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The running game vs ASU. What went wrong?


Thatguy

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We came into the game with a huge size advantage on the offensive line. All the talking heads had us pushing the ASU front around to the tune of a couple hundo. Then the whistle blue and our line kindly got punched in the mouth for 4.5 quarters.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRZ_FCcpqeruaSnooVjJOg

 

At the end of the day we had 23 rushes for 54 yards. So what went wrong? Why were we not able to run the football? Let's take a look and see if we can get to the bottom of it.

 

So we just punched ASU in the mouth. Twice. Here we are feeling all good about ourselves, thinking this was going to be a route. We cockily stroll out there in 11 personnel.  Banks and Goosby handle their men. Even Conner and Campbell are holding up well and Majors fires to the second level. Behind him come Helm who helps with Campbell's man and also releases to the second level. Majors gets a decent block but Helm doesn't get anyone and the guy who he would've gotten ends up making the tackle. Regardless, ASU has 7 in the box vs 6 blockers, so they were always gonna have a hat free. Helm needs to come off his block sooner to be in position to block. At most he needed to chip as Campbell had a solid handle on his man. If Helm gets that block its just Wisner and a single tackler in the hole and he has a chance. One of the things we will see a lot of is loaded boxes with ASU.

 

 

@Longhornlove@BurntOrange&White@Codaxx@Dahobbs

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4 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

We came into the game with a huge size advantage on the offensive line. All the talking heads had us pushing the ASU front around to the tune of a couple hundo. Then the whistle blue and our line kindly got punched in the mouth for 4.5 quarters.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRZ_FCcpqeruaSnooVjJOg

 

At the end of the day we had 23 rushes for 54 yards. So what went wrong? Why were we not able to run the football? Let's take a look and see if we can get to the bottom of it.

 

So we just punched ASU in the mouth. Twice. Here we are feeling all good about ourselves, thinking this was going to be a route. We cockily stroll out there in 11 personnel.  Banks and Goosby handle their men. Even Conner and Campbell are holding up well and Majors fires to the second level. Behind him come Helm who helps with Campbell's man and also releases to the second level. Majors gets a decent block but Helm doesn't get anyone and the guy who he would've gotten ends up making the tackle. Regardless, ASU has 7 in the box vs 6 blockers, so they were always gonna have a hat free. Helm needs to come off his block sooner to be in position to block. At most he needed to chip as Campbell had a solid handle on his man. If Helm gets that block its just Wisner and a single tackler in the hole and he has a chance. One of the things we will see a lot of is loaded boxes with ASU.

 

 

@Longhornlove@BurntOrange&White@Codaxx@Dahobbs

LOL, one of the better runs on the day......,ouch

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6 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

We came into the game with a huge size advantage on the offensive line. All the talking heads had us pushing the ASU front around to the tune of a couple hundo. Then the whistle blue and our line kindly got punched in the mouth for 4.5 quarters.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRZ_FCcpqeruaSnooVjJOg

 

At the end of the day we had 23 rushes for 54 yards. So what went wrong? Why were we not able to run the football? Let's take a look and see if we can get to the bottom of it.

 

So we just punched ASU in the mouth. Twice. Here we are feeling all good about ourselves, thinking this was going to be a route. We cockily stroll out there in 11 personnel.  Banks and Goosby handle their men. Even Conner and Campbell are holding up well and Majors fires to the second level. Behind him come Helm who helps with Campbell's man and also releases to the second level. Majors gets a decent block but Helm doesn't get anyone and the guy who he would've gotten ends up making the tackle. Regardless, ASU has 7 in the box vs 6 blockers, so they were always gonna have a hat free. Helm needs to come off his block sooner to be in position to block. At most he needed to chip as Campbell had a solid handle on his man. If Helm gets that block its just Wisner and a single tackler in the hole and he has a chance. One of the things we will see a lot of is loaded boxes with ASU.

 

 

@Longhornlove@BurntOrange&White@Codaxx@Dahobbs

Helm can come off sooner, but its a 4 yard gain. Not much to bitch about here.

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This time we trot out there in 12 personnel. We start the play with Juan Davis split out wide and then we motion him back in to a double H back look with him and Helm. ASU responds with what looks to be cover 1 and 8 men in the box vs 7 blockers. We run a Guard TE counter by pulling Campbell and Helm around. Campbell kicks out the playside DE while Banks releases to pick up the MLB. Helm works to the OLB coming down hill. On the backside Goosby and Majors wall of the backside DT and DE. Banks doesn't get a good block on the LB and ASU has one hat too many for us to block. Down goes Wisner.

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20 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

We came into the game with a huge size advantage on the offensive line. All the talking heads had us pushing the ASU front around to the tune of a couple hundo. Then the whistle blue and our line kindly got punched in the mouth for 4.5 quarters.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRZ_FCcpqeruaSnooVjJOg

 

At the end of the day we had 23 rushes for 54 yards. So what went wrong? Why were we not able to run the football? Let's take a look and see if we can get to the bottom of it.

 

So we just punched ASU in the mouth. Twice. Here we are feeling all good about ourselves, thinking this was going to be a route. We cockily stroll out there in 11 personnel.  Banks and Goosby handle their men. Even Conner and Campbell are holding up well and Majors fires to the second level. Behind him come Helm who helps with Campbell's man and also releases to the second level. Majors gets a decent block but Helm doesn't get anyone and the guy who he would've gotten ends up making the tackle. Regardless, ASU has 7 in the box vs 6 blockers, so they were always gonna have a hat free. Helm needs to come off his block sooner to be in position to block. At most he needed to chip as Campbell had a solid handle on his man. If Helm gets that block its just Wisner and a single tackler in the hole and he has a chance. One of the things we will see a lot of is loaded boxes with ASU.

 

 

@Longhornlove@BurntOrange&White@Codaxx@Dahobbs

Brace Yourself Here We Go GIF by MOODMAN

Your definition of "in the box" is too liberal.  There are 6 in the box, not 7.  The Safety is nine yards off the LOS, which is not in the box.  The definition of "in the box" is a defender within 5 yards of the LOS, framed by the tackles.  Here, here, here - not link picking those are literally the first three results on google.  Now if you want to argue that the Safety reads run and then comes into the box post-snap to make the tackle, OK.  But he 100% does not start "in the box" and we start with six blockers for six in the box.

Edited by Horn of Gabriel
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We tried too many times to stretch the defense out and try and seal the edge against their smaller, faster D-line.  We needed to pound them up the middle (your mom) more and more and wear them out.  They were also WAY over pursuing.  Not running many misdirection plays or reverses was criminal.  Maybe they were getting too much penetration (also your mom)?

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9 minutes ago, Horn of Gabriel said:

Brace Yourself Here We Go GIF by MOODMAN

Your definition of "in the box" is too liberal.  There are 6 in the box, not 7.  The Safety is nine yards off the LOS, which is not in the box.  The definition of "in the box" is a defender within 5 yards of the LOS, framed by the tackles.  Here, here, here - not link picking those are literally the first three results on google.  Now if you want to argue that the Safety reads run and then comes into the box post-snap to make the tackle, OK.  But he 100% does not start "in the box" and we start with six blockers for six in the box.

Your definition of "in the box" is from the 80's and why Sark kept calling running plays vs ASU. That dude has two jobs. Get downhill as fas as you can in the run game. Notice who makes the tackle. And be a deterrent for Sark's layer concept that we always run where we run a post over a 15 yard dig. They are closing the middle of the field while also loading the box. Dude has no man he is guarding so think he isn't a box defender if you want to but that's how you run for 54 yards on 23 carries. If Helm stays in he is a box defender.

 

 

 

Edited by Thatguy
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2 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

 

Your definition of "in the box" is from the 80's and why Sark kept calling running plays vs ASU. That dude has two jobs. Get downhill as fas as you can in the run game. Notice who makes the tackle. And be a deterrent for Sark's layer concept that we always run where we run a post over a 15 yard dig. They are closing the middle of the field while also loading the box. Dude has no man he is guarding so think he isn't a box defender if you want to but that's how you run for 54 yards on 23 carries.

 

 

 

Just for the record that play is RPO.  WR screen up top.

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2 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

 

Your definition of "in the box" is from the 80's and why Sark kept calling running plays vs ASU. That dude has two jobs. Get downhill as fas as you can in the run game. Notice who makes the tackle. And be a deterrent for Sark's layer concept that we always run where we run a post over a 15 yard dig. They are closing the middle of the field while also loading the box. Dude has no man he is guarding so think he isn't a box defender if you want to but that's how you run for 54 yards on 23 carries.

 

 

 

The definition of a Safety's job is to diagnose and cover both.  If Helm had peeled out into a up the middle route, the Safety would have taken him.  You're correct that the fail here is Helm's in blocking (the chip wasn't required) but that run still went for 4.  There are plenty of other failed runs to diagnose, this is actually not terrible.

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Just now, Horn of Gabriel said:

The definition of a Safety's job is to diagnose and cover both.  If Helm had peeled out into a up the middle route, the Safety would have taken him.  You're correct that the fail here is Helm's in blocking (the chip wasn't required) but that run still went for 4.  There are plenty of other failed runs to diagnose, this is actually not terrible.

No one said it was terrible. We are simply looking at the running game here. Some plays will be acceptable and some will be terrible. Now back to the play. With today's athletes if a safety is inside 10 yards he is a box defender. Count him. You are going to see Downs for Ohio State at this depth a lot on Friday. You better account for him in the run game.

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5 minutes ago, Horn of Gabriel said:

Brace Yourself Here We Go GIF by MOODMAN

Your definition of "in the box" is too liberal.  There are 6 in the box, not 7.  The Safety is nine yards off the LOS, which is not in the box.  The definition of "in the box" is a defender within 5 yards of the LOS, framed by the tackles.  Here, here, here - not link picking those are literally the first three results on google.  Now if you want to argue that the Safety reads run and then comes into the box post-snap to make the tackle, OK.  But he 100% does not start "in the box" and we start with six blockers for six in the box.

At the snap the safety immediately plays run. If that is a play action or RPO pass, the safety would have taken himself completely out of the play. He is moving forward, so he wouldn't be able to assist on Wingo or stay with Helm if Helm actually ran a route. It looks like they gave us a look that would convince us to run, and then took it away by having the safety immediately attack the run. 

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7 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

At the snap the safety immediately plays run. If that is a play action or RPO pass, the safety would have taken himself completely out of the play. He is moving forward, so he wouldn't be able to assist on Wingo or stay with Helm if Helm actually ran a route. It looks like they gave us a look that would convince us to run, and then took it away by having the safety immediately attack the run. 

Here is Downs for Ohio State at almost 10 yards depth. Here he is a moment later being someone of concern 4 yards off the line of scrimmage. And here he is setting the edge. Nowadays you have to count that guy in the box or he will murder your run game.

 

Screenshot(652).thumb.png.6852ccb0e9be16fcc3a022dd6a705d34.png

 

Screenshot(653).thumb.png.0b19f7e626187025a0fa159f26124609.png

 

Screenshot(654).thumb.png.c09a8ce199168628a492be3202784232.png

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In my experience of playing and coaching when you have a defense like ASU (small) they tend to shoot gaps to try and use their biggest strength. I believe Sark tried to many times to beat em to the edge when imo more success would have been up the middle. Our greatest strength in this game was our size and power, idk if Sark out guess himself but he kept running into a dead wall try to hit the edge this game 

 

it was also mentioned ASU kept calling out the play before even running it. This late in the season you are who you are so that’s to be expected, but we have to mix something up here 

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Sark needs to run the ball. Baxter would make a whole world of a difference this week, hell even a guy like Gibson.
 

Michigan punched Ohio State in the mouth. not every run was 3+ yards but they kept pounding the rock, and Ohio state still shows pussy traits and being soft. 

Nebraska tried to punch Ohio State in the mouth, they just don’t have the talent, but what they did do is slow the game down and keep that offense off the field, how do you do that? Convert at a high rate, they had 18 first downs and possess the ball for 35min. 

Tennessee didn’t have the back to punch, so they tried to air it out, 

Oregon doesn't have a good run game but they don’t want to run anyway, they want to spread you out and sling the ball. 
 

Sark needs to swallow his pride and adjust, he loves to throw the ball to open the run but imo he needs the game plan from the A&M game. You challenge your fucking O-Line and run the ball. Ohio State hasn’t seen an O-Line like Texas all year, I honestly believe success is there if we are consistent and the boys come to play.  Keep our defense fresh and theirs on the field. 
 

Caleb Downs is probably the best player in college football , the last thing you want to do it throw them dumb ass deep passes just to keep the safeties back. 

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35 minutes ago, D3zii said:

Sark needs to run the ball. Baxter would make a whole world of a difference this week, hell even a guy like Gibson.
 

Michigan punched Ohio State in the mouth. not every run was 3+ yards but they kept pounding the rock, and Ohio state still shows pussy traits and being soft. 

Nebraska tried to punch Ohio State in the mouth, they just don’t have the talent, but what they did do is slow the game down and keep that offense off the field, how do you do that? Convert at a high rate, they had 18 first downs and possess the ball for 35min. 

Tennessee didn’t have the back to punch, so they tried to air it out, 

Oregon doesn't have a good run game but they don’t want to run anyway, they want to spread you out and sling the ball. 
 

Sark needs to swallow his pride and adjust, he loves to throw the ball to open the run but imo he needs the game plan from the A&M game. You challenge your fucking O-Line and run the ball. Ohio State hasn’t seen an O-Line like Texas all year, I honestly believe success is there if we are consistent and the boys come to play.  Keep our defense fresh and theirs on the field. 
 

Caleb Downs is probably the best player in college football , the last thing you want to do it throw them dumb ass deep passes just to keep the safeties back. 

 Michigan came out with seemingly everyone on the line of scrimmage and just mashed Ohio State. Over and over. Then they dinked a little pass every now and again and just mashed them some more. I wish Sark had the patience to do that but he doesn't. He should. Wear them out. Frustrate their offense. But you cannot run OZ or WZ. You have to run right at them. Change out your RB and run at them again.

 

Edited by Thatguy
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1 hour ago, Thatguy said:

This time we trot out there in 12 personnel. We start the play with Juan Davis split out wide and then we motion him back in to a double H back look with him and Helm. ASU responds with what looks to be cover 1 and 8 men in the box vs 7 blockers. We run a Guard TE counter by pulling Campbell and Helm around. Campbell kicks out the playside DE while Banks releases to pick up the MLB. Helm works to the OLB coming down hill. On the backside Goosby and Majors wall of the backside DT and DE. Banks doesn't get a good block on the LB and ASU has one hat too many for us to block. Down goes Wisner.

Looks like you missed adding the clip to the post here..

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14 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

 Michigan came out with seemingly everyone on the line of scrimmage and just mashed Ohio State. Over and over. Then they dinked a little pass every now and again and just mashed them some more. I wish Sark had the patience to do that but he doesn't. He should. Wear them out. Frustrate their offense. But you cannot run OZ or WZ. You have to run right at them. Change out your RB and run at them again.

 

Michigan played a ton of 2 high vs OSU. The key to their win was 2 fold.

1. OSU tried to reverse the narrative and out-physical Michigan

2. Michigan stopped their run game with light boxes. They have arguably the best DT duo in the country. This is where I would love to have Sweat back for 1 game.

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10 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Yikes. Major had a rough game run blocking. And I don't see what purpose Juan Davis serves as a blocker. Either bring in another lineman or replace him with a receiver and stop condensing the formation. He cannot block. At all. 

Yessir indeed he did. Sark needs to bring back the Agbo package and run downhill on OSU. Major was struggling big time. Falling at people feet repeatedly.

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53 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Yessir indeed he did. Sark needs to bring back the Agbo package and run downhill on OSU. Major was struggling big time. Falling at people feet repeatedly.

I said it in another thread that kinda lead to this one being created. Majors got whipped, over and over and over. There is on play where the refs could have called holding on Fite where he literally  grabbed Majors and threw him to the ground like a takling dummy. he spent most of the run plays 3 yards in the backfield.

Edited by Longhornlove
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3 hours ago, Thatguy said:

 Michigan came out with seemingly everyone on the line of scrimmage and just mashed Ohio State. Over and over. Then they dinked a little pass every now and again and just mashed them some more. I wish Sark had the patience to do that but he doesn't. He should. Wear them out. Frustrate their offense. But you cannot run OZ or WZ. You have to run right at them. Change out your RB and run at them again.

 

I don't think we have to copy Michigan's blueprint verbatim, we're better than them and can do more, I honestly believe the A&M gameplan can work in this situation. 

We kept our defense off the field, and we pounded the rock. I think Sark is a smart man and knows when he has to switch things up. Its always the big games Michigan, A&M and even Bama from last year. We drop on Sark but when he's put in pressure situations where he has to perform other than the Georgia games he has shown up. He's just so quick to abandon the run imo. And I agree OZ and WZ is probably not gonna work this week. Michigan went staright up the ass and I think we can to. Hopefully Majors can hold up this week. 

 

I think we get Big Game Sark this week,

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We knew ASU had smaller, quicker defenders and Texas had bigger, stronger OL. If you’re Texas, you want a shoving match in a phone booth. If you’re ASU, you’d rather have a foot race or a dance contest in space. 

Texas’ preferred style in this matchup would be best served by running inside zone and (especially) Power. The double team is straight ahead blocking, not trying to move a defender perpendicular to your shoulders and feet while moving sideways. Defenders have to fight through a block to make the play, not outrace the blocker to a spot. 

Texas specialized in off tackle and outside runs due to their own RB talent. Both OZ and pin and pull outside allow smaller defenses the time and space to use speed and quickness to disrupt the play. 

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We don’t really have the OL or TE to do road grading yet. We certainly don’t have the backs for it right now either. 
 

It sounds good to say run the ball over and over, but that leans into our weakness and away from theirs. 
 

Blue and Gibson are also more likely to turn the ball over than Quinn is. 

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Some video examples of things I noticed re-watching the game.

1. The stretch runs were death against a fast, athletic defense that tended to shade against our run plays. Kelvin Banks is one of the best to ever play offensive line at Texas, but it's asking a lot to have him try to get to the inside shoulder of a DT who is 40 pounds lighter than him and is lined up over the guard.

2. Everybody just played bad at times. I have examples for just about every lineman missing blocks, but this one kills me. Watch Campbell. Majors does a great job on his block and instead of getting to the next level and trying to block a linebacker, Campbell just half heartedly tries to block the guy Majors is blocking.

3. I want to give ASU a lot of credit. They were just really well prepared for the Texas run game. Yes, Majors completely whiffs here, but ASU was fast as hell to the ball and made tackles all game. Their defensive staff deserves a lot of credit.

I have about ten plays clipped off, I can do more if people want and these are just examples of things I saw.

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We’ve seen multiple times our offensive line get butt fucked and I’m not sure what it is because then there are other times where they just demoralize everybody the only way we beat. Ohio State is running the football, wearing them down and keeping the ball out of their hands if our defense isn’t fresh Even Will fucking Howard is going to have a field day. We can’t have one minute time of possession in the third quarter and expect our elite players to be fresh and popping guys. We shut down cam in the first half until we got gas and then he made us his bitch in the second half one guy did I don’t know what needs to happen but the offensive line needs to impose their will and we need to not abandon the run. I love having three play 80 yard quick scores but we also need 14 play seven minute drives that just do moralize the shit out of their defense so that we can have our way with them. If we don’t run the football with any type of efficiency we are gonna get smoked like a Christmas ham. 

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22 hours ago, Thatguy said:

 

Your definition of "in the box" is from the 80's and why Sark kept calling running plays vs ASU. That dude has two jobs. Get downhill as fas as you can in the run game. Notice who makes the tackle. And be a deterrent for Sark's layer concept that we always run where we run a post over a 15 yard dig. They are closing the middle of the field while also loading the box. Dude has no man he is guarding so think he isn't a box defender if you want to but that's how you run for 54 yards on 23 carries. If Helm stays in he is a box defender.

This.

A Nickel in the apex or a Cover 3 WS are generally counted as box defenders.

Against some Quarters teams you have to consider both safeties in the box.

Edited by JBJ
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1 hour ago, ATLLonghorn said:

Some video examples of things I noticed re-watching the game.

1. The stretch runs were death against a fast, athletic defense that tended to shade against our run plays. Kelvin Banks is one of the best to ever play offensive line at Texas, but it's asking a lot to have him try to get to the inside shoulder of a DT who is 40 pounds lighter than him and is lined up over the guard.

2. Everybody just played bad at times. I have examples for just about every lineman missing blocks, but this one kills me. Watch Campbell. Majors does a great job on his block and instead of getting to the next level and trying to block a linebacker, Campbell just half heartedly tries to block the guy Majors is blocking.

3. I want to give ASU a lot of credit. They were just really well prepared for the Texas run game. Yes, Majors completely whiffs here, but ASU was fast as hell to the ball and made tackles all game. Their defensive staff deserves a lot of credit.

I have about ten plays clipped off, I can do more if people want and these are just examples of things I saw.

We are going to be yelling about pad level a lot in practice this week. 

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