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American Airlines flight 5342 (CRJ) collides with Army UH-60 at DCA.


UnivTex34

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This is fairly accurate of FAA controlled towers and ARTCC’s across the country, too much demand not enough bodies. 

This. There is a new plan in place to train more controllers via the FAA enhanced CTI program where schools like ERAU and Oklahoma will train new controllers. They all employ retired or former FAA controllers to teach this program and they use a multitude of training and simulation software.
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My guess is that the ATC is going to take some blame for not providing specific detailed approach information vs. just stating if they see the incoming aircraft. The Blackhawk crew will receive most of the blame, and unless something extreme comes up in the aircraft black box, AA will be absolved from any wrongdoing or liability.

The controller should have probably said “hey do you have that traffic at your 10 o’clock high on sight”
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1 minute ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:


The controller should have probably said “hey do you have that traffic at your 10 o’clock high on sight”

IIRC in the radio logs, the CRJ had a last-minute course change from the tower. I can totally see the heli pilot losing visual for a moment and then picking up on a different airliner as their "track" aircraft.

Tower probably could have done things better, but they're also juggling a shitton of other aircraft in the area on razor thin margins and likely didn't have the mental bandwidth to add all the extra detail before context switching to the next ten thousand pound metal tube traveling hundreds of miles an hour holding hundreds of souls.

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38 minutes ago, SameSame said:

They are going to scrutinize the fuck out of her career.  Every training mission, any deployments/combat missions, anyone who ever graded her for promotions better get their shit organized.   

They might even bring up her high school PE class where she used to cut in front of the boys during dodge ball.

What about the other pilot?  Heck he might be some kinda minority, or gay, or ?

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6 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Because he fired everyone who sat on the Aviation Security Committee

https://apnews.com/article/coast-guard-homeland-security-priorities-committees-trump-tsa-d3e4398c8871ada8d0590859442e092c

The aviation security committee, which was mandated by Congress after the 1988 PanAm 103 bombing over Lockerbie, Scotland, will technically continue to exist but it won’t have any members to carry out the work of examining safety issues at airlines and airports. Before Tuesday, the group included representatives of all the key groups in the industry — including the airlines and major unions — as well as members of a group associated with the victims of the PanAm 103 bombing. The vast majority of the group’s recommendations were adopted over the years.

...

“I naively thought, ‘oh they’re not going to do anything in the new administration, to put security at risk — aviation security at risk.’ But I’m not so sure,” said Stephanie Bernstein, whose husband was killed in the bombing and served on the committee.

The future of the committee remains unclear because DHS officials didn’t respond Tuesday to questions about the move. The memo that announced the terminations said that future committee activities will be focused on “advancing our critical mission to protect the homeland and support DHS’s strategic priorities” but the group has no members.

Adding to Bernstein’s concern is the fact that TSA Administrator David Pekoske was fired even though he was originally appointed by Trump during his first term and was in the middle of what was supposed to be Pekoske’s second five-year term in the job after he was reappointed by Biden and confirmed by the Senate.

Yeah I did see that. However- I think it’s reasonable to shake things up and not automatically say that the whole system is being gutted. We don’t know that. The termination of this committee had zero to do with what happened yesterday. TSA/DHS have really good tools and operate efficiently compared to say… making a flight change at LHR terminal 5. This committee, formed after Lockerbie… didn’t exactly prevent 9/11. Maybe it’s useless. Maybe it’s useful. I don’t know, but TSA, Customs & Border, DHS seems to be functioning ok. They know my flight itinerary better than I do. 

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1 minute ago, shakahorn said:

What about the other pilot?  Heck he might be some kinda minority, or gay, or ?

You're right, a female and a hint of any other type of minority...this was a recipe for disaster.   It was bound to happen.

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i mean lots of things have zero to do with what happened yesterday, but that's not stopping people from getting on front of a microphone and pointing fingers. it's just 'common sense' lol.

Edited by mchookem
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IIRC in the radio logs, the CRJ had a last-minute course change from the tower. I can totally see the heli pilot losing visual for a moment and then picking up on a different airliner as their "track" aircraft.
Tower probably could have done things better, but they're also juggling a shitton of other aircraft in the area on razor thin margins and likely didn't have the mental bandwidth to add all the extra detail before context switching to the next ten thousand pound metal tube traveling hundreds of miles an hour holding hundreds of souls.

Agree. Back in my Navy flying days a Navy Tower controller tried to kill me. Turn over was occurring in the Tower and they lost SA. Luckily I hadn’t lost SA.
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As a guy who doesn't know anything about ATC, where do we find the people for those jobs, do they come out of the military or elsewhere, because I can't imagine wanting the job where you can kill a bunch of people if you fuck up badly enough. Seeing prices go up and down in ag commodities is more than enough for me. 

Edited by Royalfan5
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Just now, Royalfan5 said:

As a guy who doesn't know anything about ATC, where do we find the people for those jobs, do they come out of the military or elsewhere, because I can't imagine wanting the job where you can a bunch of people if you fuck up badly enough. Seeing prices go up and down in ag commodities is more than enough for me. 

Military and civilian. Have to start training by like 35 and have to retire by… 57ish. So much talk about raising standards, but honestly I think there is a headcount shortage. Raise standards, but also have to raise pay and quality of life. 

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As a guy who doesn't know anything about ATC, where do we find the people for those jobs, do they come out of the military or elsewhere, because I can't imagine wanting the job where you can a bunch of people if you fuck up badly enough. Seeing prices go up and down in ag commodities is more than enough for me. 

The FAA does recruit military controllers. The FAA runs a training academy in Oklahoma City.
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6 minutes ago, Royalfan5 said:

As a guy who doesn't know anything about ATC, where do we find the people for those jobs, do they come out of the military or elsewhere, because I can't imagine wanting the job where you can a bunch of people if you fuck up badly enough. Seeing prices go up and down in ag commodities is more than enough for me. 

There are apparently a couple of universities that offer majors in ATC now.  This happened thanks to a push from the FAA, who didn't have enough facilities to train enough people.  

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If you reduced the chances of a fatal airline crash to one in 1 million, you’d have an airline crash every 23 days in America. Something happening successfully thousands and thousands of times without incident is not nearly enough to declare it a safe procedure.   

If we crashed airplanes at the same rate as in the 70s, given today's volume of traffic, there'd be one of these almost every week. The system has come a long way.
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2 minutes ago, DaysOff said:


If we crashed airplanes at the same rate as in the 70s, given today's volume of traffic, there'd be one of these almost every week. The system has come a long way.

In that case this would be me

 

image.jpeg.11a7c4ffbeeb927367aef9cb949ca652.jpeg

 

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20 minutes ago, Gucci_Suit said:

Military and civilian. Have to start training by like 35 and have to retire by… 57ish. So much talk about raising standards, but honestly I think there is a headcount shortage. Raise standards, but also have to raise pay and quality of life. 

there's been a headcount shortage for years and there's also repeating waves of retirements that happen due to a lot of ATCs all being hired at the same time in the early 1980s and all aging out at the same time. which then necessitates a big wave of hiring, and all of them age out at about the same time. repeat every 25 or so years.

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42 minutes ago, Captainant said:

IIRC in the radio logs, the CRJ had a last-minute course change from the tower. I can totally see the heli pilot losing visual for a moment and then picking up on a different airliner as their "track" aircraft.

Tower probably could have done things better, but they're also juggling a shitton of other aircraft in the area on razor thin margins and likely didn't have the mental bandwidth to add all the extra detail before context switching to the next ten thousand pound metal tube traveling hundreds of miles an hour holding hundreds of souls.

The air space of DC is insane. When I eat lunch on the roof of my building, the planes are landing and taking off 1 min apart on #1. Occasionally landing/taking off on the other two, and there is always at least 1, if not 2-3 helicopters knocking around the city. I used to watch it to empty my mind, but not anymore.

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21 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I hate flying in those little CRJs. 

Funny story (kinda):  I was getting on a RJ and noticed the pilots were really young.  I texted my old flight instructor who is with Delta now, and told him they look like children.  He then said its beeter than somebody in their 40s or 50s because that means there is a possibility that they F'd up. 

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In the USA:

-Airlines are well run by smart people who have a passion for it. Generally speaking.

-Airlines are safer than walking 2 blocks in any metro downtown

-Airlines provide reasonable service to a bunch of drunk entitled asses and Karens

-Airlines have invested in tech to make your experience better

-Airline fleets are newer and more advanced than ever before  

-TSA stops almost 100% of threats

-TSA processes travelers at a really quick rate. 

-TSA is surprisingly friendly despite all the idiots and Karens

-Airports (like AUS) are generally undersized and not able to meet demand, which makes people angry

-ATC successfully directs millions of aircraft movements all day and every day. 

-Customs/Border knows the background of most passengers before they ever present to an agent. 

-Tech, AI, and systems spending should far outpace human spending in the next 10 years. Which will lead to more “they fired us” articles.

-This trend has been occurring for about 10-12 years, spanning a few presidential administrations and therefore ruining political narratives. It’s just a shared common value that as Americans we will have the best and most professional air travel in the world. And this is what we indeed have. Fly through a storm in Asia and tell me you wouldn’t just be begging for an AA pilot, an American ATC person, and a glass of Kentucky whiskey. I’ve been there. 

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12 minutes ago, Gucci_Suit said:

Airlines are safer than walking 2 blocks in any metro downtown

Probably, but falling out of the sky and having time to think about it all doesn't really appeal to me. 

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6 minutes ago, immamac said:

for those that didn't get the memo this thread should be somewhat dry and all commentary should be tied to the accident itself

I don't see the point of delineation here and the need for 2 threads. Pretty much all the info about the actual crash that's going to be publicly released has already been released. There's not going to be anything new released until the politicians get their slimy hands on it and find their scapegoat. 

Everyone died. No human survives that. Even if one survived hitting that water, they succumbed to hypothermia within an hour. 

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Just now, Hermanator said:

I don't see the point of delineation here and the need for 2 threads. Pretty much all the info about the actual crash that's going to be publicly released has already been released. There's not going to be anything new released until the politicians get their slimy hands on it and find their scapegoat. 

Everyone died. No human survives that. Even if one survived hitting that water, they succumbed to hypothermia within an hour. 

yeah, which is why people who want updates can watch this thread and when there is some they can come here, everyone else can go to the other thread until there's updates. It was the same thing for the Robb elementary thread, there is precedent. 

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Eerily similar to an incident in 2013, same runway approach with another military helicopter.

Quote

The jetliner, Republic Airlines Flight 3281 originating in Columbus, Ohio, was northbound, descending to Runway 33 at Reagan National Airport about 4:05 p.m. Friday, FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said in a statement. 

The southbound helicopter was flying on “helicopter route 4,” on the east side of the Potomac River. Both aircraft were on the same radio frequency and the two pilots had each other in sight, Brown said.

The controller told the helicopter pilot to pass below and behind the passenger jet, which the helicopter confirmed he would do, Brown said. 

The pilot of the helicopter had “briefly climbed” to the altitude of 400 feet at the same time the passenger aircraft passed that altitude on descent, Brown said.

 

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2 hours ago, bolverk said:

image.png.fa93fa5e6e2266314efe98f716171641.png

2 hours ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

What people seem to be missing is that the training appears to be keeping current at night and flying the routes that their VIP transport missions require. It wasn’t like hey let’s just go fly by DCA for fun.

2 hours ago, Laxtonto said:

My guess is that the ATC is going to take some blame for not providing specific detailed approach information vs. just stating if they see the incoming aircraft. The Blackhawk crew will receive most of the blame, and unless something extreme comes up in the aircraft black box, AA will be absolved from any wrongdoing or liability.

 

That's the shitty thing for the pilots - they were only doing this because of the VIP service the Army provides, so the pilots and Army will be blamed, whether right or wrong, and that narrative has already been pushed out to the media.  

One of two things will happen:

  1. They will temporarily suspend these flights, and then quietly resume them, because the VIPs they ferry are not going to be inconvenienced by limo rides.
  2. The Army will completely stop doing these VIP flights in the D.C. area (POTUS rides a Marine Corps helicopter).

My money is on #1.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

I hate flying in those little CRJs. 

I love it.  You often get the single seat on the left side.   No baggage claim even if you don't pay for priority boarding.   And you can feel every little wind gust and tweak to the control column in your seat.  Fun stuff.

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19 minutes ago, Updawg said:

So these VIP flights are basically just Army taxis for politicians to get around town?

I assume this is paid for by taxpayers?

It's good and bad.   It allows the pilots to get more flight hours.   The bad it costs a shit ton of money.  The bad is also the VIPs sometimes demand it.  

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6 minutes ago, ClubWhatever said:

I love it.  You often get the single seat on the left side.   No baggage claim even if you don't pay for priority boarding.   And you can feel every little wind gust and tweak to the control column in your seat.  Fun stuff.

Are you a manlet?

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2 hours ago, Royalfan5 said:

As a guy who doesn't know anything about ATC, where do we find the people for those jobs, do they come out of the military or elsewhere, because I can't imagine wanting the job where you can kill a bunch of people if you fuck up badly enough. Seeing prices go up and down in ag commodities is more than enough for me. 

The only guy I know that works ATC was in the National Guard or Army reserve (I forget which) where they trained him as well as attending TSTC then he picked up a spot in some small regional airport before moving on to a bigger airport.

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1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

I hate flying in those little CRJs. 

Among the many issues i have with them is having to leave your bag at the door... then wait an agonizing amount of time for the handlers to retrieve them.  Often times the jet bridge is too hot or too cold, crowded with wheel chairs, crew changes , gate agents yelling to line up on the right...then compound with all the novice travelers standing around, having no clue what is going on waiting for their checked bags thinking they are one of the pink tag people...completely inefficient and maddening especially if you have a close connect..Absolute shit show.

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32 minutes ago, Updawg said:

So these VIP flights are basically just Army taxis for politicians to get around town?

I assume this is paid for by taxpayers?

Today HMX-1 also supports the Vice President, Secretary of Defense, Secretary of the Navy, Commandant of the Marine Corps, and all visiting Heads of States in the Washington, D.C. area. https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/HMX-1

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2 hours ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:


Agree. Back in my Navy flying days a Navy Tower controller tried to kill me. Turn over was occurring in the Tower and they lost SA. Luckily I hadn’t lost SA.

“It’s times like this, oh where I feel a bit resigned…to just fuckin eject, rather than admit that I was blind”

Not fully relevant, but hope you know some Dos Gringos…you drove Orions right?

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I had a 1 PM flight to DFW out of DCA today which was cancelled since we had no incoming plane. Wound up rebooking through Tampa and l got to Reagan right at 11 when flights resumed this morning. Shit loads of media everywhere outside and some by the American ticketing counter. It was eerily quiet in the terminal until noon then seemed to quickly get back to business as usual. Got to say it was pretty fucking surreal taking off and seeing the wreckage and search boats right there. Lots of folks also watching the news coverage on their phones while we were in the air didn’t make it any less bizarre. 

It’s kind of amazing this doesn’t happen more often with how many civilian and military aircraft operate so closely in that airspace.

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DCA is Congress' favorite airport because it takes 15 to 20 minutes to get there from Capitol Hill. Meanwhile not only does Dulles airport suck beyond comprehension, it takes at least an hour to get there from the Capitol. Given the shortage of airspace and controllers, closing DCA and consolidating would be the most logical response but lawmakers would never go for it. 

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4 minutes ago, Chilly Water said:

I had a 1 PM flight to DFW out of DCA today which was cancelled since we had no incoming plane. Wound up rebooking through Tampa and l got to Reagan right at 11 when flights resumed this morning. Shit loads of media everywhere outside and some by the American ticketing counter. It was eerily quiet in the terminal until noon then seemed to quickly get back to business as usual. Got to say it was pretty fucking surreal taking off and seeing the wreckage and search boats right there. Lots of folks also watching the news coverage on their phones while we were in the air didn’t make it any less bizarre. 

It’s kind of amazing this doesn’t happen more often with how many civilian and military aircraft operate so closely in that airspace.

It does not happen because ATC and pilots tend to be very good at their jobs and care about safety.

Oh, and user name kind of checks out if talking about the Potomac.

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3 minutes ago, Chopper said:

DCA is Congress' favorite airport because it takes 15 to 20 minutes to get there from Capitol Hill. Meanwhile not only does Dulles airport suck beyond comprehension, it takes at least an hour to get there from the Capitol. Given the shortage of airspace and controllers, closing DCA and consolidating would be the most logical response but lawmakers would never go for it. 

I hate Dulles. And their fucking moon rovers.

I responded to a post that it in the wrong thread. I am not moving it. It remains for posterity.

Edited by InkaUtexas
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36 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Today HMX-1 also supports the Vice President, Secretary of Defense, Secretary of the Navy, Commandant of the Marine Corps, and all visiting Heads of States in the Washington, D.C. area. https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/HMX-1

Most of the people you listed fly in and out of Andrews, which can take  1-2 hours by car if traffic is bad. So they take Blackhawks back and forth. 
 

one of the problems with DCA is the Congress critters don’t want to fly out of IAD or BWI so they keep adding directs to an airport the size of a postage stamp that is already way way way over capacity. 
 

Including Ted Cruise, who negotiated a deal for American to add a direct to SAT. 

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