Surly official camping and backpacking thread

[hookem2010 2600]

Whoops, don't feel like tracking down another link, but to summarize, TPWD has been leasing the land for the park from a corporation that sold the land to a private buyer, who does not intend to renew the lease. So likely no more public access and the $70 million in improvements just get torn down, I guess. The quest to pave the entire middle third of the state continues!

In more positive news, it looks like Palo Pinto Mountains SP will finally open.

[hookemATL 11611]

On 2/6/2023 at 10:17 AM, hookem2010 said:

Whoops, don't feel like tracking down another link, but to summarize, TPWD has been leasing the land for the park from a corporation that sold the land to a private buyer, who does not intend to renew the lease. So likely no more public access and the $70 million in improvements just get torn down, I guess. The quest to pave the entire middle third of the state continues!

Fuck this bullshit.  

[blacklab 11852]

made some friends camping on north Padre this weekend

 

[KeysPhoneWallet 807]

Want to get the family into camping so need a tent that will provide plenty of space for comfort luxuries. Looking at the expensive ‘buy it once and it will last a lifetime’ option 12’x 12’ canvas for $1000



And the 80/20 Costco tent 10’x14’ for $200




Thoughts??

[Firemans4Horn 17849]

On 1/14/2023 at 6:55 PM, JohnnyRage said:

The best of The Grand Tetons sold out in seconds on January 10th. That was surprising. It also wasn't a lottery, it was real time availability wild west like trying to score tickets to Aerosmith.

However, when I finally remembered to log back in a few days later. I noticed there was availability in some of the prime spots along the Teton Crest Trail. It was for group camping sites though, and after playing with the settings the minimum group size could be 7. There's three of us. Put out the invites for more, but it most likely will be 3-4.

Will this be a problem when we pick up our wilderness passes? Is this in bad taste? Do the Rangers eventually dole these sites out to any size party upon walk-up requests? Would they ever split up group sites between two parties?

 

 

 

Do yourself a favor and never worry about that shit. The induced demand by the NPS by having so few camping permits for hundreds of thousands of park acres is bullshit. My hiking group jumped through all the hoops for Teton Crest Trail permits two years ago and then you realize they are limiting campsites to like 30 people a day along a 40 mile fucking route.  
 

Best thing to do is say on day 2/3 that you’re camping in Bridger-Teton National Forest and focus on the first and last night Teton permits. Where you camp on day 2 and 3 is up to you 😂 

 

How to backpack TCT without a permit

[HollidayHorn 274]

12 hours ago, KeysPhoneWallet said:

Want to get the family into camping so need a tent that will provide plenty of space for comfort luxuries. Looking at the expensive ‘buy it once and it will last a lifetime’ option 12’x 12’ canvas for $1000



And the 80/20 Costco tent 10’x14’ for $200




Thoughts??

If you have Facebook,  then check out their marketplace. Tents and other camping stuff sell for dirt cheap on their. 

[Biff Tannen 45508]

11 hours ago, Firemans4Horn said:

 

Do yourself a favor and never worry about that shit. The induced demand by the NPS by having so few camping permits for hundreds of thousands of park acres is bullshit. My hiking group jumped through all the hoops for Teton Crest Trail permits two years ago and then you realize they are limiting campsites to like 30 people a day along a 40 mile fucking route.  
 

Best thing to do is say on day 2/3 that you’re camping in Bridger-Teton National Forest and focus on the first and last night Teton permits. Where you camp on day 2 and 3 is up to you 😂 

 

How to backpack TCT without a permit

Yeah, I've been navigating the PCT permit process for a couple of months.  I understand the reason behind permits, but I do think there's some unnecessary parts to them. 

 

Quick update on my PCT hike:  as I noted earlier in this thread, my actual permit start date is March 8th.  Well, the snow in the Sierra is on pace for a record year, or close to it, so making people start in March is just not safe.  I'm aiming to start on April 24th, even though my permit is March 8th.

There are ways around it and I actually spoke with a long time PCT veteran (trail name Yogi) on the phone for about an hour last week.  Basically, the idea for PCT permits is to spread out the impact of hikers each year, specifically in the Sierra section.  That said, Yogi's thoughts are that as long as you have a long distance permit, you're taking up a slot designated for hiking the Sierra at SOME POINT in the early season, so it shouldn't really matter when you get there.

Essentially, as long as I get to the Sierra and can reasonably say, "yeah, it took me X weeks to get here, I just went really slow" then who's to say I didn't start on my actual permit date?  With a start in late April, I'll hit the Sierra in mid-June instead of mid-early May with my actual March 8th date, which would be WAY too early and WAY too much snow still.  

 

There's still a good chance I'll have to skip the Sierra and come back anyway, but at least the April date gives me a better chance to have the snow melt off so maybe I can hike straight through.  

Sorry for the rambling post, but I'm generally a rule follower, so I've spent a lot of time and energy fretting over this permit process, when in reality, it doesn't seem all THAT enforceable, at least to the letter of the law.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Biff Tannen

[MalibuSheriff 1088]

13 hours ago, KeysPhoneWallet said:

Want to get the family into camping so need a tent that will provide plenty of space for comfort luxuries. Looking at the expensive ‘buy it once and it will last a lifetime’ option 12’x 12’ canvas for $1000



And the 80/20 Costco tent 10’x14’ for $200




Thoughts??

I wouldn’t recommend the big canvas tents due to weight.  They are fantastic for week-long elk hunting trips to the Rockies where you’re likely to get some snow but will not be practical for Texas or anywhere in summer.  The weight and beating or setting it up will make you hate camping.

I’d recommend an REI membership as their warranty program is outstanding and they carry excellent brands.  Depending on your family’s size, here are two car camping options Big Agnes that are well made and relatively light:

4 person:

https://www.rei.com/rei-garage/product/222999/big-agnes-bunk-house-4-tent
 

6-person:

https://www.rei.com/rei-garage/product/222994/big-agnes-big-house-6-tent
 

Biggest suggestion I can make is buying a couple of these stackable storage boxes from Academy.  Pack your tent, sleeping pads, pillows, and sleeping bags in one and then all your cooking, chairs, tables, miscellaneous in another.  You’ll go camping twice as much if you can grab and go and take all the ass beating out of it.

https://www.academy.com/p/plano®-storage-locker

 

[Updawg 2261]

This is good advice above


No way on the canvas tent.

[KeysPhoneWallet 807]

Even if my plan is to do car camping with my truck so I can haul that shit in?

[Biff Tannen 45508]

6 minutes ago, KeysPhoneWallet said:

Even if my plan is to do car camping with my truck so I can haul that shit in?

Nope.  It's heavy as shit.

[KeysPhoneWallet 807]

Nope.  It's heavy as shit.

My neighbor has one, and granted he uses it on week long elk trips. Is the consensus that it’s overkill for basic Texas camping??

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

Yes.

[Biff Tannen 45508]

2 hours ago, KeysPhoneWallet said:

My neighbor has one, and granted he uses it on week long elk trips. Is the consensus that it’s overkill for basic Texas camping??

The tent tech has gotten so good in the past few years there’s really no reason not to go pretty lightweight. Even the lower end brands are quality. 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

How many folks do you have in your family and what ages? We have a Coleman Weathermaster 6

That was great when we only had two kids. The screened porch area is nice if you get swarmed by bugs or if the weather is wet. We haven't used it since we had our third kid and bought a small pop up, so I can't really comment on how it works with more than two small kids. One thing I would look for for a tent in Texas is good ventilation. If you go to Big Bend over spring break you need something that you can either zip up tight or open up wide depending on what the weather does. But really you should pay more attention to whatever you intend to sleep on and in than your tent. A cold night on a cheap air mattress is miserable no matter what tent you have. A cold night on a good sleeping pad with a decent sleep system and even the cheapest tent won't phase you.

 

[KeysPhoneWallet 807]

3 kids ages 6-11. I will have to have comfortable sleeping arrangements and a good battery source for them to really break into camping. I expect that it will definitely be car camping for a while until they come to the point where being out in nature is sufficient reward vs being comfortable. So I’m looking at air mattresses, or cots with pads etc.

One big plus about the Kodiak tent is it can zip wide open with seven large screened in windows or close completely up when needed. Also having a stove inside seems like a good way to deal with cold nights without having to buy a bunch of expensive sleeping bags.

The price is expensive though, but I don’t want to pay $200-$300 for a typical tent that has to be replaced every couple of years if I can buy this once and it will last a lifetime.

The gamble is I spend $4k on camping gear and they don’t take to it and it doesn’t get used enough. There in lies the logic to buy a $200 tent and focus the difference on other camping gear until they really lock in.

[KeysPhoneWallet 807]

Also looking at one of these for $599 on Amazon

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

One thing to keep in mind is ease of use. Look for a tent that is easy and quick to set up and isn't too bulky. You want to have room for plenty of other gear as well. Also, don't get something that is too big or you might have trouble finding a site with a big enough tent pad to set it up. A collapsible rake is good to have for clearing leaves and sticks from your tent pad before setting up, and maybe a ground tarp to help protect the bottom of the tent from getting holes from the inevitable roots or rocks that you can't clear out from an area that will fit a bigger tent. With young kids you will probably want a cabin type tent that has near vertical walls so that you can stand up close to the edges.

[stc 1452]

Camped at Kickapoo Cavern State Park over the weekend. Definitely more in the middle of nowhere than I expected. Only open Fri-Mon, they've got 15 campsites and 4 park employees. Didn't do the cave tour because we had our dogs with us, but the hiking trails were nice. Was extremely dry out there.There was an Austrian man there camping with this huge rig...

[Your Mom 4798]

Keys, I’d go the other direction on the tent and buy multiple 4-person tents, as many as it takes to fit the family at 2 people per 4-man tent for maximum comfort.  It’ll feel more like camping instead of the whole family crammed into a studio apartment. 
That power system is a knockoff of the GoalZero system. I’d be concerned about longevity with a knockoff. 

[Biff Tannen 45508]

Honestly @KeysPhoneWallet I would just go to your local REI (assuming there is one) and let them know what you are looking to do.  Pretty much anything you will get there is going to be quality and as @MalibuSheriff said upthread, you have a 1 year warranty on everything.  If you get something and don't like it, take it back and exchange it or refund it.  

[hookem2010 2600]

For those experienced camping with kids, what age did you start and how did you break them into it? I've got a 9 month-old, so I don't think it would be very fun for any of us right now, but being stuck in the city constantly will drive me crazy. He's at a very fidgety stage right now, so even my one hour hikes/bird walks with him strapped to me in a front carrier are a bit of a struggle.

I'm located in Round Rock now, if anyone has specific recs for nearby locations to overnight eventually.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

When our youngest two were nearly four and one we went on a month long camping trip across the western US. We had a Nissan NV 3500 passenger van with a roof top tent and a set up that I made with a full size bed in the back that could be converted to couches along the back with a table in the center. The whole setup was just high enough that you could slide extra long milk crates below it, so everybody had a milk crate for their clothes and stuff, we had one for shoes and stuff, and one for camp kitchen stuff, etc. Once we got our rig ready, we headed west without any set plan (this was right when everything was starting to shut down due to covid). We went where we felt like going and didn't have to hold ourselves to any sort of schedule. It was one of the best experiences of my life. Kids will adapt to anything you throw at them. The question is more about if you can do what you have to do to make it work.

[Biff Tannen 45508]

You're killing me weather.  You're got damn killing me.

 

[JohnnyRage 1617]

On 2/20/2023 at 6:54 PM, KeysPhoneWallet said:

My neighbor has one, and granted he uses it on week long elk trips. Is the consensus that it’s overkill for basic Texas camping??

You're heart is in the right place. But most of us are only spend time in our tents to sleep or change clothes.

The answer to the question seems to be 4 people unless you are leaving out the Misses or a girlfriend, So 4 or 5, plus occasionally the kids are going to want to bring friends. The suggestion of multiple tents was a great one. The larger and cheaper the tent, the more suspect  it's performance will be in the rain or the cold.

ACTIVITIES. Being creative about things to do will be your key: hiking, crafts, singing, board games, nearby attractions, the biggest fire. Boredom and arguing is what is going to kill this, not your shopping choices.

 

[JohnnyRage 1617]

In regards to the DT 2024 Total Solar Eclipse, the last place I want to be is around Dallas and other people.

Beavers Bend State Park near Broken Bow, now Hochatown, is out of control and seems like a non starter. Seems to go over the southern part of The Ouachita National Forest in Arkansas.

You guys see anything? Also a time table past Missouri.

 

 

[Biff Tannen 45508]

5 hours ago, JohnnyRage said:

In regards to the DT 2024 Total Solar Eclipse, the last place I want to be is around Dallas and other people.

Beavers Bend State Park near Broken Bow, now Hochatown, is out of control and seems like a non starter. Seems to go over the southern part of The Ouachita National Forest in Arkansas.

You guys see anything? Also a time table past Missouri.

 

 

I’m not telling you assholes where I plan on being. 

[KeysPhoneWallet 807]

You're heart is in the right place. But most of us are only spend time in our tents to sleep or change clothes.
The answer to the question seems to be 4 people unless you are leaving out the Misses or a girlfriend, So 4 or 5, plus occasionally the kids are going to want to bring friends. The suggestion of multiple tents was a great one. The larger and cheaper the tent, the more suspect  it's performance will be in the rain or the cold.
ACTIVITIES. Being creative about things to do will be your key: hiking, crafts, singing, board games, nearby attractions, the biggest fire. Boredom and arguing is what is going to kill this, not your shopping choices.
 

5 people including the wife, who only wants to glamp and really wants a trailer or something of that sort.

The kids are 6/7/11, so growth in the 6/7 yr old boys should really be anticipated.

I don’t think I can make the multiple tents idea work until they get older bc they won’t want to sleep in their own tent.

I am thinking two queen sized air mattresses at least as a start for sleeping arrangements for now while the kids are small enough to share a bed.

I don’t think I want a nylon tent and I don’t think the weight of a canvas tent will be too big a deal because I’ll be camping somewhere my truck can get to when I’m with the family. I’m also not as worried about keeping the cost down as I am the quality of the tent.

So I’m debating between 3 options:

Kodiak 10x14 flex bow - quick and easy to setup up/pack

Kodiak 12x12 cabin style with enclosed awning - Very large footprint with a lot of guide ropes.

Kodiak 12x9 cabin style with enclosed awning - Small footprint without a ton of guideropes

The enclosed awning gives a bolt on extra room which can mitigate the smaller 12x9 cabin space.

[KeysPhoneWallet 807]

[Your Mom 4798]

I’m wondering if you might be underestimating the pain the in ass a massive tent like that could be to set up. The first one you posted a while back looks closer to the big old canvas tents we used to set up in the USMC that took 5 of us an hour to set up, granted your kids are probably smarter than any 5 average jarheads.  A basic 4 person tent with flexible poles will go up in 2 minutes by a single person.  Of the above, I like the simplest one, the 10x14.

But I get that you have pressure from the family with certain expectations on the tent.  Just make sure you factor in how much fun they’ll be having helping set set up and tear down that thing.  I think a big complex tent would quickly make my kids associate camping with more chores.  My perspective might also be different because we often camp one night at a time for a quick getaway or a different spot each night on road trips. If I were going to be in one spot 3 or 4 days at a time I might value a bigger tent more.

Also, guy lines are a red flag… there are so many campsites without room or suitable ground for staking in guy lines, another advantage of a freestanding tent.  

On mattresses, when we car camp we sleep on Exped MegaMats.  It’s the most comfortable camping mattress I’ve ever been on. Combination of foam and air.  Thermorest MondoKing, Nemo Roamer, and Exped Deepsleep are all similar.   

Edited March 1, 2023 by Your Mom

[Biff Tannen 45508]

1 minute ago, Your Mom said:

Also, guy lines are a red flag… there are so many campsites without room or suitable ground for staking in guy lines, another advantage of a freestanding tent.  

Very much this, especially in Texas where the ground is dry and rock solid most of the time.  Also, I've honestly never seen a tent with a franklin-type stove INSIDE.  That seems...dangerous?

[KeysPhoneWallet 807]

I’m wondering if you might be underestimating the pain the in ass a massive tent like that could be to set up. The first one you posted a while back looks closer to the big old canvas tents we used to set up in the USMC that took 5 of us an hour to set up, granted your kids are probably smarter than any 5 average jarheads.  A basic 4 person tent with flexible poles will go up in 2 minutes by a single person.  Of the above, I like the simplest one, the 10x14.
But I get that you have pressure from the family with certain expectations on the tent.  Just make sure you factor in how much fun they’ll be having helping set set up and tear down that thing.  I think a big complex tent would quickly make my kids associate camping with more chores.  My perspective might also be different because we often camp one night at a time for a quick getaway or a different spot each night on road trips. If I were going to be in one spot 3 or 4 days at a time I might value a bigger tent more.
Also, guy lines are a red flag… there are so many campsites without room or suitable ground for staking in guy lines, another advantage of a freestanding tent.  
On mattresses, when we car camp we sleep on Exped MegaMats.  It’s the most comfortable camping mattress I’ve ever been on. Combination of foam and air.  Thermorest MondoKing, Nemo Roamer, and Exped Deepsleep are all similar.   

This is great feedback. The 10x14 is easy to setup, free standing without guy lines, and weighs 80lbs across two separate bags for the poles and the body. It seems like it will have enough room for sleeping quarters. The big 12x12 with enclosed awning tent is a fricken house and weighs 150lbs and takes a huge footprint. One person can set it up, but it is a much bigger pain in the ass vs the flex bow design.

[Firemans4Horn 17849]

Unless you’re spending 4+ days camping in the winter in Montana there is no way I would buy a big ass canvas tent for family camping. 
 

Buy something with poles that you can put up in under 5 minutes. Your kids and wife will thank you. 

[TXLNGHRN10 341]

You're going to be tired AF on the day you have to leave, wife and kids are going to be cranky and ready to leave, there's a good chance it will rain. You want the easiest thing there is to put up and take down. 
Something like this and 2 queen air beds is what you need
https://www.coleman.com/tents-canopies/tents-by-style/signature-prairie-breeze-9-person-tent/SAP_2000008055.html

[Updawg 2261]

Just go buy a big cheap Coleman tent like above or something from rei or steepandcheap.

Can upgrade if you really like camping or buy a smaller sex tent for you and the wife later

Do not get what you posted above. You will never camp again after your first trip.

[The Royal We 3066]

Yea, I'm not sure why you are so hung up on a canvas tent for camping in Texas, but I'm 99.9% sure that everyone (including yourself) is going to hate you if you buy any of those posted above.  Those all have to be a royal pain in the ass to setup when compared to a modern/polyester tent.  And trying to set up that pot belly stove and keep a fire going is going to be more work too.

I have a 6 person tent from REI and have camped in it with all 3 of my kids multiple times.  They sleep on single air mattresses and I sleep on a cot; wife stays home because it's not her thing.

We've slept in it when it got down to 22ish degrees overnight and everyone, including my 5 y.o. girl at the time was fine.  The one I have is the earlier model of this:

 

REI also has an 8 person from North Face that looks amazing as well.  I bet you could set this up in 15-20 minutes after your first try to figure it all out- https://www.rei.com/product/206321/the-north-face-wawona-8-tent

[KeysPhoneWallet 807]

People here really dislike canvas tents huh??

[Biff Tannen 45508]

16 minutes ago, KeysPhoneWallet said:

People here really dislike canvas tents huh??

It’s just unnecessary with the tech we have now. You do you of course, but I’d have to agree with the people above in that unless you are just a glutton for punishment, you will probably have a very short camping career with a big heavy canvas tent. 

[The Royal We 3066]

1 hour ago, KeysPhoneWallet said:

People here really dislike canvas tents huh??

Sorry man, really didn’t mean to be a dick.  Just trying to save you from a lot of stress and anxiety. 
 

But maybe you are right and everyone else here is missing out. 

[DalTxHornFan 3085]

I love canvas tents.  The nylon ones are so noisy flapping in even the slightest wind -- hard for me to sleep.

I am a fan of single pole canvas tents like this:

Not fancy, but tried and true.

 

[DalTxHornFan 3085]

4 hours ago, The Royal We said:

wife stays home because it's not her thing.

 

This times 100!

[TwiceHorn 31311]

4 hours ago, KeysPhoneWallet said:

People here really dislike canvas tents huh??

I camped in Scouts in canvas tents like these:

As canvas tents go, they're light at about 40 lbs not including the three huge wooden poles and relatively easy to set up.

They fucking suck compared to even a 20-year old backpacking type tent.  Complete assbeating to set up and take down and 50x worse if they're wet.  And then, if you get home, you have to hang that 80 lb wet motherfucker up somewhere to dry.

Whatever space advantages they may have (few to none), are way offset by the pain in the ass in handling them, for the reasons mentioned.  We had to use 1/2" bent rebar stakes to get in Texas soil and damn near drive them with a sledge.

Do. Not. Do. It.

With the exception of the modern guyless tent you showed, all of those are for expeditions with paid sherpas to set them up and take them down.

[Firemans4Horn 17849]

4 hours ago, KeysPhoneWallet said:

People here really dislike canvas tents huh??

 

 

[JohnnyRage 1617]

5 hours ago, KeysPhoneWallet said:

People here really dislike canvas tents huh??

You have me convinced that you should buy a used A-frame pop up camper. Electricity, small fridge, air conditioner, stowage. Comfortably sleeps 2 on each side. Where the 5th sleeps: shrug emoji?

 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

Just rent a small RV a few times. It'll be much more comfortable and so much easier to set up. It also sounds more your style. Don't buy canvas unless you plan on week plus Elk hunts or going to rendezvous. 

[Chewbacca 7730]

Canvas is an absolutely terrible idea.  Why would you do that to yourself?

Rent an RV.  Momma will be happy and you will be much happier not spending 1-2 hours setting up and breaking down.

[DalTxHornFan 3085]

13 hours ago, JohnnyRage said:

Where the 5th sleeps: shrug emoji?

 

Sex tent?

[KeysPhoneWallet 807]

Canvas is an absolutely terrible idea.  Why would you do that to yourself?
Rent an RV.  Momma will be happy and you will be much happier not spending 1-2 hours setting up and breaking down.

I’m trying to understand, not to win some internet argument, so please try not to jump to the “well you’ve got your mind made up so you do you” response bc my mind is definitely not made up .

This tent is like a 5min one person setup and is freestanding. It’s is 80lbs I believe split between 2 bags for poles and body.

Is it really a pain in the ass because of setup and weight? It seems durable and has lots of windows for allowing breezes through.

The reviews I’ve seen on poly tents have sketchy stitching, aren’t that water proof, get muggy inside etc. the main benefit I’ve seen (excluding backpacking style camping tents) is they are cheaper which isn’t my primary thing.

Are these canvas tents really like a wet towel when it rains?

[Chewbacca 7730]

12 minutes ago, KeysPhoneWallet said:

I’m trying to understand, not to win some internet argument, so please try not to jump to the “well you’ve got your mind made up so you do you” response bc my mind is definitely not made up .

This tent is like a 5min one person setup and is freestanding. It’s is 80lbs I believe split between 2 bags for poles and body.

Is it really a pain in the ass because of setup and weight? It seems durable and has lots of windows for allowing breezes through.

The reviews I’ve seen on poly tents have sketchy stitching, aren’t that water proof, get muggy inside etc. the main benefit I’ve seen (excluding backpacking style camping tents) is they are cheaper which isn’t my primary thing.

Are these canvas tents really like a wet towel when it rains?

First thing you have to realize is that when it comes to camping, you will be doing 100% of the setup and take down.  That sucks hard, especially if it's dark, raining, etc.  So minimizing that is good.  Canvas tents are a bitch to put up and break down when the weather is good - wait until you get some rain and wind mixed in there.  

Second thing is that canvas tents are heavy as hell and take up a lot of room.  You will not have as much room for gear as you think you will as everything takes up more space than you think it should.  

I've done a lot of camping in my life.  Started in tents, then moved to a pop up trailer and now I'm building a Sprinter van.  Easier is better and if you are like me, you will enjoy camping more when it is less work for you (and you'll sleep much better getting up off the ground).  I like being in the wilderness.  I don't like setting up tents and packing up vehicles.  I cannot wait to roll into a campsite and all I have to do is get the van level and grab a couple camp chairs out of the back.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Chewbacca

[stc 1452]

59 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

  I cannot wait to roll into a campsite and all I have to do is get the van level and grab a couple camp chairs out of the back.

bought a 93 GMC Vandura conversion van during the pandemic and turned it into a camper. it has been extremely awesome for both convenience and quality of sleep.