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Pokoloco

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I'm done throwing money at lawyers for my son's troubles. He violated his community sentencing rules and is back in jail, he's begging for me to get him an attorney. I just can't do it anymore.  Is going with a public defender just basically giving up?  Not sure what answers I'm looking for here.  Do public defenders basically just do the minimum and go along with what the DA wants in the end?

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I can only say my brother was a public defender in Denver for many years before starting his own practice. He chose that job, took it very seriously, and still picks up cases as Dr Fear mentioned. His coworkers I met were the same. I'm sure it is luck of the draw to some extent based on the person and their workload though. Best of luck.

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I was a public defender as a young buck attorney before going civil to make money. Nearly all the other PDs I associated with were sharp and worked their asses off. Some of the private attorneys I knew would string a client's case along to ensure they get paid a larger fee while a PD has little incentive not to get the best possible resolution as quickly as reasonable. It is pick of the draw to an extent, but there are plenty of excellent PDs and plenty of meh private attorneys. 

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4 hours ago, Pokoloco said:

I'm done throwing money at lawyers for my son's troubles. He violated his community sentencing rules and is back in jail, he's begging for me to get him an attorney. I just can't do it anymore.  Is going with a public defender just basically giving up?  Not sure what answers I'm looking for here.  Do public defenders basically just do the minimum and go along with what the DA wants in the end?

It's luck of the draw. There are good ones and bad ones and a whole lot in between. In a motion to adjudicate or revoke, the state's burden is only a preponderance of the evidence to show a violation of the terms of community supervision. Someone local with a good relationship with the DA's office is best, because as stated above, Perry Mason moments typically happen at pretrials and trials, not revos. Have a hearing on the revo, the judge just gets pissed off for wasting time and goes above the state's rec. And you're not going to win one on appeal. If he is looking at time, posting bond is dumb, spend that on an attorney or not at all. If he is short on fines/court costs/restitution or supervision fees, I always recommend D or family give me a blank money order for amounts due so when I talk to ADA I can grease the skids, "you want me to write X County on this money order? yeah? then cut the state's recommendation. Or I'll just give it back to D or family." Also, if he has any other cases make sure the bondsman gets off the bond or bond is increased so he gets time credit on that case too, otherwise, not entitled to it.

Feel free to post more info like county/charge/allegations in motion and I may be able to provide better advice.

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Don't know about the luck of the draw with PDs but maybe it's time to avoid the slow road to jail.  A lot of times the State Attorney says, we will put him on probation or community control knowing the defendant will fuck up and likely get more time.  If he can do a reasonable amount of time and get it over, that may be the best option.  

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5 hours ago, Pokoloco said:

I'm done throwing money at lawyers for my son's troubles. He violated his community sentencing rules and is back in jail, he's begging for me to get him an attorney. I just can't do it anymore.  Is going with a public defender just basically giving up?  Not sure what answers I'm looking for here.  Do public defenders basically just do the minimum and go along with what the DA wants in the end?

Edited by Vegas64
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I’m sticking with my answer in post 2. 
 

He’s already about bankrupt y’all over this shit. Time to cut the cord man, and let him face the music.

You and the rest of your family deserve better.

If he gets a bad public defender, so be it. Those are consequences of his actions.

The more you pony up and bail him out every time, the less likely he is to stop fucking up. Why? Because why worry about consequences when daddy will fix it?

That’s kind of blunt, but I’m surprised that after the last time we discussed this (and your house, etc) you would even consider going through it all over again. 

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45 minutes ago, thunderlounge said:

 

That’s kind of blunt, but I’m surprised that after the last time we discussed this (and your house, etc) you would even consider going through it all over again. 

Really? you love your kids. This situation is the most fucked up thing you could imagine.  if the family is not in counseling over this then maybe you should consider that.

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One thing we should probably point out.  All courts/jurisdictions have an obligation to provide counsel for the indigent.

Some jurisdictions have an actual office, like the DA, called "Office of Public Defender" or similar, that hires and pays lawyers like a law firm to represent indigent defendants.

Others appoint counsel on a case-by-case basis, the lawyers volunteering to put themselves in a pool of counsel for this purpose.  Some out of charity or public service, others from desperation to turn a buck. 

The former tend to be more formally referrred to as "public defenders" while the latter tend to be called "court-appointed counsel."  Like everything else, quality varies immensely, but I think the "public defender" type system tends to provide better defense than "court-appointed counsel."

Public defenders usually have hideous caseloads, but have training, some interest in the job, some accountability for results, and their salary isn't tied to volume or dispositions.  The others may just be a judge's brother in law.

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13 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Sometimes, for those people, certainly the addict, you must give them the dignity to suffer the consequences of their actions.

I have this phrase pinned to my desktop as a reminder to myself, but have unfortunately had to say it to others as well.

I'm very sorry to hear that the direct and predictable results of your actions happened to you. 

Easy to say from afar but the horrible fact of the matter is that many people love their kids or spouse "to death". 

Until they get sick and tired of being sick and tired (like the rest of the family is) there isn't a reason for them to stop digging deeper in that hole.  

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13 hours ago, thunderlounge said:

I’m sticking with my answer in post 2. 
 

He’s already about bankrupt y’all over this shit. Time to cut the cord man, and let him face the music.

You and the rest of your family deserve better.

If he gets a bad public defender, so be it. Those are consequences of his actions.

The more you pony up and bail him out every time, the less likely he is to stop fucking up. Why? Because why worry about consequences when daddy will fix it?

That’s kind of blunt, but I’m surprised that after the last time we discussed this (and your house, etc) you would even consider going through it all over again. 

Thanks Thunder. It is the hardest thing to do, but I know I this is what have to do. He's not violent, highly intelligent, just an alcoholic. 

 

15 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

it would be nice to know what the consequences are for violating his sentencing rules.  Are we talking about 30 days or something longer?

 

3-5 years deferred is what he was initially sentenced to. He was put in the community sentencing program with strict guidelines, no alcohol or weed.  He broke it, they sent him to a rehab center, got caught drinking there, they sent him to prison for 6 months. He was released in July, was living in a sober living house, working, going to counseling, paying his fees.  They allowed him to leave the sober living and get his own place. He was working, paying bills, doing community service. Was going to "graduate" from the community sentencing program and tested positive for alcohol and weed on his court date.  They put him in county and issued an application to accelerate. So, I assume that means he'll get 3-5?

His initial charges:

Count as Disposed: DRIVING A MOTOR VEHICLE WHILE UNDER THE INFLUENCE ALCOHOL AGGRAVATED(DI1MAG)

Count as Disposed: DRIVING WITH LICENSE CANCELLED/SUSPENDED/REVOKED(DL1)

Count as Disposed: LEAVING SCENE OF ACCIDENT INVOLVING DAMAGE(HR2)

 

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Alcoholics need to be beat into a state of reasonableness before recovery can occur. I pray that one day he sees these difficulties as his most precious asset.

More than several of my most trusted long time sober friends had a judge that told them “ok Im done fucking around with you. On to the find out phase.”

And if it happened to my kid I’d go to Al-Anon and work through the program. I'd hate it, but I’d do it. It sucks that society warehouses alcoholics in prison, but what if he had killed a family while drunk?

I say this with the full disclosure that several decades ago I personally deserved to be locked up.

Edited by BearSchlong
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2 hours ago, BearSchlong said:

I can't speak to the lawyering, but learning how to “detach with love” is the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do as a parent.

I'm in lockstep with Reagan and Twice on this one.

The dignity paraphrase is plagiarized from you.

And, yeah, @Pokoloco, I'm afraid this is where you are "at."  Perhaps look at it this way:  he has a deadly disease that will put him in an early grave if not stopped.  Prison sentences pale in comparison to that, and, self-inflicted ass-kickings are the surest way to drive him to long term sobriety.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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20 minutes ago, BearSchlong said:

Also, there is a solution.

Send him to Beaumont, I have a bed for him at a 50 bed sober living house where I serve as treasurer. We just built a brand new 20 bedroom house.

It would be my privilege to introduce him to a loving, supportive environment where he gain a toehold in sobriety and meet dozens of guys who are transformed.

Headed to have lunch with my sponsor/lawyer at Luby’s right now.

Reason 3,458 that Surly is an awesome place

Maybe our criminal law dogs could weigh in, but it would seem that him having tried the sober living and succeeded while trying living on his own and failing, that another sober group home would be doable.   

But perhaps he needs to put in some jail time before they let him attempt that again.  Still, it is nice to know he has a place to go after the judge sentences him (if he is not inclined to give him a non-jail pass on this latest event).    He could argue that he was not driving when he drank the alcohol that showed up on his hearing test, but a judge should never trust the word of an alcoholic about where and when and how much he drank. 

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BTW, my ex brother-in-law is a guest of the state of Georgia, having received his latest DUI after several prior DUIs where his legitimate Iraq PTSD and military service cards were used to get them out of more serious penalties on his prior DUIs.

it certainly sucks, but my brother-in-law is only not in jail for vehicular homicide because he was lucky enough to drive drunk many many times without that horrific consequence.   Anyone who continues to drive while under the influence after being charged with DUI numerous previous times should be in jail.   For how long, and how to cure the addiction is a different societal matter.

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3 hours ago, Pokoloco said:

Thanks Thunder. It is the hardest thing to do, but I know I this is what have to do. He's not violent, highly intelligent, just an alcoholic. 

 


After having the last go around, and subsequent discussion, it seemed like that was what you needed to hear this time, backing up your thoughts from last time.

Been there and dealt with it myself, and it’s hard. But sometimes tough love is what it takes. Easy way didn’t work, so time to help in another way. Sometimes it’s the only way. 

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2 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

Reason 3,458 that Surly is an awesome place

Maybe our criminal law dogs could weigh in, but it would seem that him having tried the sober living and succeeded while trying living on his own and failing, that another sober group home would be doable.   

But perhaps he needs to put in some jail time before they let him attempt that again.  Still, it is nice to know he has a place to go after the judge sentences him (if he is not inclined to give him a non-jail pass on this latest event).    He could argue that he was not driving when he drank the alcohol that showed up on his hearing test, but a judge should never trust the word of an alcoholic about where and when and how much he drank. 

No idea what the law requires here in your jurisdiction, or what local practices are, but I suspect that he'll get a "shock" relatively short incarceration, followed by community supervision requiring a sober living for a more extended period.

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I can't speak to the lawyering, but learning how to “detach with love” is the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do as a parent.

I'm in lockstep with Reagan and Twice on this one.

I’m gonna butcher the fuck out of this, but when you and I spoke several years ago you said something incredibly profound that I’ve tried to keep in mind throughout several different situations where it was applicable.

“Allow them the dignity to fully experience the consequences of their actions. Until they hit rock bottom, there will be no change. And there is nothing you or anyone else can do about that. Everyone’s rock bottom is different.”
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3 hours ago, Herbie Hancock said:


I’m gonna butcher the fuck out of this, but when you and I spoke several years ago you said something incredibly profound that I’ve tried to keep in mind throughout several different situations where it was applicable.

“Allow them the dignity to fully experience the consequences of their actions. Until they hit rock bottom, there will be no change. And there is nothing you or anyone else can do about that. Everyone’s rock bottom is different.”

If one reads through the “I’m an alcoholic” thread, this absolutely profound and true statement is verified time after time - by person after person.   if you haven’t read through the thread lately Poco, I suggest that you do - if for no other reason than to help you with your very natural guilt at not helping your son…. which is, of course, in reality, you absolutely helping your son.

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There's a PD on this board, and I've got a feeling he works his ass off.

 

When my BIL was murdered, the scumbag that did it was represented by a PD, and he was a scrappy mofo, and did all he could for his scumbag client.  I had no ill-will against him then and I have none now.  In fact, during the trial I greeted him every day with a cheery "Good Morning Mr. Klein".  and I meant it. 

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On 1/23/2025 at 6:19 PM, thunderlounge said:

I’m sticking with my answer in post 2. 
 

He’s already about bankrupt y’all over this shit. Time to cut the cord man, and let him face the music.

You and the rest of your family deserve better.

If he gets a bad public defender, so be it. Those are consequences of his actions.

The more you pony up and bail him out every time, the less likely he is to stop fucking up. Why? Because why worry about consequences when daddy will fix it?

That’s kind of blunt, but I’m surprised that after the last time we discussed this (and your house, etc) you would even consider going through it all over again. 

This thread, and your post especially, remind me of Kevin Smith's story of having to let Jason Mewes hit rock bottom. Every time Mewes would fall off the wagon he'd go to Smith's house, who would let him in, clean him up, etc. But finally he learned he couldn't do that. He couldn't be Mewes' safety net. So Mewes came by, and Smith went out and... told him he couldn't come in, like he had all those times before. Hardest thing Smith ever did.

Mewes sobered up.

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