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3rd Qtr vs ASU. What went wrong?


Thatguy

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4 minutes ago, Had Enough said:

Just for a little added context here on the play action.  Ewers has a higher completion percentage, better TD/Int rate, higher yards per attempt and better sack rate with play action than with no play action.

The lack of a run within a game is likely not that impactful within a game.  The team prepares on what you’ve done collectively and with how they expect them to attack.  It’s gonna be difficult in game to ask your 2nd and 3rd level defenders to not react to what they’ve practiced for two weeks.  And it’s likely that if the run defense is successful, it will reinforce them to react to play action in a similar manner because they’re likely playing downhill.

That was entirely opposite of what happened in the last four drives. Sark barely gave the run any thought let Quinn sling it and he led four straight scoring drives with virtually no play action and only one that resulted in a positive play (albeit a bad ass TD).

Edited by troph
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For the next two games, we need to become the very best version of the 1976 Oakland Raiders we can be.  A long time ago I read that John Madden went to Kenny Stabler, who called all of his own plays, before the season to tell him he wanted to make a simple change.  Instead of running to set up the pass, Madden wanted Stabler to pass to set up the run.  It worked like a charm!  Raiders won the whole thing, and this was before Kenny lost his fastball and could throw the ball deep.   That team had some of the best receivers in the decade, with Cliff Branch the speedster, Biletnikoff the possession receiver, and Dave Casper the tight end.  Teams were plenty confused about what was coming.  

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13 minutes ago, troph said:

That was entirely opposite of what happened in the last four drives. Sark barely gave the run any thought let Quinn sling it and he led four straight scoring drives with virtually no play action and only one that resulted in a positive play (albeit a bad ass TD).

My first paragraph was in reference to the season on the whole.  Play action is Sarks idea of offense.  It’s going to continue.

Posters here get their drawers all bunched up about shit.  
 

If you’re talking the two missed FG drives and the two OT drives, you’re only talking two scoring drives.  The easy TD was play action.  The other was a great play but incredibly stupid defensive play call.  One was a two minute drive so not standard offense.  The other, yes, was a missed FG from 48 yards out, but we didn’t put it in the end zone.  And it wasn’t a short field goal either.  

We can win many ways.  Even if the run game is not successful, the opponent respects it.  We can certainly be successful throwing it too.

Sark may frustrate you, but the first and last TDs were direct results of his philosophies and tendencies.

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2 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Agreed. Just exposes your QB too much. If the backside of the defense doesn't bite he is all there by his lonesome. I would rather him boot out the back. He throws well on the move so that with a levels concept should work. Maybe he should go talk to Shanahan.

Or any wing T coach from the 1980s.

This is a simple concept that even is old people recognize from our high school days.

QE with a boot option, a TE curl or dig, a WR 7yd out, and a WR corner route should be a regular thing off of a GT Counter look.

But what do I know?

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1 hour ago, ztejas said:

The University of Texas is not paying Steve Sarkisian millions of dollars every season to not know what the fuck he's doing. 

There are dozens of jobs out there paying guys hundreds of thousands of dollars to design offenses and call plays for them.

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34 minutes ago, Had Enough said:

My first paragraph was in reference to the season on the whole.  Play action is Sarks idea of offense.  It’s going to continue.

Posters here get their drawers all bunched up about shit.  
 

If you’re talking the two missed FG drives and the two OT drives, you’re only talking two scoring drives.  The easy TD was play action.  The other was a great play but incredibly stupid defensive play call.  One was a two minute drive so not standard offense.  The other, yes, was a missed FG from 48 yards out, but we didn’t put it in the end zone.  And it wasn’t a short field goal either.  

We can win many ways.  Even if the run game is not successful, the opponent respects it.  We can certainly be successful throwing it too.

Sark may frustrate you, but the first and last TDs were direct results of his philosophies and tendencies.

Uh QE led Texas on 4 scoring drives it’s not his fault the kicker boinked them. And it’s not unheard of running the 4 minute offense at other times during then game. Lastly, 15 pass plays, only 3 were PA and yes one of them was totally bad ass. He went 12-15 and threw for what 160? 

PA is great when the run game is going and for most of the season it was, I don’t think sark should abandon it but when the run game is totally shut down - two Georgia games and ASU, just spread them out and sling it. Short drop backs to avoid the rush and let your talented WRs make plays. It worked. 
 

and I gave him credit for the misdirection PA to helm even called it bad ass multiple times - but he goes to that well too often imo. He did that once in the last 4 drives. And it was MONEY. 

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2 hours ago, Thatguy said:

I drew this up really quickly just to show y'all what I mean. Fake the stretch play and Quinn keeps it and boots out the back door. You pull Helm across the formation like he is kicking out the DE and he keeps  going out into the flat. The backside TE, Juan Davis, seals the DE from pursuing Quinn. The backside receiver runs a deep corner. Playside receiver runs a deep drag. You can run a screen back to the other side as well off this as the pursuit is now flowing with the QB.

 

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Yep. We ran this out of the I and didn't zone block.  Pull the backside GT just like a run. TE would chip the RDE then release, FB comes to clean up DE (where you have TE doing the work). Defense flows left with the run action. QB boots out right and there are 4 on 2 (QB run as an option).

I loved being that drag or that flag. The drag put you in a bit of danger which was fun. The flag put you in the end zone if the safety jumped the drag.

And if that DE isn't a demon, you can release the TE across the face of the LBs and split the safeties for eye candy (probably wouldn't want to throw back there).

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My bottom line is this - sark wins when his team runs effectively. Great do that. But sometimes the other team stops his run game and that’s when he loses. He needs to plan to win running the ball but he needs to prepare for what happens when his team can’t. To date, his answer is to keep trying and keep using PA in the pass game. I contend that he needs to have an alternate plan on how to win in the unwanted situation where he can’t run the ball and I don’t think that’s keep running and keep calling PA passes. I think if the run game is shut down you speed them out go fast and air it out. 

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2 minutes ago, Longhornlove said:

Were you at the game? Because this is where the broadcast started. There is no way of knowing if it was PA or not.

image.thumb.png.dd3f3b422c90f4246da868c5b7896fc2.png

It was play action, they showed it on replay (plus you can see it on Skycast version). Play worked exactly as designed but of course with every play action the OL doesn't hold up so Ewers had to step up in the pocket a bit to buy the half second needed for Helm to get up the seam.

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Play action passes are fine provided it's against man defense and it's a play designed for really only one WR/TE target.  On the TD pass to Helm, he was going to Helm or nothing.  He didn't need his slow brain, just a set of eyes to see where the defender is in relation to Helm.  Open?  Throw.  Not open?  Don't throw.

If it's zone or NOT a play drawn up for a very specific WR/TE, then Ewers has to process information (what's the coverage and who's going to BE open...which is a future decision, not a "now" decision made with the eyes) and he needs every fucking millisecond for his brain to get rolling.  I think PA and other eye candy plays hurt him and should be replaced with shotgun snap, eyes downfield from the get-go.  

His slow processing is why he can't work the pocket when protection isn't great and even a single defender is getting through.  It asks him to mentally multitask and he doesn't have it.  PA, or anything with his eyes not downfield, and a soft pocket results in a panic/surprise response.  He needs to be processing all of the time or none of the time (predetermined target).

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3 minutes ago, Longhornlove said:

Were you at the game? Because this is where the broadcast started. There is no way of knowing if it was PA or not.

image.thumb.png.dd3f3b422c90f4246da868c5b7896fc2.png

I was there yes.  It was PA.  Great play call.  Helm was a TE on the right side.  He delayed and the S came up enough to get the needed separation.  The run action in conjunction with the Helm delay largely made the play.

My point is that when 2nd/3rd level defenders play downhill and are successful doing so they will continue to play downhill so play action can be successful when situations dictate.

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2 minutes ago, Hondo said:

Play action passes are fine provided it's against man defense and it's a play designed for really only one WR/TE target.  On the TD pass to Helm, he was going to Helm or nothing.  He didn't need his slow brain, just a set of eyes to see where the defender is in relation to Helm.  Open?  Throw.  Not open?  Don't throw.

If it's zone or NOT a play drawn up for a very specific WR/TE, then Ewers has to process information (what's the coverage and who's going to BE open...which is a future decision, not a "now" decision made with the eyes) and he needs every fucking millisecond for his brain to get rolling.  I think PA and other eye candy plays hurt him and should be replaced with shotgun snap, eyes downfield from the get-go.  

His slow processing is why he can't work the pocket when protection isn't great and even a single defender is getting through.  It asks him to mentally multitask and he doesn't have it.  PA, or anything with his eyes not downfield, and a soft pocket results in a panic/surprise response.  He needs to be processing all of the time or none of the time (predetermined target).

Take it to the Ewers thread whiny ass. He just won the game, have some respect.

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4 hours ago, Thatguy said:

 So we have a whole week to fill in before we put a foot in Brutus' ass. So why not fill our down time arguing about what went wrong in the 3rd quarter. We will eventually address other parts of the game, but right now let's look at the 3rd quarter on offense.

 

Sark comes out in 12 personnel. ASU basically has 8 men in the box and has a double linebacker blitz on. The worst thing we could do is run a slow developing, back to the field play action pass where our QB has to quickly diagnose where his hot man is while guys come untouched through the A-gap. So what does Sark call? A very slow developing back to the field play action pass. First thing you notice is Gunner Helm flashes open in the middle. Now I know that SOME of you guys are going to say I am making an excuse for Quinn when I say this but Helm has to sit his route down. By continuing across the formation your QB is going to have to look to see who is in front of you which takes more time. If you sit down in the open zone he can comfortably let the ball go. Regardless, this is an example of bad Sark. Too many times you put your guy in bad positions and literally kill a drive on the first play with calls like this. This same play without the play action and Quinn probably sees Helm quicker and gets the ball out. On to second down.

 

 

 

I’ve had an issue with our receivers sitting down in zone all year. I’m not sure what they are being coached but I feel like they run a route vs adapting to coverage more often than not. Sometimes those routes are long developing too and had they sat in a soft part of the zone we could get easy completions.

additionally I think the script is out on attacking our offense… double LB blitz in the A gap. It’s what ASU tried on 4 and 13 and we fortunately saw it before it fired off. But we struggled with it against UGA too. Some of our plays are too slow and it allows for blitzing defenses to blitz without abandon. Clemson almost achieved this in that lucky screen pass from Ewers to Helm.
 

sark thinks the slow developing will hold defenses and confuse them, however defenses have decided to fore go reacting and instead just come blasting in to disrupt everything. The defenses are starting to win if they can time it up with snap cadence and not allow us to check protections. 

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1 minute ago, Longhornlove said:

Take it to the Ewers thread whiny ass. He just won the game, have some respect.

Golden was big part of that final play. What a juke he put on his man when he stepped outside and then cut back inside. Coaches should be showing that to high school receivers around the country. He completely froze the defense and made it a very easy throw for Quinn. 

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And I don't even need to talk about this bulljunk. I will just post it.

   
This play was our opening play against Tech in 2008 all over again. The goal there is something quick and up the field. Get breathing room for the next 2 plays. But nope, like 2008, we run the slowest developing play possible when the defense is bearing down to make a play. We are lucky it was only a safety and not a defensive score.
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I don’t think that was man defense. Maybe ASU treated it as a 3x1 and matched up the CB with Wingo by virtue of that.  He for sure followed him.  It doesn’t make any sense for the opposite S or LB to man up on Helm.  There was no one overly aggressive in manning Wisner up either.

This is the TD play that people desire.  Sark dictated to them how he wanted them to react, and they followed suit.  If they somehow handle Helm, they have a Wisner problem.  Maybe not a TD, but a successful play.

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1 hour ago, Slacks said:

Or any wing T coach from the 1980s.

This is a simple concept that even is old people recognize from our high school days.

QE with a boot option, a TE curl or dig, a WR 7yd out, and a WR corner route should be a regular thing off of a GT Counter look.

But what do I know?

I just now saw this.  But speaking as a wing T QB from the 80s, I’m not taking a ton from that offense.  But maybe it’s bitter old man phase coming out.

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1 hour ago, Hondo said:

Play action passes are fine provided it's against man defense and it's a play designed for really only one WR/TE target.  On the TD pass to Helm, he was going to Helm or nothing.  He didn't need his slow brain, just a set of eyes to see where the defender is in relation to Helm.  Open?  Throw.  Not open?  Don't throw.

If it's zone or NOT a play drawn up for a very specific WR/TE, then Ewers has to process information (what's the coverage and who's going to BE open...which is a future decision, not a "now" decision made with the eyes) and he needs every fucking millisecond for his brain to get rolling.  I think PA and other eye candy plays hurt him and should be replaced with shotgun snap, eyes downfield from the get-go.  

His slow processing is why he can't work the pocket when protection isn't great and even a single defender is getting through.  It asks him to mentally multitask and he doesn't have it.  PA, or anything with his eyes not downfield, and a soft pocket results in a panic/surprise response.  He needs to be processing all of the time or none of the time (predetermined target).

Heh that guy who just saved our season is such a fucking retard amirite heheh

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5 hours ago, Slacks said:

Or any wing T coach from the 1980s.

This is a simple concept that even is old people recognize from our high school days.

QE with a boot option, a TE curl or dig, a WR 7yd out, and a WR corner route should be a regular thing off of a GT Counter look.

But what do I know?

Yessir. The play I drew up is one from memory from back in the day. That was shiny new offense back then. We don't run it though. Moving the launch point is like reading Mandarin for coach.

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6 hours ago, Had Enough said:

My first paragraph was in reference to the season on the whole.  Play action is Sarks idea of offense.  It’s going to continue.

Posters here get their drawers all bunched up about shit.  
 

If you’re talking the two missed FG drives and the two OT drives, you’re only talking two scoring drives.  The easy TD was play action.  The other was a great play but incredibly stupid defensive play call.  One was a two minute drive so not standard offense.  The other, yes, was a missed FG from 48 yards out, but we didn’t put it in the end zone.  And it wasn’t a short field goal either.  

We can win many ways.  Even if the run game is not successful, the opponent respects it.  We can certainly be successful throwing it too.

Sark may frustrate you, but the first and last TDs were direct results of his philosophies and tendencies.

First thing-It was a dumb defensive call in hindsight but how many times do we throw the corner? Their defense looked like they expected that route we threw and missed vs Georgia when Golden stuck his foot in the ground and faked the out cut. They jumped on it, then he cut it back vertical and was wide open. Bond or Wingo would round those cuts off(not sell it well at all) and it would be a contested catch. Good route running.

 

Those two throws off play action were good but how many unsuccessful ones did we have to trade for those? If you are far less successful than not you should probably not base your offense on it. You are right though. Sark is going to run it regardless so put your seatbelt on.

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6 hours ago, Had Enough said:

Just for a little added context here on the play action.  Ewers has a higher completion percentage, better TD/Int rate, higher yards per attempt and better sack rate with play action than with no play action.

The lack of a run within a game is likely not that impactful within a game.  The team prepares on what you’ve done collectively and with how they expect them to attack.  It’s gonna be difficult in game to ask your 2nd and 3rd level defenders to not react to what they’ve practiced for two weeks.  And it’s likely that if the run defense is successful, it will reinforce them to react to play action in a similar manner because they’re likely playing downhill.

You want to know why the stats say that? Because Sark calls play action all game and then on 3rd and 15 he asks Ewers to bail him out. That's mainly the only time we drop back and throw it without a play action aspect. So the stat is misleading if you watch the game. In this game when Sark decided to abandon the regular offense and start slinging it. Ewers was barely touched. Sideline to sideline 11 personnel is ideal for us. It opens up throwing lanes and cleans up reads for Ewers. We would probably run the football better out of it too but Sark doesn't really do it.

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5 hours ago, Hondo said:

Play action passes are fine provided it's against man defense and it's a play designed for really only one WR/TE target.  On the TD pass to Helm, he was going to Helm or nothing.  He didn't need his slow brain, just a set of eyes to see where the defender is in relation to Helm.  Open?  Throw.  Not open?  Don't throw.

If it's zone or NOT a play drawn up for a very specific WR/TE, then Ewers has to process information (what's the coverage and who's going to BE open...which is a future decision, not a "now" decision made with the eyes) and he needs every fucking millisecond for his brain to get rolling.  I think PA and other eye candy plays hurt him and should be replaced with shotgun snap, eyes downfield from the get-go.  

His slow processing is why he can't work the pocket when protection isn't great and even a single defender is getting through.  It asks him to mentally multitask and he doesn't have it.  PA, or anything with his eyes not downfield, and a soft pocket results in a panic/surprise response.  He needs to be processing all of the time or none of the time (predetermined target).

A couple questions-

Where are all these quarterbacks who run a slow developing play action play, turn around to free blitzers, and get the ball downfield anyway? I will wait while you list them.

If QE fails to diagnose coverage where are the INTs where he was fooled by the coverage?

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11 hours ago, Thatguy said:

There was a linebacker in the throwing lane. I am sure he was thinking about tipped ball INTs and decided to tuck it. It's possible he could've gotten it by him. To be truthful there are other throws available but a miss means INT.

 

Screenshot(651).thumb.png.b1f263ba72f6b314cbb5fa01d6e86f9f.png

The throw is there. The bigger issue is abandoning a clean pocket and self-sacking 

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8 hours ago, The_Great_Hornsby said:

Golden was big part of that final play. What a juke he put on his man when he stepped outside and then cut back inside. Coaches should be showing that to high school receivers around the country. He completely froze the defense and made it a very easy throw for Quinn. 

His route was perfection. It’s not surprising how he’s become the go to. His performance down the stretch was equally as impressive as Ewers.

3 hours ago, Thatguy said:

First thing-It was a dumb defensive call in hindsight but how many times do we throw the corner? Their defense looked like they expected that route we threw and missed vs Georgia when Golden stuck his foot in the ground and faked the out cut. They jumped on it, then he cut it back vertical and was wide open. Bond or Wingo would round those cuts off(not sell it well at all) and it would be a contested catch. Good route running.

 

Those two throws off play action were good but how many unsuccessful ones did we have to trade for those? If you are far less successful than not you should probably not base your offense on it. You are right though. Sark is going to run it regardless so put your seatbelt on.

Lazy route running is rarely called out on this board but I’ve seen several plays Quinn is blamed and the cut was rounded or the turn was the wrong direction, etc. 

3 hours ago, Thatguy said:

You want to know why the stats say that? Because Sark calls play action all game and then on 3rd and 15 he asks Ewers to bail him out. That's mainly the only time we drop back and throw it without a play action aspect. So the stat is misleading if you watch the game. In this game when Sark decided to abandon the regular offense and start slinging it. Ewers was barely touched. Sideline to sideline 11 personnel is ideal for us. It opens up throwing lanes and cleans up reads for Ewers. We would probably run the football better out of it too but Sark doesn't really do it.

Great point. In fact two times QE bailed sark out on third or fourth and long at the end. 
 

I love the PA game sark has when it works but he’s got to game plan for when it doesn’t. Pro tip - “trying harder” when the other team  has your number isn’t usually the answer. Sometimes it is but that’s only when effort is the cause. Against ASU and these next two games it won’t be an effort problem it will be a scheme problem. Air it out sark, 4-5 wide and go.  Run out of the spread now and again, especially with wisner and blue that can make a guy miss in space.

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10 hours ago, ztejas said:

Play-calling hindsight has to be one of the dumbest things in this sport.

The University of Texas is not paying Steve Sarkisian millions of dollars every season to not know what the fuck he's doing. 

There are dozens of jobs out there paying guys hundreds of thousands of dollars to design offenses and call plays for them. If y'all are such geniuses then go get one of those jobs. 

I can't help but laugh when people make this argument. A person who didn't play football doesn't have a chance in hell of getting a coaching job. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the average IQ of a Nividia employee is much higher than the average football coach. Two of the dumbest guys I ever worked with were former FB players. One played for Blowu and one for Bama. It was obvious they were there for only 1 reason.

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2 hours ago, Longhornlove said:

Below is where the game changed momentum wise IMHO. This is where they got hope. Fake punt. See the guy below the receiver, #23. Yeah he was lined up on the line of scrimmage and he is even with the receiver down field. Officials should never miss a call like that.

image.thumb.png.9efa6972412348be8ce992f34622265c.png

I thought the same thing, but I'm not sure they "missed" it.

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12 hours ago, Hookem2147 said:

For as often as he plays, Juan Davis gives us almost nothing as a receiver and mainly serves as just a warm body as a blocker. PFF has him as one of the worst run-blocking TE’s in the country as of a few weeks ago and I’m assuming that hasn’t changed the last two games.

He belonged at A&M-Commerce. Dude straight up stole a free degree from UT. Can’t be mad at him though, not his fault he was overrated.

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Just now, Helobious said:

He belonged at A&M-Commerce. Dude straight up stole a free degree from UT. Can’t be mad at him though, not his fault he was overrated.

He ran a terrible route on one of the first OT drives or the last in regulation if I remember - one of Quinn’s 3 incomplete passes in the final four drives. 

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9 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

 

2025-01-03 23-45-18.mov 28.11 MB · 0 downloads  

 

Well I'm old so whatever. The .mov was showing embedded in my post editor but either one should work.

Rename to MP4 its a browser issue and I wish Apple weren't such assholes. It'll work in an mp4 container just fine though. 

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The offense and Quinn were at their best last season when we spread them out and threw. 
 

Sark has abandoned this since Quinn’s midseason injury and tried to force the average run game. It was the safe play. 
 

Our strength and confidence is our passing game and Sark needs to get back to that if he wants to win it all. 

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13 minutes ago, Longhornlove said:

Worst game of the year for Jake Majors by far. He spent a lot of time on the ground and or 3 yards in our own backfield on run plays. I would guess his PFF grade for this game was bad. A big percentage of TFLS were because he was getting his shit pushed in. 

By a guy named Fite from Tatum, TX who had no big time offers because he's  5-11

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