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Posted

We could also, you know, raise government revenue as well. Typically successful austerity measures involve both spending cuts and tax increases.

That is how we were able to achieve what we did in the 1990s for example.

Posted

On the RTO issue.  The Patent and Trademark Office has used remote work for patent examiners, in particular, for decades, long before Covid.

It was necessary to attract technical talent to the examining corps, when living in the greater DC area held no appeal, much less on a gubmint salary.

It worked quite well as I don't think anyone on the non-office side could tell whether an examiner was teleworking or in-office.

I suspect that there are more than a few federal workers like this.

Also, curiously, the PTO has opened regional patent offices in Detroit, Dallas, San Jose, Denver and maybe a couple of other places.  It hasn't seemed to change much in terms of operation or really location of employees, but I think they do present "telework" hubs reducing remote workers' travel to Alexandria.

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Posted (edited)

The point being, as I think we all know, that remote work can be a very good thing that makes a lot of sense, especially for government.

It's not all "bad Covid policy" or some type of worker laziness.

Not directly relevant to the RTO thing, but I am not opposed perhaps to moving more government function out of DC.  That makes a certain amount of sense if done in measured fashion.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Posted
17 minutes ago, Nuge said:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/education-department-staff-warned-trump-032124645.html

What kind of bullshit is this?  Even if you take the buyout it could be cancelled at any time and you have no recourse.

All you wanted to know about that.  https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/will-employees-who-resign-have-a-remedy

Receiving severance past the March 14 budget authorization is a very dicey proposition, as is entering a contract with the government for severance pay, period.  The documents also have releases purporting to prevent suits against the government.

Posted

Question for you law folks--what prevents Musk and Trump from cutting funding to the courts, court staff and congressional staff or along party lines?  Seems like they'd be kneecapping the judicial system as well but who cares about the rule of law when you have blanket immunity? 

Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Mdhorn said:

Question for you law folks--what prevents Musk and Trump from cutting funding to the courts, court staff and congressional staff or along party lines?  Seems like they'd be kneecapping the judicial system as well but who cares about the rule of law when you have blanket immunity? 

Well, nothing really.  But, the federal judiciary is divvied up among districts.  And districts have Trumpy judges and non-Trumpy judges, and it would be difficult to strangle the non-Trumpy judges without also strangling the Trumpy judges.

Also, one thing the plutocrats don't acknowledge but may know to a greater or lesser extent:  they are heavily dependent on a status-quo, rule-based judiciary in their business and personal lives and they fuck with that at their peril.  And, they are also politically heavily reliant on a friendly judiciary at this point.  Also perilous for them.

Finally, I think when push comes to shove, the judiciary is going to do a better job of protecting its power than the legislative branch has done.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Posted

I know about 15 individuals in my organization that are trying to take the fork in the road.  All of them are within a year of retirement.  Good chance that many of them will be deemed exempt from taking it either by our organization or our higher HQ, because if they are able to take it we lose that billet.  Not sure how that will affect their morale if they are told no, but can't think it will be good.

Posted

Turns out, any reply to the emails being sent out is being considered as an affirmation that a person wishes to resign.

Even some workers who were on vacation and had an auto-reply enabled for their email....yep, you guessed it.  That's being used as a resignation.

Like everything else since noon January 20, this is no longer a serious nation.  

 

 

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Posted
9 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Turns out, any reply to the emails being sent out is being considered as an affirmation that a person wishes to resign.

Even some workers who were on vacation and had an auto-reply enabled for their email....yep, you guessed it.  That's being used as a resignation.

Like everything else since noon January 20, this is no longer a serious nation.  

 

 

giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952ll32kdpld03zotbl0r

 

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Posted
11 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Turns out, any reply to the emails being sent out is being considered as an affirmation that a person wishes to resign.

Even some workers who were on vacation and had an auto-reply enabled for their email....yep, you guessed it.  That's being used as a resignation.

Like everything else since noon January 20, this is no longer a serious nation.  

 

 

They sent this out on a big blast and so it also went to plenty of non employees who had .gov email addresses.  Contractors, uniformed service on detail, others.  It’s all so dumb. 

Posted

I'm still trying to figure out why this is garnering so much outrage, especially relative to the other stuff going on.  Although maybe it's just par for the course and the overall weight of everythiiing.

However, the employees are going to be able to rely on representations, etc. that were made by their managers on these matters. The idea that they would have no recourse flies in the face of employment law in general, let alone federal employment tribunals.

Posted
1 minute ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

I'm still trying to figure out why this is garnering so much outrage, especially relative to the other stuff going on.  Although maybe it's just par for the course and the overall weight of everythiiing.

However, the employees are going to be able to rely on representations, etc. that were made by their managers on these matters. The idea that they would have no recourse flies in the face of employment law in general, let alone federal employment tribunals.

Lmfao

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Posted
19 minutes ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

I'm still trying to figure out why this is garnering so much outrage, especially relative to the other stuff going on.  Although maybe it's just par for the course and the overall weight of everythiiing.

However, the employees are going to be able to rely on representations, etc. that were made by their managers on these matters. The idea that they would have no recourse flies in the face of employment law in general, let alone federal employment tribunals.

Elon pulled the same stunt at his other companies. Those people got fucked and had to sue. They are still fighting for their money. I will guarantee you the same thing happens here. And I will guarantee you there will be several legal justifications given why the federal government is either immune from suit or not liable. And I guarantee you at least one judge will accept them. 

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Posted
13 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Elon pulled the same stunt at his other companies. Those people got fucked and had to sue. They are still fighting for their money. I will guarantee you the same thing happens here. And I will guarantee you there will be several legal justifications given why the federal government is either immune from suit or not liable. And I guarantee you at least one judge will accept them. 

In order for them to get paid:  they will have to sue, there will have to be another presidential election, that election will have to come out in favor of a Dem, that Dem will either (a) get Congress to sign off on the money; or (b) sign some EO finding money from somewhere else.

That's a lot of holes that will have to line up in the Swiss cheese for these folks to get paid.

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Posted
17 hours ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Turns out, any reply to the emails being sent out is being considered as an affirmation that a person wishes to resign.

Even some workers who were on vacation and had an auto-reply enabled for their email....yep, you guessed it.  That's being used as a resignation.

Like everything else since noon January 20, this is no longer a serious nation.  

 

 

Holy shit. Fucking clown show. Theater of the absurd.

Posted
1 hour ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

I'm still trying to figure out why this is garnering so much outrage, especially relative to the other stuff going on.  Although maybe it's just par for the course and the overall weight of everythiiing.

However, the employees are going to be able to rely on representations, etc. that were made by their managers on these matters. The idea that they would have no recourse flies in the face of employment law in general, let alone federal employment tribunals.

You mean that you think they'll get paid via appropriated money, managed by the same folks that just unilaterally stopped all outgoing money from all departments by usurping the Treasury? They're literally actively not paying people RIGHT NOW, previous commitments be damned. Right in front of our faces, without process of any kind, really. You think THOSE people will somehow honor a commitment drawn from thin air, not even passed by Congress, eight fucking months from now?

You are not serious people. There's no debate to be had here about the 'merits' of anything because nothing is being done on merit. It's being done out of spite, or ignorance. Likely both, with a healthy dose of narcissism and outright malice.

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Posted
1 hour ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

I'm still trying to figure out why this is garnering so much outrage, especially relative to the other stuff going on.  Although maybe it's just par for the course and the overall weight of everythiiing.

However, the employees are going to be able to rely on representations, etc. that were made by their managers on these matters. The idea that they would have no recourse flies in the face of employment law in general, let alone federal employment tribunals.

Clown Applying Makeup Meme Generator - Imgflip

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Posted
45 minutes ago, capnamerca said:

You think THOSE people will somehow honor a commitment drawn from thin air, not even passed by Congress, eight fucking months from now?

I think they at worse, will stumble through paying these folks for the next eight months. 

These folks aren't going to accept that "the checks in the mail" for eight months, and the congress will bail the administration out of any problems caused by this.

This is essentially eight months of garden leave.  These folks aren't just going to sit around for eight months and then ask - oh, about my 16 delinquent pay checks.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

I think they at worse, will stumble through paying these folks for the next eight months. 

These folks aren't going to accept that "the checks in the mail" for eight months, and the congress will bail the administration out of any problems caused by this.

This is essentially eight months of garden leave.  These folks aren't just going to sit around for eight months and then ask - oh, about my 16 delinquent pay checks.

 

 

You're wrong. They're going to have to sue. And you're a fucking fool for thinking otherwise. 

Edited by Dahobbs
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Posted

Well, we'll see.  They've essentially given their 8-month notice of resignation.  

They should be suing in a couple of weeks now.  

CFPB employees about to really be screwed.  

 

Let me ask this question.  You're company tells you on January 12, 2025 that you can resign effective September 1, 2025 and you don't have to report in.   You don't do any work for three months, and get paid not doing it, and on April 12, 2025, you're company does a huge RIF (lack of funding) where everyone in your department is fired, including you.  Instead of resigning effective January 12, 2025, you are separated on April 12, 2025.

What are your damages?  Under what theory?   

What are the damages of the folks who didn't take the deal and worked January 12, 2025 - April 12, 2025?  What theory.

 

 

 

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Posted
5 minutes ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

Well, we'll see.  They've essentially given their 8-month notice of resignation.  

They should be suing in a couple of weeks now.  

CFPB employees about to really be screwed.  

 

Let me ask this question.  You're company tells you on January 12, 2025 that you can resign effective September 1, 2025 and you don't have to report in.   You don't do any work for three months, and get paid not doing it, and on April 12, 2025, you're company does a huge RIF (lack of funding) where everyone in your department is fired, including you.  Instead of resigning effective January 12, 2025, you are separated on April 12, 2025.

What are your damages?  Under what theory?   

What are the damages of the folks who didn't take the deal and worked January 12, 2025 - April 12, 2025?  What theory.

I mean, they MIGHT actually be civil servants and give a shit about their mission, not just getting paid. Because in some cases it DOES  fucking matter, ya know?

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Posted
7 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I mean, they MIGHT actually be civil servants and give a shit about their mission, not just getting paid. Because in some cases it DOES  fucking matter, ya know?

This president ran on a platform that wanted to destroy the government.  The fact that 1/4 of the federal civil servants haven't been fired to date in some completely arbitrary way frankly amazes me.  

These guys voluntarily resigned.  Not for a severance to be paid in a lump sum at some later date, but on the condition of garden leave.  When they get fucked, they'll get fucked.  We will soon know.  I'll save my hysteria for now on the folks that are actually gettng fired. 

And I worked for 8 years in the federal government so quit being pissy.  Whether you or I care about civil service doesn't matter.  What matters as that the GOP doesn't care about civil service.

 

 

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Posted
3 hours ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

I think they at worse, will stumble through paying these folks for the next eight months. 

These folks aren't going to accept that "the checks in the mail" for eight months, and the congress will bail the administration out of any problems caused by this.

This is essentially eight months of garden leave.  These folks aren't just going to sit around for eight months and then ask - oh, about my 16 delinquent pay checks.

 

And then there's the whole CR that expires on March 14.   This fucking letter promises funding that does not exist as of today, February 13th.

In other words, these promises were illegal.  And there are no guarantees that after the smoke clears on whatever CR is passed in a month (which, we all know....isn't a sure thing these days) there will be funding for people that resigned a month ago.  Other than an email "promise" typed up by someone probably not old enough to purchase beer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted
1 minute ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

In other words, these promises were illegal.  And there are no guarantees that after the smoke clears on whatever CR is passed in a month (which, we all know....isn't a sure thing these days) there will be funding for people that resigned a month ago.  Other than an email "promise" typed up by someone probably not old enough to purchase beer.

There isn't going to be funding for anyone. Including the people who worked up until government shutdown.

I have no beef with any argument that such a move was illegal. I'm just questioning the idea that the folks who accepted this illegal offer are inevitably going to be screwed. Especially in relation to other people who just get RIFed/permanently furloughed.

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Posted
1 minute ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

There isn't going to be funding for anyone. Including the people who worked up until government shutdown.

I have no beef with any argument that such a move was illegal. I'm just questioning the idea that the folks who accepted this illegal offer are inevitably going to be screwed. Especially in relation to other people who just get RIFed/permanently furloughed.

 

Let's turn this around.   What makes you so confident throughout this process that the people who took this offer are going to be made whole?

People who are questioning it have seen what Musk and Trump have done throughout their careers.  Musk has his fingerprints all over Treasury at present time, and they are currently, in spite of court orders, withholding congressionally mandated funding to cities, states and other organizations.  You think some poor son of a bitch in Midland who took this offer is going to matter to these folks?  And remember, anyone who took the offer waived the ability to sue afterward, so good luck with that.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted
57 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Let's turn this around.   What makes you so confident throughout this process that the people who took this offer are going to be made whole?

Made whole.  By that I assume you mean paid out for 8 months while not working?

My argument is that these guys are in no different a position than those who remain working and don't retire.  Those who keep working are hired under whatever contractual agreement they have - presumably they can only be termed for cause.  And a reduction in force for lack of funding or other budget priorities is likely good cause. 

So made whole under these circumstances means being able to get paid while not working for however long the job exists.  The only way I could see these guys arguing that they are owed the full eight months is for their agency to only fire people who resigned.  If they terminate people by position or group, including those who didn't resign, I'm not sure what their cause of action would be. 

I'm not certain that these people will be "made whole" in your terminology, but I don't think it would take much effort for DOGE to finesse this without screwing them.

They aren't trading their retirement for a Tesla Annuity.  They aren't trading their Thrift Saving Plan for Trump stock.  Their resigning with a promise that they will get garden leave for 8 months.  In the realm of Trump screw jobs, I just don't see this as super high on the list. Imagine if the worst that was being done to the federal workforce was the offer of slimy exit incentive agreements?

And any release language could arguably cut both ways in that it could make the garden leave and related provision much more enforceable but matters outside the agreement waived.  

Posted
1 hour ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

Their resigning with a promise that they will get garden leave for 8 months.

*They're

And holy shit you're one dense mother fucker

Posted (edited)

Great (and I’m betting sad) thing is we’ll know the answer to this very soon. I think you’re a fuckin idiot to assume anything above board will occur with Trump and Elon at the helm backed by a nutless congress operating under threat from Elon. 

Edited by bluto
Posted

I took the offer so I'll update as far as getting paid.  Got a contract to sign today.  Last day of work is Feb 28th - turn in all of my equipment at that time.  I would have gladly continued working up until the Sept 30th resignation date but that wasn't presented as an option.  Was given instructions that after Feb 28th, my timekeeper and/or boss would enter all hours into my time sheet as Administrative Leave.  I'm only a couple of years from retirement eligibility anyways, so I plan on taking early retirement in September with minimal hit to my benefits.

 

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Posted
1 hour ago, Bevo in VA said:

I took the offer so I'll update as far as getting paid.  Got a contract to sign today.  Last day of work is Feb 28th - turn in all of my equipment at that time.  I would have gladly continued working up until the Sept 30th resignation date but that wasn't presented as an option.  Was given instructions that after Feb 28th, my timekeeper and/or boss would enter all hours into my time sheet as Administrative Leave.  I'm only a couple of years from retirement eligibility anyways, so I plan on taking early retirement in September with minimal hit to my benefits.

 

tip #1, Trump lies.
tip #2, Musk lies even more
tip #3, watch your cornhole...

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Posted
6 hours ago, Bevo in VA said:

I took the offer so I'll update as far as getting paid.  Got a contract to sign today.  Last day of work is Feb 28th - turn in all of my equipment at that time.  I would have gladly continued working up until the Sept 30th resignation date but that wasn't presented as an option.  Was given instructions that after Feb 28th, my timekeeper and/or boss would enter all hours into my time sheet as Administrative Leave.  I'm only a couple of years from retirement eligibility anyways, so I plan on taking early retirement in September with minimal hit to my benefits.

 

How does resigning now vs September affect early retirement? 

Posted
4 minutes ago, immamac said:

How does resigning now vs September affect early retirement? 

Not a huge impact.  My agency and position (as have most other government agencies) have been deemed eligible for Voluntary Early Retirement Authority (VERA) BUT only if you take Elon's  Fork in the Road offer.  For my wife (same job I have) and I, the VERA is the most important aspect of the whole deal.  Under that, you can retire with full benefits immediately (i.e. start receiving a pension, keep your health insurance).  So for our agency, the VERA is authorized until the end of September so by sticking around until then, we'll get that time credited to service length and still accumulate leave while (in theory) still get paid.  We would have gladly stayed on working until September but that option wasn't given.  Return to Office wasn't an issue for us - we work full time from home and there wasn't much chance of us getting called back into the office due to space constraints (Agency employs 14000 people and we have room for 1300).

 

I'm hearing rumors at work that my position is going to be eliminated and I would have been demoted if I had chosen to stuck around, so I thought it was worth the risk taking the offer.  Never expected my career to end this way but we'll be ok either way.  I look at others going through the same thing and feel terrible about what he's doing to the Federal workforce.  If we were 20 years out rom retirement, we'd pretty much be screwed.

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