Euthanizing "Killer" Animals

[TwiceHorn 31514]

I guess by clicking on them, I now have a pretty steady stream of mountain lion encounter stories on my "google now" (or whatever it's called this week) feed.  The latest is about a Utah hunter that was scratched up by a big cat while hunting in the middle of BFE.  Recently, there were a couple of bikers in Washington, one killed by a mountain lion, 20 miles from the nearest paved road.

They always say "if the animal is caught, it will be euthanized."  This strikes me as kind of dumb, most especially when it is man that has gone to the cougar, rather than the other way around.

Through these stories, it has also come to my attention that cougars are protected in California, except in the case of livestock predation.  The livestock predation usually being killing of animals on a "hobby farm" that is, again, pretty much in the boonies, rather than an urban or suburban area.  Seems to me, if you have a hobby farm, it is incumbent upon you to prevent predation from cougars, wolves, coyotes, bobcats, foxes, badgers, weasels and wombats by enclosing your animals at night or other relevant times.  It isn't cutting into your profit margin, they're glorified pets.  Also, if you are in cougar (or other predator territory), killing one isn't going to make a difference, another will take its place and I become really uncomfortable with killing a whole string of critters being critters because you can't or won't protect your animals.

I don't think I have a problem with doing it in the case of an animal that comes into town (although relocation makes more sense to me), especially if they are starving or rabid or injured and thus looking for easy prey.

An actual sheep or cattle ranch is probably a different story.

I don't really buy this notion that there is such thing as a "maneater" or a "taste for human flesh."  I can't find anything scientific that supports the concept other than anecdotes about tigers and lions eating a bunch of ignorant fucking pygmies (no racist).

Also, recently in New Orleans, I believe, a jaguar escaped its enclosure and went on a spree killing nearly a dozen other zoo animals.  The zoo said no way euthanasia was on the table, jaguar gonna jaguar.

I'm anything but a tree-hugger.  Still, I very much support conservation of the environment and extinction and endangerment of species strikes me as one of the more grotesquely selfish and negligent of mankind's follies.  Maybe that makes me a tree-hugger.  I don't eat granola (too much fat and carbs).

 

I dunno, Discuss.

Edited August 20, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[drt 640]

Pretty sure they practice this with bears in Yellowstone, but I’d think grizzlies are different in hunting habits than cougars. Also a shitload more people in close proximity on a regular basis.  

[TwiceHorn 31514]

20 minutes ago, drt said:

Pretty sure they practice this with bears in Yellowstone, but I’d think grizzlies are different in hunting habits than cougars. Also a shitload more people in close proximity on a regular basis.  

Yeah that's another example that troubles me a bit.  We're bringing the humans to the bears.  I dunno.

[bernorange 8362]

Saving the environment and the remaining species diversity of the planet is now your mindset. Nothing is more important than saving them. The Lions, Tigers, Giraffes, Elephants, Froggies, Turtles, Apes, Raccoons, Beetles, Ants, Sharks, Bears, and, of course, the Squirrels.

[TwiceHorn 31514]

22 minutes ago, bernorange said:

Saving the environment and the remaining species diversity of the planet is now your mindset. Nothing is more important than saving them. The Lions, Tigers, Giraffes, Elephants, Froggies, Turtles, Apes, Raccoons, Beetles, Ants, Sharks, Bears, and, of course, the Squirrels.

[bernorange 8362]

15 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

You talking to me? ...

lulz.  No.  It was a joke response to the OP.  Previous post was a quote from the manifesto of the Discovery Channel shooter back in 2010.

[TwiceHorn 31514]

23 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

You talking to me? Not sure, but I'll respond. While I am for protection of species particularly endangered ones there is a cross over point where those species become invasive or to a lesser degree dangerous to existing human structure. I recognize the need to protect civilization in that instance when they are entering human habitat and can't be encouraged to leave.

However, if humans are being stupid, voyaging in natural settings, or throwing critters outside because "hippy/survival" then I am pro-animal. I do however recognize the individual right to say, hmm no bear, I don't want to die today.

Now what I think is kick fucking ass is when wild animals adapt to living in civilization/cities outside natural instict and don't cause any harm. See coyotes in Chicago, a lot of them.

Yeah, another fascinating thing I have come across is that there has been a small population of cougars in Griffith Park in LA for decades.  Biologists are learning a ton by observing them in this constrained area.  And almost no human attacks, despite their proximity to dumbass angelenos.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

33 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

The level of stupid I saw, and is clearly evident on videos around the webtubeface, last time I was in Yellow Stone gives me pause too.

People feeding fucking bears. (Did not witness it but many videos) People getting within a few yards for selfies of male buffalo that appeared to be prepping for rut. (First hand exp) Shit like that is way too prevalent.

Seems like the bears would care more about boning each other than eating in that scenario.

[RDCanecutter 26458]

I member the morning I walked out front and a Big Damn Coyote came padding down the street, walked past me about 15 feet away. We mind-melded through eye contact.

Me: You're a coyote.

He: That is a brilliant observation [/Christopher Walken Coyote Mind-Voice]

Just kept on going down the street toward the park with the creek. Human population around here probably like Rhode Island.

Also, there's a big-ass hawk camped out somewhere in the trees out back. How much can those things lift? 11-pound pup (never out alone, we got coyotes) wants to know.

[David Dennison 18940]

Part of the reason they put the animal down is to protect other animals from vengeful humans.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/07/an_alligator_ate_my_arm_should_we_kill_it_.html

 

[bernorange 8362]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

... I very much support conservation of the environment and extinction and endangerment of species strikes me as one of the more grotesquely selfish and negligent of mankind's follies.  ...

Vegetarians get a lot of shit for very valid reasons, but man's desire for red meat has led to wholesale destruction of rain forests to provide pasture land for cattle raising all over the world from Latin America to Hawaii.  It's several orders of magnitude more destructive to the environment and species extinction (especially in places like Costa Rica) than killing the odd cat in the American boonies.

Edited August 20, 2018 by bernorange

[Guest]

Does castle doctrine extend to my moat?

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

I think we should catch them, mount cameras on them and have a live TV channel that covers it. Ratings would boom when they attack the odd hiker who wanders off the trail.

Use the revenue to support reforestation of the rain forests.

[MissingInAction 25134]

It makes me happy to hear of some dipshit getting mauled while fucking around with a wild animal. 

[bernorange 8362]

18 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

I agree, but there is very little that can be done to curb the meat demand globally. ...

Education.  Cattle ranching is a very resource inefficient system for providing dietary protein.  Most people don't think too hard about the choices they make with respect to their diet.  I've lived through decades of being the vegetarian at the table that everyone else is badgering with questions. It's not hyperbole to say that roughly 95% of the population is irrational with respect to their diet.  The issue is too entwined with social and cultural ties.  Powerful forces.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

It makes me happy to hear of some dipshit getting mauled while fucking around with a wild animal. 

This.

 

Darwin is slacking with those fuckers walking out to the buffaloes.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, bernorange said:

Education.  Cattle ranching is a very resource inefficient system for providing dietary protein.  Most people don't think too hard about the choices they make with respect to their diet.  I've lived through decades of being the vegetarian at the table that everyone else is badgering with questions. It's not hyperbole to say that roughly 95% of the population is irrational with respect to their diet.  The issue is too entwined with social and cultural ties.  Powerful forces.

Mushroom fajitas...

now that’s irrational.

but if that’s your thing, carry the fuck on.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

35 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

I agree, but there is very little that can be done to curb the meat demand globally

More heart attacks?

[RDCanecutter 26458]

Buddy of mine was on the Paleo diet, I asked him why he didn't eat bugs.

You can't tell me caveman didn't eat bugs.

[Texas_Rocks 346]

While fucking it all up, we humans have at the same time severely overestimated our importance to this planet.

[Smax 3800]

56 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

I agree, but there is very little that can be done to curb the meat demand globally. I'm open to ideas and would love a workable solution. However, the OPs point is at least something we might possibly be able to change. Then again, you "Can't fix stupid" -Ron white, and that is the biggest issue related to OPs point.

 

The demand for meat doesn't need to be curbed, population does

To the op, I agree its wrong

[bernorange 8362]

16 minutes ago, Texas_Rocks said:

While fucking it all up, we humans have at the same time severely overestimated our importance to this planet.

Importance to <> impact upon

[You don't know me 1161]

Killing animals for doing animal things generally seems kind of stupid to me.  In particular, killing a mountain lion for killing someone that wanders into BFE.  For the animals that wander into populated areas and subsequently maul someone, then relocation seems like the preferred option.  All that being said, there are times when I'm okay with an animal just being put down because it becomes a nuisance.  I guess I'm all over the map on this.

[Gene Parmesan 4008]

I don't like it either, but agree it's just drops in the lake to other atrocities that are going on.  Assuming endangered species aren't in play, does it make me a hypocrite to care more about a cougar being killed by some wildlife agency than however many animals indirectly by me through my own meat consumption?  I mean to the OP "hobby farms" aren't to be treated as a normal farming operation because they aren't necessities and are more or less just someone having pets.  Wouldn't an American's meat consumption be on the same level? 

[RDCanecutter 26458]

29 minutes ago, Smax said:

The demand for meat doesn't need to be curbed, population does

Everybody could still eat meat while making sure there are fewer people.

[Bateshorn 9928]

I thought sometimes it has to do with the actually attack, like if there is feeding behavior.  If it's a mauling associated with maternal instincts, they let it go, if it's something that just realized we are slow, weak, hairless sacks of meat, then you need to identify/eliminate the predator before it decides to go full stoner at the taco bar.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Bateshorn

[clapclapclap 9000]

88-year-old man arrested, accused of burning raccoon alive for eating his mangoes

PALM BAY, FL (WKMG/CNN) -  An 88-year-old man was arrested after police said he burned a raccoon alive.

"88-years-old, first time I ever have to go to jail. I never thought about killing nobody in my lifetime. No man, no woman, no kid," said Ezra James.

James posted a $2,000 bond and described planning to kill the animal for eating his mangoes.

James also said he wanted to prevent the raccoon from biting him and giving him rabies.

"I throw some gasoline on him and light a match," James said.

Moments later, as the raccoon burned alive in a metal trap, a neighbor called 911, James said.

James is still mad at the neighbor’s actions.

"She's a wicked woman," James said.

James is originally from Jamaica and says he did not know authorities would have humanely euthanized the raccoon.

When police got there Friday morning, James watched an officer shoot the raccoon to put it out of its misery.

"Two (police) shot and kill the raccoon," he said.

He may now have to explain his actions to some disturbed neighbors.

"I never would have believed he would have done that," said Nancy Gill, a neighbor.

James and Gill have been neighbors for 20 years.

"I sure hope he thinks about it because God don't want us to do stuff like this," she said.

"I'm not going to catch no more because I learned my lesson," James said. "No, I'm done with that."

[bernorange 8362]

19 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

...

While I get your point, and it matters, I'm not convinced it is relevant to this thread. ...

Please reread post #15 and specifically the statement I quoted and was responding to.  If you still don't grok it, spend a few minutes reading around the internets about rain forest destruction and the impact of that upon " the environment and extinction and endangerment of species".

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

23 minutes ago, bernorange said:

Please reread post #15 and specifically the statement I quoted and was responding to.  If you still don't grok it, spend a few minutes reading around the internets about rain forest destruction and the impact of that upon " the environment and extinction and endangerment of species".

The cattle business not a very eco friendly business.  

[bernorange 8362]

19 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

... So essentially, you intend who gives a shit about those mountain lions, ...

I never proclaimed any such value judgement on mountain lions.  I merely raised a point about related issue with respect to the statement I quoted.

[Guest]

I got a fuck lion. 

[Helobious 9464]

I like how vegetarians/vegans think no animals suffer to get them their food. Yes, those croplands were always there & no animals lost their lives or habitat for it to be there. No animals get harmed in the process of harvesting either.

[atomheartbevo 89762]

5 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah that's another example that troubles me a bit.  We're bringing the humans to the bears.  I dunno.

Check out this PBS show: Glacier Park's Night of the Grizzles.  Gets into humans encroaching onto their territory, and how we can minimize the risks, etc.

http://www.montanapbs.org/programs/glacierparksnightofthegrizzlies/

 

[Judge Roybeanbag 11819]

Quote

PALM BAY, FL (WKMG/CNN) -  An 88-year-old man was arrested after police said he burned a raccoon alive.

"88-years-old, first time I ever have to go to jail. I never thought about killing nobody in my lifetime. No man, no woman, no kid," said Ezra James.

James is originally from Jamaica and says he did not know authorities would have humanely euthanized the raccoon.

Is it bad that I read "no woman, no kid" in a Bob Marley singing voice?

[Smax 3800]

good timing for this thread ..

 

https://www.islandpacket.com/news/local/crime/article217007570.html

 

Quote

HILTON HEAD ISLAND, SC 

A 45-year-old woman who was killed by an alligator while walking her dog in Sea Pines on Hilton Head Island Monday morning has been identified, according to a Beaufort County Sheriff’s Office news release.

Cassandra Cline, a Sea Pines resident, was killed in the attack while trying to save her dog, state officials said. Cline was identified by Beaufort County coroner Ed Allen.

“It appears the alligator went after her dog and she tried to protect it,” said Sam Chappalear of South Carolina Department of Natural Resources.

Chappalear said the 8-foot alligator believed to be responsible for the attack was caught and euthanized.

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

I'd say pussy was definitely defeated here ^^^

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

21 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'd say pussy was definitely defeated here ^^^

Unless it was a female gator.

[GringoSalado 1651]

9 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I guess by clicking on them, I now have a pretty steady stream of mountain lion encounter stories on my "google now" (or whatever it's called this week) feed.  The latest is about a Utah hunter that was scratched up by a big cat while hunting in the middle of BFE.  Recently, there were a couple of bikers in Washington, one killed by a mountain lion, 20 miles from the nearest paved road.

They always say "if the animal is caught, it will be euthanized."  This strikes me as kind of dumb, most especially when it is man that has gone to the cougar, rather than the other way around.

Through these stories, it has also come to my attention that cougars are protected in California, except in the case of livestock predation.  The livestock predation usually being killing of animals on a "hobby farm" that is, again, pretty much in the boonies, rather than an urban or suburban area.  Seems to me, if you have a hobby farm, it is incumbent upon you to prevent predation from cougars, wolves, coyotes, bobcats, foxes, badgers, weasels and wombats by enclosing your animals at night or other relevant times.  It isn't cutting into your profit margin, they're glorified pets.  Also, if you are in cougar (or other predator territory), killing one isn't going to make a difference, another will take its place and I become really uncomfortable with killing a whole string of critters being critters because you can't or won't protect your animals.

I don't think I have a problem with doing it in the case of an animal that comes into town (although relocation makes more sense to me), especially if they are starving or rabid or injured and thus looking for easy prey.

An actual sheep or cattle ranch is probably a different story.

I don't really buy this notion that there is such thing as a "maneater" or a "taste for human flesh."  I can't find anything scientific that supports the concept other than anecdotes about tigers and lions eating a bunch of ignorant fucking pygmies (no racist).

Also, recently in New Orleans, I believe, a jaguar escaped its enclosure and went on a spree killing nearly a dozen other zoo animals.  The zoo said no way euthanasia was on the table, jaguar gonna jaguar.

I'm anything but a tree-hugger.  Still, I very much support conservation of the environment and extinction and endangerment of species strikes me as one of the more grotesquely selfish and negligent of mankind's follies.  Maybe that makes me a tree-hugger.  I don't eat granola (too much fat and carbs).

 

I dunno, Discuss.

Not scientific, only anecdotal, but in my experience once a cougar starts eating livestock they don't stop. Weirdly, for the most part they do not (guided hunters almost never failed to find a lion on our ranch, but we never had a confirmed loss from that in 20 years on that place).

Had a neighbor that was lost a few full sized heifers and they killed a (very, very large) mature mountain lion responsible. Game & Fish guy (alleged wildlife biologist) said that she probably got too old to catch antelope and finally realized fat heifers are an easy kill, and then wouldn't unlearn that lesson.

 

But I suppose I could be convinced otherwise.

 

And I'm sure various douchebags are itching to depredate various critters for dubious reasons (I went on a few lion hunts with the local guides so I feel like I know the type).

[TwiceHorn 31514]

7 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

I thought sometimes it has to do with the actually attack, like if there is feeding behavior.  If it's a mauling associated with maternal instincts, they let it go, if it's something that just realized we are slow, weak, hairless sacks of meat, then you need to identify/eliminate the predator before it decides to go full stoner at the taco bar.

I have seen about zero evidence of this.  But it sounds like a more rational approach. In the UT story, the hunter was merely scratched, not mauled or bitten, even after shooting an arrow at it.  It was BFE and the behavior described sounded maternal.   Still, they said it would be euthanized if caught.

https://www.inquisitr.com/5034785/utah-hunter-injured-after-being-attacked-by-mountain-lion/

Not the detailed story I saw.

 

[GringoSalado 1651]

8 hours ago, bernorange said:

Education.  Cattle ranching is a very resource inefficient system for providing dietary protein. 

Compared to what?

In my experience most (if not all) grazing land is a resource not suited to farming, or somebody would be farming it.

[Schulz2.0 28995]

9 hours ago, bernorange said:

Education.  Cattle ranching is a very resource inefficient system for providing dietary protein.  Most people don't think too hard about the choices they make with respect to their diet.  I've lived through decades of being the vegetarian at the table that everyone else is badgering with questions. It's not hyperbole to say that roughly 95% of the population is irrational with respect to their diet.  The issue is too entwined with social and cultural ties.  Powerful forces.

The way to fix things is to have about 6 billion less people.

[bernorange 8362]

32 minutes ago, GringoSalado said:

Compared to what?

In my experience most (if not all) grazing land is a resource not suited to farming, or somebody would be farming it.

I don't want to derail the thread further.  Start a new thread if you want to pursue a discussion, but the issue raised was rainforest deforestation, not "grazing land".

[GringoSalado 1651]

7 minutes ago, bernorange said:

I don't want to derail the thread further.  Start a new thread if you want to pursue a discussion, but the issue raised was rainforest deforestation, not "grazing land".

Understood, and my comment doesn't address that (deforestation).

/threadjack.

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

There was a mountain lion that showed up in my hood a few years ago. People freaked the fuck out. My attitude was, if you are that scared, move back to town. I was hoping the lion would eat some of the fucking yappy neighbor dogs. 

[TwiceHorn 31514]

4 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

There was a mountain lion that showed up in my hood a few years ago. People freaked the fuck out. My attitude was, if you are that scared, move back to town. I was hoping the lion would eat some of the fucking yappy neighbor dogs. 

Did it stick around and do some dirt or just disappear?

[TwiceHorn 31514]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Did it stick around and do some dirt or just disappear?

Addemdum, we obviously have no cougars (of the feline variety) in DFW.  However, coyotes are seemingly everywhere and bobcats kind of, at least by sighting (I think the bobcats hide better, which also entails retreating to the woods).  It seems that the coyotes continue to prey in urban/suburban territories pretty continuously after being sighted, while the bobcats will retreat to whatever woodsy territory they came from.  That is, the cats kind of disappear.

Edited August 21, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Did it stick around and do some dirt or just disappear?

Took one deer (that we know of), but no dogs. I thought about putting a goat or something on a lead in the drive way and setting up a game cam, but the wife nixed that idea.

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Addemdum, we obviously have no cougars (of the feline variety) in DFW.  However, coyotes are seemingly everywhere and bobcats kind of, at least by sighting (I think the bobcats hide better, which also entails retreating to the woods).  It seems that the coyotes continue to prey in urban/suburban territories pretty continuously after being sighted, while the bobcats will retreat to whatever woodsy territory they came from.  That is, the cats kind of disappear.

 

Coyotes are very adaptable, bobcats and mountain lions not so much. 

[Newdoc 3448]

13 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

And almost no human attacks, despite their proximity to dumbass angelenos.

Cougars don’t like the taste of silicone and plastic.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

11 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Addemdum, we obviously have no cougars (of the feline variety) in DFW.  However, coyotes are seemingly everywhere and bobcats kind of, at least by sighting (I think the bobcats hide better, which also entails retreating to the woods).  It seems that the coyotes continue to prey in urban/suburban territories pretty continuously after being sighted, while the bobcats will retreat to whatever woodsy territory they came from.  That is, the cats kind of disappear.

I bet there are a handful outside the city or maybe even the outskirts. I saw one in East Texas several years back stalking a doe.