one of those plan everything day out fully and it takes away from just enjoying a city so I have had to work to break her from that.  Do Paris a different trip as that also can take a week of wandering around Paris and different parts of France.  

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