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Posted

I don't disagree with anything you say troph.  I'm just saying that this particular deal was a voluntary deal.  Surge it's part of the plan, but swaths of folks are getting RIFed as part of the overall plan. 

I agree.  Let's base opposition on what they do.  Enough to be outraged about what they do when they do it.   

I'm repeating myself.  I'll just wait and eat crow at some point within the next year. 

And me eating crow has nothing to do with the pain administering that this administration revels in.  

Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

I don't disagree with anything you say troph.  I'm just saying that this particular deal was a voluntary deal.  Surge it's part of the plan, but swaths of folks are getting RIFed as part of the overall plan. 

I agree.  Let's base opposition on what they do.  Enough to be outraged about what they do when they do it.   

I'm repeating myself.  I'll just wait and eat crow at some point within the next year. 

And me eating crow has nothing to do with the pain administering that this administration revels in.  

It’s not really voluntary. If you are considering being the inside opposition, this is a signal that you best leave now, otherwise your agency or your job may just be eliminated, legalities be damned. Again what they do (violate the law with impunity), not what they say. 

Edited by troph
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Posted
13 minutes ago, Bevo in VA said:

Not a huge impact.  My agency and position (as have most other government agencies) have been deemed eligible for Voluntary Early Retirement Authority (VERA) BUT only if you take Elon's  Fork in the Road offer.  For my wife (same job I have) and I, the VERA is the most important aspect of the whole deal.  Under that, you can retire with full benefits immediately (i.e. start receiving a pension, keep your health insurance).  So for our agency, the VERA is authorized until the end of September so by sticking around until then, we'll get that time credited to service length and still accumulate leave while (in theory) still get paid.  We would have gladly stayed on working until September but that option wasn't given.  Return to Office wasn't an issue for us - we work full time from home and there wasn't much chance of us getting called back into the office due to space constraints (Agency employs 14000 people and we have room for 1300).

 

I'm hearing rumors at work that my position is going to be eliminated and I would have been demoted if I had chosen to stuck around, so I thought it was worth the risk taking the offer.  Never expected my career to end this way but we'll be ok either way.  I look at others going through the same thing and feel terrible about what he's doing to the Federal workforce.  If we were 20 years out rom retirement, we'd pretty much be screwed.

Thanks for the complete response. I wish you luck and hope you find retirement a great opportunity to pursue something you love doing and maybe turn it into another source of income! 

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Posted
13 hours ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

Well, we'll see.  They've essentially given their 8-month notice of resignation.  

They should be suing in a couple of weeks now.  

CFPB employees about to really be screwed.  

 

Let me ask this question.  You're company tells you on January 12, 2025 that you can resign effective September 1, 2025 and you don't have to report in.   You don't do any work for three months, and get paid not doing it, and on April 12, 2025, you're company does a huge RIF (lack of funding) where everyone in your department is fired, including you.  Instead of resigning effective January 12, 2025, you are separated on April 12, 2025.

What are your damages?  Under what theory?   

What are the damages of the folks who didn't take the deal and worked January 12, 2025 - April 12, 2025?  What theory.

 

 

 

Not an employment lawyer, but those that resigned and took severance are no longer at-will employees, but governed by a contract to pay severance for a set term in order to terminate employment.    At minimum, there's a promissory estoppel/detrimental reliance problem for the employer.

You seem to imply that before resigning for severance, they were at-will employees and could have no expectation of continued employment/salary.  The resignation/severance agreement changes all that.

As noted in the lawfare article I have posted twice, that's not a clear thing with the federal government as an employer.

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Posted
2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Not an employment lawyer, but those that resigned and took severance are no longer at-will employees, but governed by a contract to pay severance for a set term in order to terminate employment.    At minimum, there's a promissory estoppel/detrimental reliance problem for the employer.

You seem to imply that before resigning for severance, they were at-will employees and could have no expectation of continued employment/salary.  The resignation/severance agreement changes all that.

As noted in the lawfare article I have posted twice, that's not a clear thing with the federal government as an employer

All of this is based on not seeing any release doc they may have signed. 

I don't think they were ever truly employment at will but doesn't matter because they resigned.

The release will govern what was actually promised.  I think the pinch points are in the garden leave aspects of the agreement.  That's where the mischief will likely lie.

As to promissory estoppel, that's going to be fact specific.  That's where all of us will get screwed in terms of the cost of the lawsuits.

Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

All of this is based on not seeing any release doc they may have signed. 

I don't think they were ever truly employment at will but doesn't matter because they resigned.

The release will govern what was actually promised.  I think the pinch points are in the garden leave aspects of the agreement.  That's where the mischief will likely lie.

As to promissory estoppel, that's going to be fact specific.  That's where all of us will get screwed in terms of the cost of the lawsuits.

That lawfare article I think addresses all of these issues including the causes of action screwed employees may have and the weaknesses thereof.

I disagree that this is truly voluntary in the sense that I think many that take the deal are essentially being defrauded, but time will tell.

However, like Bevo in VA, many do seem to be going into this with their eyes open so to speak.  And those may be the biggest brain drain of all.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Posted
8 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

those that resigned and took severance are no longer at-will employees, but governed by a contract to pay severance for a set term in order to terminate employment

Which would be enforced by the government?  One party to said contract?

Posted
4 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Which would be enforced by the government?  One party to said contract?

If serious, a private sector at-will employee would normally have no cause of action/lawsuit for wrongful termination or breach of contract if fired/laid off for budgetary (non-discriminatory) reasons.

However, one under a resignation/severance agreement probably has a lawsuit/cause of action for breach of that agreement, even if, in the absence of the contract, they could have been fired at any time for any (non-discriminatory) reason, the usual hallmark of at-will employees.

Federal employees are not strictly at-will, I don't believe, but continued employment depends on continued funding of their employer by Congress.   A contract for severance pay would seem to alter that relationship into one governed by the contract, but there are all kinds of problems with suing the federal government even on a contract.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

All of this is based on not seeing any release doc they may have signed. 

I don't think they were ever truly employment at will but doesn't matter because they resigned.

The release will govern what was actually promised.  I think the pinch points are in the garden leave aspects of the agreement.  That's where the mischief will likely lie.

As to promissory estoppel, that's going to be fact specific.  That's where all of us will get screwed in terms of the cost of the lawsuits.

Nothing involving government is ever mundane employment law stuff. It just isn't. Go ask Mike Leach (RIP). Your faith that somehow the existence of an agreement means that agreement is actually enforceable against the Federal Government is misplaced and laughable. That isn't how these cases work. Ever. And it sure as shit isn't how its worked out for Elon's employees, and there Elon didn't even have King's X card to play. 

Edited by Dahobbs
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Posted
4 hours ago, immamac said:

Thanks for the complete response. I wish you luck and hope you find retirement a great opportunity to pursue something you love doing and maybe turn it into another source of income! 

if I go to retire and someone tells me to turn my hobbies into paying work, I'm kicking their shin. the whole point of retirement is to stop working. if you're still working, you're not retired. /rantover

Posted
9 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

if I go to retire and someone tells me to turn my hobbies into paying work, I'm kicking their shin. the whole point of retirement is to stop working. if you're still working, you're not retired. /rantover

What? I don't think you read my post right. I said exactly that. Have fun and if it turns into money that's a plus. 

Posted
46 minutes ago, immamac said:

What? I don't think you read my post right. I said exactly that. Have fun and if it turns into money that's a plus. 

I don't think serial masturbator is a high demand profession.  

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Posted
12 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

I don't think serial masturbator is a high demand profession.  

There is probably a niche audience he could find to start an onlyfans account.

Posted
On 2/14/2025 at 2:11 AM, Bevo in VA said:

I took the offer so I'll update as far as getting paid.  Got a contract to sign today.  Last day of work is Feb 28th - turn in all of my equipment at that time.  I would have gladly continued working up until the Sept 30th resignation date but that wasn't presented as an option.  Was given instructions that after Feb 28th, my timekeeper and/or boss would enter all hours into my time sheet as Administrative Leave.  I'm only a couple of years from retirement eligibility anyways, so I plan on taking early retirement in September with minimal hit to my benefits.

 

I took it, but I have been retirement eligible for 8 years anyway and was planning on retiring later this year.  I've only worked this long because I like my job and believe my agency performs a critical function.

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Posted
22 hours ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

if I go to retire and someone tells me to turn my hobbies into paying work, I'm kicking their shin. the whole point of retirement is to stop working. if you're still working, you're not retired. /rantover

some people find making money fun. making money, eating good food, travel and getting laid are probably my four favorite things in life. it's how they make it and the demand that they have to make it and in a certain amount that isn't fun. retirement is a choose your own adventure, I highly suspect I will need a business endeavor or at least a business-like problem to solve (example board service for non-profits) in order to be happy. but the daily grind of working and billing hours, yeah gtfooh.

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Posted
On 2/14/2025 at 9:28 AM, Dahobbs said:

Nothing involving government is ever mundane employment law stuff. It just isn't. Go ask Mike Leach (RIP). Your faith that somehow the existence of an agreement means that agreement is actually enforceable against the Federal Government is misplaced and laughable. That isn't how these cases work. Ever. And it sure as shit isn't how its worked out for Elon's employees, and there Elon didn't even have King's X card to play. 

They’ve breached/stopped paying out on contracts with organizations that have hundreds of millions. Any individual employee who thinks they’re ever going to get their day in court for their “resignation” not being paid out is living in fantasy land.

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Posted
5 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

Soooo, exactly like we all predicted? Shocking, I tell ya!

Zero sympathy whatsoever for anyone who trusts dumb fuck.

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Posted

My sister began working for the VA less than a year ago after 20+ years in the private sector as an imaging tech. She took a cut in pay to be part of the mission and to have the chance to work more directly with her patients and to get out of the "take a number" cycle she'd been in for decades. She loves her new position, but is now torn with anxiety knowing that she's still in her probationary period and her fate is in the hands of dotard and fucktard Musk. 

Welcome to 'Merica. Where you can make personal sacrifices to serve our country's veterans, but your services may be determined to be not needed by a draft dodging, felonious rapist and a neo-nazi supporting illegal immigrant.

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Posted
6 hours ago, GhostOfTomJoad said:

My sister began working for the VA less than a year ago after 20+ years in the private sector as an imaging tech. She took a cut in pay to be part of the mission and to have the chance to work more directly with her patients and to get out of the "take a number" cycle she'd been in for decades. She loves her new position, but is now torn with anxiety knowing that she's still in her probationary period and her fate is in the hands of dotard and fucktard Musk. 

Welcome to 'Merica. Where you can make personal sacrifices to serve our country's veterans, but your services may be determined to be not needed by a draft dodging, felonious rapist and a neo-nazi supporting illegal immigrant.

Donald Glover GIF by Childish Gambino

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Posted
17 hours ago, aggie08 said:

Zero sympathy whatsoever for anyone who trusts dumb fuck.

The people getting screwed here almost certainly chose to take the “Fork” over getting terminated within their probationary period. And they were almost certainly fired illegally because the muskrats are telling people they are being terminated for performance en masse, even those with great reviews. And now they’re getting fucked.

It’s not so much trusting Musk and Trump so much as people trying to grasp for a straw in a shitty situation.  A reminder that authoritarian states try to divide the people they victimize against each other. 

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Posted
1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

Seems likely that they used the "Fork In The Road" to identify those they could fire without kicking up much fuss.

does this not have class action lawsuit written all over it?

Posted
1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The people getting screwed here almost certainly chose to take the “Fork” over getting terminated within their probationary period. And they were almost certainly fired illegally because the muskrats are telling people they are being terminated for performance en masse, even those with great reviews. And now they’re getting fucked.

It’s not so much trusting Musk and Trump so much as people trying to grasp for a straw in a shitty situation.  A reminder that authoritarian states try to divide the people they victimize against each other. 

Well said. I rescind my snarky comment. People choosing between a rock and a hard place and hoping for the best have my sympathy.

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Posted
On 2/14/2025 at 9:18 AM, troph said:

Hang with me… the real objection that invalidates the whole is at the end… In theory there are a number of actions that are being talked about that I could quibble with how around the edges but the idea isn’t objectionable - cutting expenses, consolidating real estate, selling surplus property, reducing headcount, eliminating fraud, etc. that is what they are talking about doing,  it it’s not what they are ACTUALLY doing.

they are destroying the government, running off talent, extracting revenge, hiring extreme loyalists, taking what they want, violating the constitution, and in most cases so that they can lower taxes or remove obstacles to their power and wealth grab. They promised to fight for the working class, they use the language still but the bigly actions aren’t so much anti-woke, anti-queer, even anti-immigrant - that’s all a smoke screen, cutting costs and expenses, also a smoke screen, they want lower taxes and a weaker government so that the oligarchs can take more without risk of oversight or penalties. 

the big companies get this, and those that can have already turned over almost $100m to DJT in the form of law suit settlements. It’s fucking transparent. He sues, they don’t claim their fundamental first amendment right, they pay. 

foreign policy is also for sale. Selling technology to India? Grift indirectly. Trying to settle the war in Ukraine to the objection of Ukraine and Europe, also a grift. Suspending FCpA enforcement, direct grift. Trump is basically saying this how the world works, oligarchs and grift, common man hating each other and smoke screen the whole thing while you power grab, rape the earth, and destroy humanity. And on the back side Trump and his cronies will get paid.

this is all an oligarch grift. And they will say anything and do anything to keep the religious and the working classes distracted. So yes, queer folk, immigrants, etc will be sacrificed so the focus is on them, not the grift.

Basically they think they have a majority of the electorate allowing the infiltration of extreme Christianity into the government, persecuting LGBTQ folk, controlling women’s bodies, and demonizing brown people. But that is not what they care about. That’s only how they acquire and retain power.  They only care about the grift.

focus on what they do, not what they say. What they say is propaganda. What they do is the real motivation. 

if I had a prayers chance in heaven to win state wide or federal office this is would be my stump speech. I’d pound that mother fucker into the ground with it. Because it’s true. 

They just laid off a lot of forestry/mgmt and park rangers.  Wonder if the National Parks are about to be in play to be sold off.

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Posted
10 minutes ago, Mdhorn said:

They just laid off a lot of forestry/mgmt and park rangers.  Wonder if the National Parks are about to be in play to be sold off.

There's no "wonder" about it.  

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mdhorn said:

They just laid off a lot of forestry/mgmt and park rangers.  Wonder if the National Parks are about to be in play to be sold off.

You ask me what do I care more about than lgbtq rights? Constitution and national parks/climate/environment are it. Fuck.

Edited by troph
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Posted
7 minutes ago, troph said:

You ask me what do I care more about than lgbtq rights? Constitution and national parks/climate/environment are it. Fuck.

Me too. It’s where I go to keep my sanity. 

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Posted
1 minute ago, Mdhorn said:

Me too. It’s where I go to keep my sanity. 

Seeing Obama and Biden EXPAND federally protect d lands and waters made me happy. This guy is something else.

Posted

It’s all for sale. How the rich see the world. All the dumb fuck, mouth breathers that are rah rah America. Yep, nationalism is for sale. Musk up front should have told you. 

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Posted
On 2/14/2025 at 8:55 AM, TwiceHorn said:

As O.W. Holmes said, paraphrased, payment of taxes buys civilization.

I think we're about to find out what a civilization refund looks like.


I have a friend who is a general contractor who is doing very well.  He swears he's just not going to file this year.

Posted

It's going to be funny when the Republican Congress claims "We never authorized those buyout packages, they were promised by someone with no authority!"  Then they have to bend over backwards into pretzels to explain how the guy firing them and offering the bogus buyouts was legally allowed to do some of that, but not the part where they get paid. 

Posted
On 2/16/2025 at 9:34 PM, Hornius Emeritus said:


I have a friend who is a general contractor who is doing very well.  He swears he's just not going to file this year.

As someone who doesn't want to pay taxes and find them detestable, please let us know how this goes. I assume it will go about as smooth as it did for ole Wesley Snipes. But I'm rooting for him nevertheless.

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