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Just now, G650 said:

I wish more city centers would do this.

I have mixed feelings on it.  On one hand, it is regressive as hell.  Infrastructure shouldn't be just for the wealthy.  On the other hand, it should drive better practices to reduce stress on the infrastructure and mitigate environmental impacts.  

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Just now, Tuco said:

On the other hand, it should drive better practices to reduce stress on the infrastructure and mitigate environmental impacts.  

This. The average American just doesn't get the simple pleasure of first rate public transport. It will make you never want to drive for anything other than pleasure again.

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4 minutes ago, G650 said:

This. The average American just doesn't get the simple pleasure of first rate public transport. It will make you never want to drive for anything other than pleasure again.

Having grown up in Houston and lived in DC, this is 100% true. Good public transportation, particularly rail, is freaking awesome.

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35 minutes ago, Tuco said:

I have mixed feelings on it.  On one hand, it is regressive as hell.  Infrastructure shouldn't be just for the wealthy.  On the other hand, it should drive better practices to reduce stress on the infrastructure and mitigate environmental impacts.  

 

Just about every tax/fee/fine we pay is regressive. 

If we really are concerned about the poor, there are ways we can ameliorate that. A steeply progressive income tax being the most obvious.  

 

 

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I’ll preface this with saying idk the full scope of the tolling.

But I’d be curious how this affects traffic patterns. 
I could see a scenario where it actually concentrates traffic or causes traffic depending on demand pricing.

I could see a scenario where drivers try and ‘beat’ price hikes at certain times or potentially Uber drivers concentrating within the boundaries of / don’t take trips past the boundaries.

I feel a civil traffic engineer graduate paper coming on……

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6 minutes ago, Dnaguy said:

I’ll preface this with saying idk the full scope of the tolling.

But I’d be curious how this affects traffic patterns. 
I could see a scenario where it actually concentrates traffic or causes traffic depending on demand pricing.

I could see a scenario where drivers try and ‘beat’ price hikes at certain times or potentially Uber drivers concentrating within the boundaries of / don’t take trips past the boundaries.

I feel a civil traffic engineer graduate paper coming on……

Cameras are cheap and you're talking about basically a long skinny peninsula.  At some point the ducking and dodging will cost them more in time and make other modes of transport more desirable. 

Edited by locodos
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10 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

Just about every tax/fee/fine we pay is regressive. 

If we really are concerned about the poor, there are ways we can ameliorate that. A steeply progressive income tax being the most obvious.  

 

 

The very wealthiest among us don’t have income, which is the major problem with progressive income tax being your most “progressive” vehicle. 

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5 minutes ago, Dnaguy said:

I’ll preface this with saying idk the full scope of the tolling.

But I’d be curious how this affects traffic patterns. 
I could see a scenario where it actually concentrates traffic or causes traffic depending on demand pricing.

I could see a scenario where drivers try and ‘beat’ price hikes at certain times or potentially Uber drivers concentrating within the boundaries of / don’t take trips past the boundaries.

I feel a civil traffic engineer graduate paper coming on……

This little scheme works as long as you don’t have anywhere important to be at a required time. 

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5 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The very wealthiest among us don’t have income, which is the major problem with progressive income tax being your most “progressive” vehicle. 

The abuse of borrow-buy-die is incredible. It's gonna leave a hell of a tab and hangover for everyone else when the bubble pops

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Thanks heavens there hasn't ever been a convenient train to and from JFK to Midtown Manhattan. All those other major cities around the world have made the mistake of implementing one.

Making everyone take taxis has really made life much better for everyone and makes so much sense.

You can thank the taxicab lobby for that forward-thinking planning. They did it to help everyone. 

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2 hours ago, G650 said:

This. The average American just doesn't get the simple pleasure of first rate public transport. It will make you never want to drive for anything other than pleasure again.

There is nowhere in the United States with first rate public transport.  The problems here are many and manifest. Generally the right likes to starve it of funding so it crumbles. The left refuses to implement the social controls needed to maintain it.  
 

The answer is simple— funding, ruthless fare enforcement, draconian and immediate response ejection of anyone who does anything in the system but ride quietly and pay their fare. 
 

Big northern cities used to have this pragmatic democrats and republicans at the local level who would do this but those days are gone. 

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10 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There is nowhere in the United States with first rate public transport.  The problems here are many and manifest. Generally the right likes to starve it of funding so it crumbles. The left refuses to implement the social controls needed to maintain it.  
 

The answer is simple— funding, ruthless fare enforcement, draconian and immediate response ejection of anyone who does anything in the system but ride quietly and pay their fare. 
 

Big northern cities used to have this pragmatic democrats and republicans at the local level who would do this but those days are gone. 

How are you defining that where NYC doesn't qualify?

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6 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

How are you defining that where NYC doesn't qualify?

Have you been on a public transportation system in a large Central European or East Asia city? It is just as efficient, more affordable, cleaner,  quieter, and no one talks about the violent crime rate on the metro or bus because the violent crime rate on the system approaches zero. You can spend years riding it and never be next to a bum who barfs in your car. And you can see fare evaders immediately ticketed and shown off. 

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7 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Have you been on a public transportation system in a large Central European or East Asia city? It is just as efficient, more affordable, cleaner,  quieter, and no one talks about the violent crime rate on the metro or bus because the violent crime rate on the system approaches zero. You can spend years riding it and never be next to a bum who barfs in your car. And you can see fare evaders immediately ticketed and shown off. 

I have. Many times.  I've never felt NYC's public transportation was lacking compared to any of those cities which is why I asked.  Does the NYC Metro have a high crime rate?  I've never felt unsafe on there and I've ridden on that thing at all times of day in every neighborhood.  Even on their buses I've never really felt in danger.

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9 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

I have. Many times.  I've never felt NYC's public transportation was lacking compared to any of those cities which is why I asked.  Does the NYC Metro have a high crime rate?  I've never felt unsafe on there and I've ridden on that thing at all times of day in every neighborhood.  Even on their buses I've never really felt in danger.

It’s not near as bad as it’s made out to be, but not nearly as low as it should be. And that doesn’t include the “non-serious” shit that makes life generally  suck more: vomiting, shouting, Bluetooth speaker impromptu concerts, panhandling, etc.  

And of course it’s location dependent as well.  But I’m a current daily U.S. mass transit commuter and have done daily all over the world.  It’s not just my impression from tourism. Our system can’t compare on the infrastructure or general pleasantness.  

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2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It’s not near as bad as it’s made out to be, but not nearly as low as it should be. And that doesn’t include the “non-serious” shit that makes life generally  suck more: vomiting, shouting, Bluetooth speaker impromptu concerts, panhandling, etc.  

And of course it’s location dependent as well.  But I’m a current daily U.S. mass transit commuter and have done daily all over the world.  It’s not just my impression from tourism. Our system can’t compare on the infrastructure or general pleasantness.  

I see.  Pleasantness and vibe are going to depend on the local population.  Culturally speaking NYC has one of the worst reputations for that.  Comparing it to Tokyo, HK, London, or even Paris is going to make it look even worse.  In terms of getting you where you're needing to go I've found the NY metro transit system is just as efficient as any other I've been on.  

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8 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

I see.  Pleasantness and vibe are going to depend on the local population.  Culturally speaking NYC has one of the worst reputations for that.  Comparing it to Tokyo, HK, London, or even Paris is going to make it look even worse.  In terms of getting you where you're needing to go I've found the NY metro transit system is just as efficient as any other I've been on.  

90 percent of the referred to unpleasantness can be resolved by simply tossing fare-jumpers out by the scruff of their necks— that’s who is creating the problem. 
 

You notice things more when you ride daily.  If you 1 out of 20 rides is shitty, it’s not a big deal if you’re visiting.  It’s a different story if you take a minimum of 2 trips every work day all year. 
 

 You have a zero percent chance of a hobo vomiting in your personal car on your morning commute.  (There’s a reason I keep coming back to that). 
 

How often is too often to have to get yelled at for not coughing up “spare change” when you just want to get home.  A couple times a year, ok, yeah you suck it up. Weekly? Daily? Monthly? At some point you do start to see if you can budget parking and toll fees, especially if transport cost keeps rising.

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17 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

I see.  Pleasantness and vibe are going to depend on the local population.  Culturally speaking NYC has one of the worst reputations for that.  Comparing it to Tokyo, HK, London, or even Paris is going to make it look even worse.  In terms of getting you where you're needing to go I've found the NY metro transit system is just as efficient as any other I've been on.  

NO

The only thing NYC transit has going for it is size.   Trains are slow, loud, infrequent, and dirty.  The stations are filthy leaking and trash strewn.  PA announcements on the trains are a joke... even when there is a sudden arbitrary change in service. (like JK this train isn't going where we said it would) You only get the peanuts adult voice played through a blasted out 3" speaker.

Don't get me wrong, it's great for a US city.  But compared to pretty much any modern country it's a dog, just getting by on nostalgia.  Athens has a nicer system.  45mins from Eleftherios(Athens International) to central Athens 1 train straight in and it's probably 15 miles.   La Guardia to Central Park Bus>Train>Subway  Over an hour and 15 mins of that is walking and it's probably less than 9 miles.  Newark or JFK....ppppffffft

It's a pale shadow of what it could be.

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6 hours ago, TreatyOak said:

Thanks heavens there hasn't ever been a convenient train to and from JFK to Midtown Manhattan. All those other major cities around the world have made the mistake of implementing one.

Making everyone take taxis has really made life much better for everyone and makes so much sense.

You can thank the taxicab lobby for that forward-thinking planning. They did it to help everyone. 

In the early 80s there was a "Train to the Plane" that did that. It was simple and reasonable. No doubt why it's gone.

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6 hours ago, locodos said:

NO

The only thing NYC transit has going for it is size.   Trains are slow, loud, infrequent, and dirty.  The stations are filthy leaking and trash strewn.  PA announcements on the trains are a joke... even when there is a sudden arbitrary change in service. (like JK this train isn't going where we said it would) You only get the peanuts adult voice played through a blasted out 3" speaker.

Don't get me wrong, it's great for a US cityBut compared to pretty much any modern country it's a dog, just getting by on nostalgia.  Athens has a nicer system.  45mins from Eleftherios(Athens International) to central Athens 1 train straight in and it's probably 15 miles.   La Guardia to Central Park Bus>Train>Subway  Over an hour and 15 mins of that is walking and it's probably less than 9 miles.  Newark or JFK....ppppffffft

It's a pale shadow of what it could be.

Come on now, no need to be hyperbolic.  NYC transit's main achievement is how many people it moves every day.  Its coverage area is huge and does a great job with access points. Lines do go out of service but no more so than in London or Paris*. I've never been to Athens so I can't speak to their system but I suspect in terms of pop size and area NYC and Athens are going to make poor comparison partners.

 

*Of those 3 I've spent the least amount of time in NY so maybe Ive managed to go at favorable times.

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I don't mind the 'efficiencies' of mass transit in the NE or Chicago.  Some of the people/ stations  just make it a beating, not literally.  I don't feel threatened, but it's gross.  The panhandlers and people asking for your ticket when you disembark shouldn't fucking be there. That being said, driving in any major metro is also an ass-beating, including Dallas/ Houston. LA metro sucks royally.  There are trade offs, for sure.

If I'm going into NYC or Chicago downtown areas, I'm taking a train/ bus every fucking time.  Admittedly I am that tourist, or at most a worker for a week at a time. My son commutes 3X/ week into Manhattan, and it is always on bus, then a train.  He hates it, but he also is not willing to drive it either.

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10 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

Come on now, no need to be hyperbolic.  NYC transit's main achievement is how many people it moves every day.  Its coverage area is huge and does a great job with access points. Lines do go out of service but no more so than in London or Paris*. I've never been to Athens so I can't speak to their system but I suspect in terms of pop size and area NYC and Athens are going to make poor comparison partners.

 

*Of those 3 I've spent the least amount of time in NY so maybe Ive managed to go at favorable times.

  • I agree NYC subway is very large, in fact, I pointed that out in my original post as an upside
  • Yes outages do occur in all systems, but notification to riders is a HUGE negative for NYC.  There is a reason people say if your car suddenly empties out at a station you better go to.  This has happened to me and once on the platform I found out that my local had unexpectedly been turned into an express.  The only way I knew was moments before the doors closed there was a mad rush to get off and I went too.
  • Yes Athens system is small, but if the broke ass, bureaucratic Greeks can make it work, why can't we?
  • Syntagma Metro Station Archaeological Collection - Wikipedia

Syntagma Station stations look more like the MET than the subway.

If you love it and think it's world class, then we just disagree.  

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I’ve spent much of my career working in large cities in Europe, and I’ve taken public transport thousands of times. Not trying to act as some kind of authority on the topic, but my personal view is that subways/trains are good for some things and an absolute pain in the ass for others. Traveling between Munich and Frankfurt - hell yeah put me on the ICE train. Or London to Paris. Le TGV all the way. But I found myself gradually never using the subways/metros/tubes/U-bahns as i got older because they’re a pain and often not even faster than a car. Especially if you’re travelling with business colleagues or especially not with your family.  If you can afford it, you’ll prefer a car. 

Subways in NYC?  Sad to say but I don’t consider them safe for my wife and kids to be on. I’ll take them myself but not with my family or business colleagues. I pretty much only take them if I’m going to at a sporting event like the US Open tennis tournament where there are big crowds and a train that takes you right there. 

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17 hours ago, locodos said:

NO

The only thing NYC transit has going for it is size.   Trains are slow, loud, infrequent, and dirty.  The stations are filthy leaking and trash strewn.  PA announcements on the trains are a joke... even when there is a sudden arbitrary change in service. (like JK this train isn't going where we said it would) You only get the peanuts adult voice played through a blasted out 3" speaker.

Don't get me wrong, it's great for a US city.  But compared to pretty much any modern country it's a dog, just getting by on nostalgia.  Athens has a nicer system.  45mins from Eleftherios(Athens International) to central Athens 1 train straight in and it's probably 15 miles.   La Guardia to Central Park Bus>Train>Subway  Over an hour and 15 mins of that is walking and it's probably less than 9 miles.  Newark or JFK....ppppffffft

It's a pale shadow of what it could be.

As a 2x daily subway rider, pretty much every word of this is hyperbolic nonsense except with respect to LaGuardia. The subway is by and large frequent, fast and clean on the trains. Many of the stations are old and grimey, it is what it is. So are many of the stations in Europe. There are also a decent number of homeless people during real cold spells (like right now), but we don't have the social safety net in America to fix that in a humane way.

You can take the LIRR via AirTran from any terminal at JFK directly to Penn, at which point you can take any number of NJTs directly to EWR. It's definitely not as good as the RER from CDG, but it's pretty great. But most people prefer to take a cab and have something to bitch about.

 

13 minutes ago, Ravishing Rick said:

Subways in NYC?  Sad to say but I don’t consider them safe for my wife and kids to be on. I’ll take them myself but not with my family or business colleagues. I pretty much only take them if I’m going to at a sporting event like the US Open tennis tournament where there are big crowds and a train that takes you right there. 

This is hilarious. Won't someone think of the women and children! I need to text my wife to watch out on her way to work this morning! 

 

In any event, as someone who lives and works in the congestion zone, this is fantastic for me.  

 

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46 minutes ago, Reynolds Woodcock said:

As a 2x daily subway rider, pretty much every word of this is hyperbolic nonsense except with respect to LaGuardia. The subway is by and large frequent, fast and clean on the trains. Many of the stations are old and grimey, it is what it is. So are many of the stations in Europe. There are also a decent number of homeless people during real cold spells (like right now), but we don't have the social safety net in America to fix that in a humane way.

 

Totally agree

As for the station cleanliness, disagree.  The French have a culture of "the wild piss" and the Metro is much cleaner than the Subway.  

 

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20 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

I see.  Pleasantness and vibe are going to depend on the local population.  Culturally speaking NYC has one of the worst reputations for that.  Comparing it to Tokyo, HK, London, or even Paris is going to make it look even worse.  In terms of getting you where you're needing to go I've found the NY metro transit system is just as efficient as any other I've been on.  

I do not miss the subway rides in NYC. Some of the absolute rudest people I have ever encountered in my life ride those trains. No respect at all for their fellow riders. The homeless smoking in a car? Why not. Homeless guys pissing on the platforms no matter the time of day was normal. Police more interested in being on their phones than stopping fare evasion or evicting any of the other stuff mentioned was absolutely a daily occurence. Random clowns smoking weed whenever they feel like it? Sure. The buses were better only in the respect that you had no impromptu concerts or speakers blasting on them.  

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23 hours ago, G650 said:

This. The average American just doesn't get the simple pleasure of first rate public transport. It will make you never want to drive for anything other than pleasure again.

The crazy thing is how it makes you appreciate driving in the right conditions.   I love cars and love driving, in part because I spend almost no time stuck in traffic.  Everything I need in Austin is less than a mile from my house except the airport, and that’s only 15 mins away. Otherwise I’m traveling, usually to places with good public transportation. At worst, either I’m driving on open highway, which is a joy,  or somebody else is driving in traffic for me.
 

12 hours ago, StassneyHorn said:

I've taken the Air Train from JFK and gotten on a train to midtown with one other switch along the way. It was very easy. Fairly subdued. Nothing that would make John Rocker or my uncle upset.

The AirTran + LIRR is great. I’m spend roughly 1/3 of my time in midtown, and I never take a car between manhattan and JFK anymore. It’s 50-60 mins reliably between the elevators of my office and the gate. 
 

 

2 hours ago, Ravishing Rick said:

Subways in NYC?  Sad to say but I don’t consider them safe for my wife and kids to be on. I’ll take them myself but not with my family or business colleagues.

  
Ridiculous. 

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On 1/8/2025 at 10:43 AM, mdmost said:

It's always smart to put these things on social media. No one will ever catch on to your brilliant scheme. 

I think I know where that is, and in any kind of traffic he just cost himself 45mins to an hour doing that. If that’s all his time is worth, he’s welcome to keep his $15 IMO.  

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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Ze Metro... never saw anybody piss (I associate that with urine-soaked walls on country lanes) but les pique-pockets are fun...

[What'sThePointOfThisStory?]So my cousin from the Orleans Avenue Louisiana Canecutters is on vacation in Paris with her friends. Let's call her Delilah. Delilah and crew are on the Metro, and notice obvious scam in progress as kids come though their car, young boys slowing down their mark by walking backwards in front of him, while teen girl follows behind, trying to get his wallet. They warn the dude, get a little stink-eye from the thieves, who get off at that station.

Then down the line, Delilah reaches for her little blue change purse. It's gone. It's not about the money. That's her favorite purse. Bagpipes start blaring in brain as she leads her friends off the train, jump another going back. The Wild Hunt is on.

Sure enough, pick-pocket girl and her imps are still there. Delilah wades in on the doxie, "Where's my purse?" "Ah don't 'ave your purse!" so Delilah commences to WHALE on this chick like Clubber Lang, just dusting her ass. It's France, people believe in freedom of expression, nobody jumps in. After a little of that, Pick-Pocket Girl, still claiming not to know about a purse, starts throwing wads of money at Delilah, maybe a hundred bucks worth.

Tactical thinker, Delilah and her pals scoot, jamming loose bills in their pockets.

And later, she finds her blue change purse.[/ILikeStories]

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2 hours ago, Ravishing Rick said:

Subways in NYC?  Sad to say but I don’t consider them safe for my wife and kids to be on. I’ll take them myself but not with my family or business colleagues. 

How do you make it through everyday life so scared of your surroundings? If I told my wife that she couldn’t ride the subway when she’s in NYC for work or school, she would laugh in my face.

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20 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

The AirTran + LIRR is great. I’m spend roughly 1/3 of my time in midtown, and I never take a car between manhattan and JFK anymore. It’s 50-60 mins reliably between the elevators of my office and the gate. 

This is probably the quickest and easiest to ride part of the system. I liked the LIRR when I had to ride it. Well the drunk train back to Long Island at 2am on Friday and Saturday was not so much fun, but I did not have to take it for a lengthy period of time.

The Metro North was the best though. Easily the best of the public transportation I took. I spent one year living in Stamford and every morning I could take an express at 6am or so and be at Grand Central within 45 minutes. That was about a 35 mile or so train ride I believe. Pretty quiet going to and fro. The LIRR getting the connection now to Grand Central was pretty cool as well.

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31 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

I do not miss the subway rides in NYC. Some of the absolute rudest people I have ever encountered in my life ride those trains. No respect at all for their fellow riders. The homeless smoking in a car? Why not. Homeless guys pissing on the platforms no matter the time of day was normal. Police more interested in being on their phones than stopping fare evasion or evicting any of the other stuff mentioned was absolutely a daily occurence. Random clowns smoking weed whenever they feel like it? Sure. The buses were better only in the respect that you had no impromptu concerts or speakers blasting on them.  

Yeah, it’s not just “get where you’re going alive” that should be the goal.  
 

In 2018 DC decriminalized fare-jumping (over the mayor’s veto) and told officers that they couldn’t ask for ID from people who did jump gates, citing disparate impact on young minorities.  In 2023, after plummeting ridership, they cracked down on fare skipping.  
 

Results— assaults fall by 40 percent. Homicides virtually disappear. Vehicle thefts and attempted thefts cut by half (to explain here, the people from the city who were taking the train to steal cars at park and ride lots in the burbs weren’t riding the train anymore).  The crime that went up? Fare evasion.  
 

Now DC is expanding to crack down on buses, too and I expect better results.  But it’s slow moving and you still see fare jumpers taking their chances, anti-social behavior, etc. 

This may sound like a success story but it’s really a fail story because for four years the local authorities in a first world stubbornly stuck by a patently asinine law to prove their ideological bonfides and let ridership and revenue plummet before reversing course.  All they had to do was stop hitting their dicks with a hammer.  
 

It turns out that the One Simple Trick of getting rid of rule-breakers means there’s less rules being broken and fucking up everyone’s day. 

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24 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

The crazy thing is how it makes you appreciate driving in the right conditions.   I love cars and love driving, in part because I spend almost no time stuck in traffic.  Everything I need in Austin is less than a mile from my house except the airport, and that’s only 15 mins away. Otherwise I’m traveling, usually to places with good public transportation. At worst, either I’m driving on open highway, which is a joy,  or somebody else is driving in traffic for me.

 

100%. I clearly am a car guy, and I love a nice drive. Covid time was actually pretty crazy for this as we were considered essential, and was seriously like tumbleweeds on the highway.  But I drive 200+ miles a day for work on average, and it's absolutely soul crushing. I hate it so, so much. Really, being someone who loves a nice drive makes it ten times worse.

 

The penny dropped for me not just all the time I have spent in London, which the tube is great and all, but really spending time in Hong Kong and Copenhagen. Talk about some shit that makes life easy. God I dream of that shit when I am slogging through whatever miserable traffic on any given day.

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22 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It’s not near as bad as it’s made out to be, but not nearly as low as it should be. And that doesn’t include the “non-serious” shit that makes life generally  suck more: vomiting, shouting, Bluetooth speaker impromptu concerts, panhandling, etc.  

And of course it’s location dependent as well.  But I’m a current daily U.S. mass transit commuter and have done daily all over the world.  It’s not just my impression from tourism. Our system can’t compare on the infrastructure or general pleasantness.  

 

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22 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

90 percent of the referred to unpleasantness can be resolved by simply tossing fare-jumpers out by the scruff of their necks— that’s who is creating the problem. 

I recognize that I don't know the scope of this problem but I've watched news reports showing how in a minute you can see dozens of people jumping turnstiles or holding the exit door open for others in enter for free.

People like that should get a thump on the head by a billy club. Now if NYC wants to give students or poor people free passes (maybe they already do) then set up that system so everything is planned. 

 

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