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American Airlines flight 5342 (CRJ) collides with Army UH-60 at DCA.


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1 minute ago, 'stache said:

I thought someone posted before, or images from Reddit, that the recordings were availble and indicated a conflict between the flight paths that the helicopter saw and the one the tower told them was happening, or something to that effect. From those posts it seemed to me that the cause might not be difficult to determine. 

It reads most like task saturation by the ATC and the helo pilot. The DCA approach is a fucking doozie and the plane got moved to a different runway while in pattern for final. Combine that with a helo pilot flying that sin against gravity in a busy airspace with aircraft doing last-minute re-vectors.... I can see a swiss cheese model of failure stacking up here.

Sure would be a kick in the balls if we just put off hiring thousands of air traffic controllers as part of a general hiring freeze

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The new SecDef came out and said the crew of the Blackhawk were "fairly experienced" and had on night vision goggles. I thought I read elsewhere that the helo pilot might've been looking at the wrong plane and got confused. 

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5 minutes ago, mdmost said:

The new SecDef came out and said the crew of the Blackhawk were "fairly experienced" and had on night vision goggles. I thought I read elsewhere that the helo pilot might've been looking at the wrong plane and got confused. 

My interpretation was that they saw the plane but thought it was on a further away flight path due to tower communications. I don't fly planes or helicopters but my understanding was that depth perception, especially at night, is difficult in aviation and they rely heavily on not only vision but the tower communications to let them know where the other planes are physically located.

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19 minutes ago, Captainant said:

It reads most like task saturation by the ATC and the helo pilot. The DCA approach is a fucking doozie and the plane got moved to a different runway while in pattern for final. Combine that with a helo pilot flying that sin against gravity in a busy airspace with aircraft doing last-minute re-vectors.... I can see a swiss cheese model of failure stacking up here.

Sure would be a kick in the balls if we just put off hiring thousands of air traffic controllers as part of a general hiring freeze

 

This country is way behind the power curve hiring and training new controllers to replace upcoming retirees. I suspect that's a worldwide problem.

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Please keep this thread to direct discussion about the crash itself, not the surrounding aspects of it. Just information, pilot talk, insights, and direct speculation into what could have been happening that would lead to a tragedy like this.

All other discussion should go to this thread: 

 

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3 hours ago, Texas Fight said:

 

A figure skater was denied from boarding the flight that ended in a fatal collision with a military helicopter near Washington, D.C.on Wednesday because his pet dog was too big, according to Russian state media.

Jon Maravilla told RIA Novosti that he was informed, during check-in, that his dog could not be carried on the flight because of size restrictions. Unable to board the plane, he departed by car.

A U.S. junior bronze medalist in pairs, Maravilla was scheduled to take American Airlines Flight 5342 from Wichita, Kansas to Washington, D.C.
 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/figure-skater-jon-maravilla-reveals-he-missed-doomed-dc-flight-because-of-his-dog/

Dude was flying on a different flight originating in Detroit 

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I get cleared for visual separation, but thought I saw an ADSB map showing the helicopter was climbing up from ~200ft to ~450ft as the CRJ was on short final and likely on glide slope.  Assume that those helicopter tracks have a ceiling restriction there?

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2 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

Now we know what to blame.

But seriously, I've hated every time I've flown into DCA and now I'll hate it even more. I already deal with a healthy fear of flying despite doing it a lot. This is just more nightmare fuel for the fire. 

We really need to overhaul our air traffic safety. Too many close calls recently and it appears to be getting worse. 

It sucks that anyone died, but it especially sucks that it was plane full of talented kids. RIP to all. 

 

update, then over haul is needed across all govt agencies 

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28 minutes ago, immamac said:

Please keep this thread to direct discussion about the crash itself, not the surrounding aspects of it. Just information, pilot talk, insights, and direct speculation into what could have been happening that would lead to a tragedy like this.

All other discussion should go to this thread: 

 

I'm loving that my GIF of the Hound comes up on my screen with your link to the new thread.  

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7 minutes ago, Homercles said:

I get cleared for visual separation, but thought I saw an ADSB map showing the helicopter was climbing up from ~200ft to ~450ft as the CRJ was on short final and likely on glide slope.  Assume that those helicopter tracks have a ceiling restriction there?

According to this guy, the east side of the Potomac is Helo Route 4 and has a ceiling of 200’ 

Taken from this guys analysis, posted by someone else a few pages back:

https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/1idba8i/plane_crash_at_dca/

 

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It strikes me as perhaps a little unduly risky to conduct military training sorties using night vision goggles in the midst of one of the highest civilian air traffic areas in the country where city lights are extensive.  But I guess killing 64 civilians is worth the benefit of keeping our military prepared.

Edited by DDD Dad
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4 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

It strikes me as perhaps a little unduly risky to conduct military training sorties using night vision goggles in the midst of one of the highest civilian air traffic areas in the country where city lights are extensive.  But I guess killing 64 civilians is worth the benefit of keeping our military prepared.

 

makes zero sense 

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5 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

I didn't fly at all yesterday, but what if I had? Really makes you think.

I’m not superstitious on most things but fuck I hate changing flights after I book them. I have this irrational fear that I’m going to get on a flight doomed to crash

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11 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

It strikes me as perhaps a little unduly risky to conduct military training sorties using night vision goggles in the midst of one of the highest civilian air traffic areas in the country where city lights are extensive.  But I guess killing 64 civilians is worth the benefit of keeping our military prepared.

And yet this very activity has probably occurred thousands and thousands of times without incident. 

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7 minutes ago, Hate said:

And yet this very activity has probably occurred thousands and thousands of times without incident. 

Thousands is probably way too high, but I'm sure it's been navigated before many times. 

Although given rot tends to travel from the top down, it might be a more frequent occurrence with the DOD than it's been before. 

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29 minutes ago, Hate said:

And yet this very activity has probably occurred thousands and thousands of times without incident. 

If you reduced the chances of a fatal airline crash to one in 1 million, you’d have an airline crash every 23 days in America. Something happening successfully thousands and thousands of times without incident is not nearly enough to declare it a safe procedure.   

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Staffing was ‘not normal’ at airport tower, according to a preliminary F.A.A. report.
Staffing at the air traffic control tower at Ronald Reagan National Airport was “not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic,” according to an internal preliminary Federal Aviation Administration safety report about the collision that was reviewed by The New York Times.

The controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from its runways. Those jobs typically are assigned to two controllers, rather than one.

This increases the workload for the air traffic controller and can complicate the job. One reason is that the controllers can use different radio frequencies to communicate with pilots flying planes and pilots flying helicopters. While the controller is communicating with pilots of the helicopter and the jet, the two sets of pilots may not be able to hear each other.

Like most of the country’s air traffic control facilities, the tower at Reagan airport has been understaffed for years. The tower there was nearly a third below targeted staff levels, with 19 fully certified controllers as of September 2023, according to the most recent Air Traffic Controller Workforce Plan, an annual report to Congress that contains target and actual staffing levels. The targets set by the F.A.A. and the controllers’ union call for 30.

The shortage — caused by years of employee turnover and tight budgets, among other factors — has forced many controllers to work up to six days a week and 10 hours a day.

The F.A.A. did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

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I fly DCA quite a bit. Actually, I fly AA almost every other day and have for years. With all that flying, I’ve never ever had a single issue but have several times had aborted landings at DCA due to congestion. Only other places I’ve ever had this is SEA and PDX, but that is always due to weather. 
 

Everybody loves DCA… I love sitting at DCA and watching planes land with the Washington monument in the background. But honestly, either the air traffic needs more restriction or they just need to close the airport. LGA has a similar profile, but seems to function better. 

And look, ATC can always get better and I’m sure they will learn from this. But that particular airspace is just messy. 

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6 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Staffing was ‘not normal’ at airport tower, according to a preliminary F.A.A. report.
Staffing at the air traffic control tower at Ronald Reagan National Airport was “not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic,” according to an internal preliminary Federal Aviation Administration safety report about the collision that was reviewed by The New York Times.

The controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from its runways. Those jobs typically are assigned to two controllers, rather than one.

This increases the workload for the air traffic controller and can complicate the job. One reason is that the controllers can use different radio frequencies to communicate with pilots flying planes and pilots flying helicopters. While the controller is communicating with pilots of the helicopter and the jet, the two sets of pilots may not be able to hear each other.

Like most of the country’s air traffic control facilities, the tower at Reagan airport has been understaffed for years. The tower there was nearly a third below targeted staff levels, with 19 fully certified controllers as of September 2023, according to the most recent Air Traffic Controller Workforce Plan, an annual report to Congress that contains target and actual staffing levels. The targets set by the F.A.A. and the controllers’ union call for 30.

The shortage — caused by years of employee turnover and tight budgets, among other factors — has forced many controllers to work up to six days a week and 10 hours a day.

The F.A.A. did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

So what they're saying is, we need more tax cuts.

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2 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

It strikes me as perhaps a little unduly risky to conduct military training sorties using night vision goggles in the midst of one of the highest civilian air traffic areas in the country where city lights are extensive.  But I guess killing 64 civilians is worth the benefit of keeping our military prepared.

@raw dog Care to explain your neg?  Do you not believe that it seems somewhat improvident to conduct military operations in the midst of heavily trafficked civilian airspace?  Or do you just not like sarcasm in pointing out that someone somewhere either made a decision that the risk to civilians was worth the benefit to military readiness or didn't think to consider it?

Edited by DDD Dad
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2 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

@raw dog Care to explain your neg?  Do you not believe that it seems somewhat improvident to conduct military operations in the midst of heavily trafficked civilian airspace?  Or do you just not like sarcasm in pointing out that someone somewhere either made a decision that the risk to civilians was worth the benefit to military readiness?

All you need to know about @raw dog is that a) he's a "new" poster and b) his very first post was in one of the Covid threads.

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59 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

According to this guy, the east side of the Potomac is Helo Route 4 and has a ceiling of 200’ 

Taken from this guys analysis, posted by someone else a few pages back:

https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/1idba8i/plane_crash_at_dca/

 

I heard on the radio this morning that the collision was at 300'.  

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51 minutes ago, bolverk said:

image.png.7729d9965d368f7fdea3929447bc355b.png

They are going to scrutinize the fuck out of her career.  Every training mission, any deployments/combat missions, anyone who ever graded her for promotions better get their shit organized.   

They might even bring up her high school PE class where she used to cut in front of the boys during dodge ball.

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4 minutes ago, SameSame said:

They are going to scrutinize the fuck out of her career.  Every training mission, any deployments/combat missions, anyone who ever graded her for promotions better get their shit organized.   

They might even bring up her high school PE class where she used to cut in front of the boys during dodge ball.

also, and I'm sure they've got top men on it, was it maybe her time of the month?

edit: oops, wrong thread

Edited by Foosters
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24 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

If you reduced the chances of a fatal airline crash to one in 1 million, you’d have an airline crash every 23 days in America. Something happening successfully thousands and thousands of times without incident is not nearly enough to declare it a safe procedure.   

It will be something to keep an eye on going forward to see how many disasters like this, or possible terrorist attacks, we start seeing with a gutted TSA and other federal aviation safety entities. 

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7 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

@raw dog Care to explain your neg?  Do you not believe that it seems somewhat improvident to conduct military operations in the midst of heavily trafficked civilian airspace?  Or do you just not like sarcasm in pointing out that someone somewhere either made a decision that the risk to civilians was worth the benefit to military readiness?

I'm not a pilot, have no military experience, and have only been to DC a few times in my life so I have no insight into whether or not that is a good place for training flights. I'm sure that if decision makers had believed there was any significant chance of a mid-air collision with a commercial airliner, then they wouldn't be using that space. Therefore, your implication even if sarcastic, that this was a tradeoff that was considered was asinine. Not funny, not witty, not insightful. You should try to sequester whatever part of your brain that thought you should share that with people. It's probably hurting you in every day life.

Hope that clears it up.

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10 minutes ago, SameSame said:

They are going to scrutinize the fuck out of her career.  Every training mission, any deployments/combat missions, anyone who ever graded her for promotions better get their shit organized.   

They might even bring up her high school PE class where she used to cut in front of the boys during dodge ball.

I heard they had her on a tractor when she was 9, almost hit the barn.

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2 minutes ago, raw dog said:

I'm not a pilot, have no military experience, and have only been to DC a few times in my life so I have no insight into whether or not that is a good place for training flights. I'm sure that if decision makers had believed there was any significant chance of a mid-air collision with a commercial airliner, then they wouldn't be using that space. Therefore, your implication even if sarcastic, that this was a tradeoff that was considered was asinine. Not funny, not witty, not insightful. You should try to sequester whatever part of your brain that thought you should share that with people. It's probably hurting you in every day life.

Hope that clears it up.

image.png.fa93fa5e6e2266314efe98f716171641.png

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35 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Staffing was ‘not normal’ at airport tower, according to a preliminary F.A.A. report.
Staffing at the air traffic control tower at Ronald Reagan National Airport was “not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic,” according to an internal preliminary Federal Aviation Administration safety report about the collision that was reviewed by The New York Times.

The controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from its runways. Those jobs typically are assigned to two controllers, rather than one.

This increases the workload for the air traffic controller and can complicate the job. One reason is that the controllers can use different radio frequencies to communicate with pilots flying planes and pilots flying helicopters. While the controller is communicating with pilots of the helicopter and the jet, the two sets of pilots may not be able to hear each other.

Like most of the country’s air traffic control facilities, the tower at Reagan airport has been understaffed for years. The tower there was nearly a third below targeted staff levels, with 19 fully certified controllers as of September 2023, according to the most recent Air Traffic Controller Workforce Plan, an annual report to Congress that contains target and actual staffing levels. The targets set by the F.A.A. and the controllers’ union call for 30.

The shortage — caused by years of employee turnover and tight budgets, among other factors — has forced many controllers to work up to six days a week and 10 hours a day.

The F.A.A. did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

This is fairly accurate of FAA controlled towers and ARTCC’s across the country, too much demand not enough bodies. 

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12 minutes ago, Hermanator said:

It will be something to keep an eye on going forward to see how many disasters like this, or possible terrorist attacks, we start seeing with a gutted TSA and other federal aviation safety entities. 

Serious question, why do you expect gutted TSA and aviation security? The tech used in the US is far superior to most everywhere, including the UK and Germany. 

And just to clarify, I mean passenger screening, not ATC. 

Edited by Gucci_Suit
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Sorry to interrupt the CR/DEI cat fight. 
 

“I saw the crash on the news. I didn’t think there was any way it was my son. But then I watched long enough to figure out it was my son’s airline and then I kind of know his schedule. And so I called his fiancee, confirmed, like, hey was Sam in Wichita? Yes, he was, was he going to to DCA? Yes, he was. So then I had to tell her. It was just an ugly scene.

“You know what, I was OK for five, maybe 10 minutes. And then I bawled for 10 minutes. It’s a bitter, bitter pill to swallow. But my son knows Jesus and that’s the part that makes it a little easier. But I’m still left behind. We’re all left behind. He was loved by so many people.”

tailwinds to the crew
 

https://liveandletsfly.com/american-airlines-5342-crew/


 

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1 hour ago, HenryJames said:

I didn't fly at all yesterday, but what if I had? Really makes you think.

I did, my flight aborted a landing attempt and had to circle the airport for another attempt.  I didn’t really think much of it at the time as that’s happened a time or two in my life.  The pilot did announce that the issue was related to other aircraft.  He said, “two aircraft in the same spot won’t work”
 

As I sit here now I do have a bit of a pit in my stomach and wondering if I really, really lucked out or if it’s pure coincidence.

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I'm not a pilot, have no military experience, and have only been to DC a few times in my life so I have no insight into whether or not that is a good place for training flights. I'm sure that if decision makers had believed there was any significant chance of a mid-air collision with a commercial airliner, then they wouldn't be using that space. Therefore, your implication even if sarcastic, that this was a tradeoff that was considered was asinine. Not funny, not witty, not insightful. You should try to sequester whatever part of your brain that thought you should share that with people. It's probably hurting you in every day life.
Hope that clears it up.

What people seem to be missing is that the training appears to be keeping current at night and flying the routes that their VIP transport missions require. It wasn’t like hey let’s just go fly by DCA for fun.
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6 minutes ago, Gucci_Suit said:

Serious question, why do you expect gutted TSA and aviation security? The tech used in the US is far superior to most everywhere, including the UK and Germany. 

And just to clarify, I mean passenger screening, not ATC. 

Because he fired everyone who sat on the Aviation Security Committee

https://apnews.com/article/coast-guard-homeland-security-priorities-committees-trump-tsa-d3e4398c8871ada8d0590859442e092c

The aviation security committee, which was mandated by Congress after the 1988 PanAm 103 bombing over Lockerbie, Scotland, will technically continue to exist but it won’t have any members to carry out the work of examining safety issues at airlines and airports. Before Tuesday, the group included representatives of all the key groups in the industry — including the airlines and major unions — as well as members of a group associated with the victims of the PanAm 103 bombing. The vast majority of the group’s recommendations were adopted over the years.

...

“I naively thought, ‘oh they’re not going to do anything in the new administration, to put security at risk — aviation security at risk.’ But I’m not so sure,” said Stephanie Bernstein, whose husband was killed in the bombing and served on the committee.

The future of the committee remains unclear because DHS officials didn’t respond Tuesday to questions about the move. The memo that announced the terminations said that future committee activities will be focused on “advancing our critical mission to protect the homeland and support DHS’s strategic priorities” but the group has no members.

Adding to Bernstein’s concern is the fact that TSA Administrator David Pekoske was fired even though he was originally appointed by Trump during his first term and was in the middle of what was supposed to be Pekoske’s second five-year term in the job after he was reappointed by Biden and confirmed by the Senate.

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My guess is that the ATC is going to take some blame for not providing specific detailed approach information vs. just stating if they see the incoming aircraft. The Blackhawk crew will receive most of the blame, and unless something extreme comes up in the aircraft black box, AA will be absolved from any wrongdoing or liability.

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15 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Apparently the new sec of transportation is some slapdick from the real world Boston. Jesus 

Also only time I flew into that airport we circled and circled, accelerated and went into a steep bank and then all of a sudden were on the ground. Several people blew chunks 

Sir, I can assure you my dog doesn't fly.

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