Why do vets / active duty military support Trump?

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

As mindboggling as Evangelical support for Trump is to my mind, I find it almost equally astounding to find out that he has any fans at all among veterans or active-duty military.

There's this blog called This Ain't Hell (But You Can See It From Here) whose readers and writers seem to consist almost solely of vets, or at least people who claim to be vets.

Here are some highlights of their article on McRaven's open letter to Trump and the comments that came after:

From the article:

McRaven is a "bat shit admiral," a "loon" who needs his security clearance revoked.

And:

Quote

 

He has "embarrassed those who serve and protect this nation with his ignorance and public display of hysterical political angst. What I would give to have a public debate with this attention whore. This an organized attempt, on the part of the media, to attack the President of the United States. There was no Russian collusion by the President…Hillary Clinton blew that election all on her own. The worst anyone could possibly say about what the Russians did on their own was to release exactly what the elitists at the top of the Clinton Campaign were saying to each other about the American people. I, along with roughly half of this nation, already knew they were elitist scum.

Admiral Billy McBitchen should stick to Flipper re-runs and STFU. Her gender fluid needs to be checked. People giving him credit for killing what’s his name is like giving me credit for winning the Super Bowl because I watched it on TV. I don’t agree with everything President Trump does…needy little attention whores like Billy here just make me move further into the Trump corner. Letting the Left use him as a tool just shows how brainless he is. He most definitely needs any clearance he has pulled."

 

From the comments:

Quote

 

"Sad to see a SEAL go so far off the deep end…."

"Seems to me McRaven has never made a secret of his left leanings… high flag officers’ politics definitely have a role on whom each administration picks for some commands. McRaven has publicly opposed Trump and conservatives in the past as UT chancellor. The man chose to live in Austin, the “San Francisco of Texas”. ‘Nuff said."

"I thought I would never have to say this, but… it looks like ADM (Ret) McRaven is a rare breed – A retired SEAL with a mangina."

"I served with him at NAVSPECWARGRU TWO. He was a liar then, and he still is. He was known as one of “those” who would do absolutely anything for money and promotion – and that’s how he became an admiral. I also served with Eric Olson, his predecessor at SOCCOM, whom I have utmost respect for. Olson earned it the hard way, receiving a silver star for actions in Somalia. McRaven earned his by bending over for every flag officer walking the hallways in Washington."

"When the whole ‘make your bed’ speech was being hyped, I tracked down some guys who went thru BUD/S with McRaven. The inside joke? He couldn’t make his bed worth a damn."

 

And so on and on and on....

But even if some of this is true, how in any way, shape or form could a military veteran see Trump as somehow preferable to McRaven, who at the very least completed SEAL training, served for 37 years, and did in fact lead the mission that killed Osama. (That Super Bowl analogy is completely regarded -- it's like saying Joe Fan is as responsible for who wins or loses as Darth Belichick is.)  

So you have McRaven on one side and that flaming pussy Trump on the other. This is a guy who thinks he's Billy Badass because he went to military HS. He deferred out of Nam four times over college and once over "bone spurs," mocked a Gold Star family, declared he knows more than all the generals, belittled John McCain for his years as a POW, and bragged about how banging models at Studio 54 was his "own personal Vietnam."

I used to think it was about military service. I understood why so many in the military disliked or outright hated Bill Clinton -- but I thought that was because he too ducked service in Vietnam. But then so many in this same group despise John Kerry for serving in Vietnam, claiming that he lied about his record. And I am surprised this same bunch hasn't gone after Mueller along those same lines, but I guess there is still time for them to try to sell him as a pussy, coward and liar compared to Trump. 

Like I said, it's as hard for me to square that circle as it is to understand how the Envange-os tolerate his serial adulteries, his singular lack of anything like a moral code or sense of ethics, his former status as a mogul in an industry they regard as immoral, his boasting about sexual assault on tape, his, um, flexibility on abortion, his mocking of handicapped people, and the daily ration of lies he spews.

Trump is the exact opposite of what Christians are supposed to be about, and the exact opposite of what soldiers are supposed to be about, and yet he is loved by majorities of both beyond any reaspon

 

 

[Js1 85095]

Quote

I understood why so many in the military disliked or outright hated Bill Clinton -- but I thought that was because he too ducked service in Vietnam. But then so many in this same group despise John Kerry for serving in Vietnam, claiming that he lied about his record.

Team first.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

6 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Team first.

Be interesting to see the mental gymnastics if the Dems put a decorated vet up against Trump. 

[David Dennison 18652]

3 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Team first.

Most of them can't articulate why they are on that team.

[Js1 85095]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Most of them can't articulate why they are on that team.

Yes they can.

GOP = strong on national defense

Dems = weak on defense

 

That's been the playbook for decades.  It's called brainwashing.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

6 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Yes they can.

GOP = strong on national defense

Dems = weak on defense

 

That's been the playbook for decades.  It's called brainwashing.

But who's been better for the rank and file and veterans, as opposed to contractors and their shareholders? 

[David Dennison 18652]

5 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Yes they can.

GOP = strong on national defense

Dems = weak on defense

 

That's been the playbook for decades.  It's called brainwashing.

My bad. I should have said can't accurately articulate.

[Js1 85095]

4 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

But who's been better for the rank and file and veterans, as opposed to contractors and their shareholders? 

Oh I'm well aware.  Whose been better for the middle class and  workers as opposed to the 1% and shareholders?

Doesn't seem to make a difference. It's brainwashing, pure and simple.

GOP = strong on national defense, tax cuts for prosperity

Dems = weak on national defense, tax increases to kill the middle class

 

Decades of misinformation and bad facts.  GOP has to get the middle class and vets to vote against their own interests. Always.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Js1

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

I'm going to be flamed for this but I believe it is education level. Look at Trumps base and there is a direct correlation of less educated being more pro Trump. Evangelicals, rural, military. All typically less educated than other groups. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

Ignorance. Any support for Trump, at its core, is based upon ignorance. 

[lemonlime 5503]

1 minute ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

I'm going to be flamed for this but I believe it is education level. Look at Trumps base and there is a direct correlation of less educated being more pro Trump. Evangelicals, rural, military. All typically less educated than other groups. 

This.  Also,  I thought that the majority of officers do not support trump---it's just the majority of the enlisted.

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

2 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Ignorance. Any support for Trump, at its core, is based upon ignorance. 

A lot of single issue voters that are correct in their support of Trump.

[Born to Run 6565]

Yes they can.
GOP = strong on national defense
Dems = weak on defense
 
That's been the playbook for decades.  It's called brainwashing.

I work with a lot of vets when I can, and there is quite a bit of truth to this. Even though the reality is most of the spending is on Hardware, the GOP gets them blown up more often then reduces funding for services when they get out.

They often largely avoid politics and are under-informed. So they are easy targets for pretty simple tactics from the right. Flag hugging Works, even if you send your minions to fuck up the VA right after you hump the flag.

As with the rest of the GOP I see a lot of them voting against their self interest. (My mother is straight R voter despite relying on ACA, Medicaid and possibly needing Social Security at some point.).

[MidTexHorn 822]

AF vet here. It’s a number of things:

1) most come from the same socio-economic demographics as other Trump supporters. These are mostly working class folks from small towns where jobs are scarce. Easy pickings for a demagogue.

2) lack of education among the enlisted. Again, same demographic as other Trump supporters - working class, no college degree, white folks. 

3) decades of brain washing that the Repubs like the military and are patriots and the Dems are filthy commies. Jane Fonda’s legacy still runs strong in the military.

4) flag waving and simplistic displays of patriotism work really well with enlisted folks and their families. Guess who is really good at playing up that angle and who isn’t. 

5) critical and analytical thinking isn’t exactly a point of emphasis in many parts of the military. Gung ho guys ready to go kill someone are inherently more susceptible to be motivated by simplistic and jingoistic speech. Guess who is more than happy to give them what they want to hear. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

8 minutes ago, MidTexHorn said:

AF vet here. It’s a number of things:

1) most come from the same socio-economic demographics as other Trump supporters. These are mostly working class folks from small towns where jobs are scarce. Easy pickings for a demagogue.

2) lack of education among the enlisted. Again, same demographic as other Trump supporters - working class, no college degree, white folks. 

3) decades of brain washing that the Repubs like the military and are patriots and the Dems are filthy commies. Jane Fonda’s legacy still runs strong in the military.

4) flag waving and simplistic displays of patriotism work really well with enlisted folks and their families. Guess who is really good at playing up that angle and who isn’t. 

5) critical and analytical thinking isn’t exactly a point of emphasis in many parts of the military. Gung ho guys ready to go kill someone are inherently more susceptible to be motivated by simplistic and jingoistic speech. Guess who is more than happy to give them what they want to hear. 

All of this.

Nail -> head

[SameSame 1692]

This vet doesn't

[elfenix 34171]

a friend is a mechanic in the AF and says trump cut away a lot of the rules of engagement red tape and started recruiting again. so, he likes that part. 

same guy also believes fake memes about nancy pelosi because she once said something about passing it so we could find out what was in it, so he doesn't put anything past her. 

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by elfenix

[TwiceHorn 31263]

I think it boils down to this.  The spectre of Vietnam war protestors and spitting on veterans remains vivid, even for those who did not live through it.  And that spectre is inextricably linked to libruls.  And Hillary was very identifiable with that group.

That isn't the whole story, obviously, but unsophisticated, rank and file military (read, enlisted), who are prone to groupthink by their very occupation, are going to be anti-librul, anti-Hillary, and you can just take it from there.

McRaven is easily dismissed as an officer, and a high-ranking one, at that.

Edited August 22, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

21 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think it boils down to this.  The spectre of Vietnam war protestors and spitting on veterans remains vivid, even for those who did not live through it. 

Nobody lived through it:

 

Quote

“So where do these stories come from?”

The reporter was asking about accounts that soldiers returning from Vietnam had been spat on by antiwar activists. I had told her the stories were not true. I told her that, on the contrary, opponents of the war had actually tried to recruit returning veterans. I told her about a 1971 Harris Poll survey that found that 99 percent of veterans said their reception from friends and family had been friendly, and 94 percent said their reception from age-group peers, the population most likely to have included the spitters, was friendly.

A follow-up poll, conducted in 1979 for the Veterans Administration (now the Department of Veterans Affairs), reported that former antiwar activists had warmer feelings toward Vietnam veterans than toward congressional leaders or even their erstwhile fellow travelers in the movement.

 

[HOOK'EMHOOAH 1606]

We don't all support him. I cant answer for why there is any of the other veterans or active service members that do, but I am living proof that not all of us support him.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

26 minutes ago, HOOK'EMHOOAH said:

We don't all support him. I cant answer for why there is any of the other veterans or active service members that do, but I am living proof that not all of us support him.

Yeah and I didn't mean to imply that. My son is another exception, and I have a vet buddy (National War College grad -- he says that makes him an army Jedi) who is a third. My son says Trump is closer to 50-50 among the army enlisted these days -- no huge majority, if any, in his experience, but my vet buddy says he would estimate that it's about 75-25 tilted toward the type of guys who vote R blindly under normal circumstances. 

My son is not from the type of background cited in MidTxHorn's great post -- he comes to the army via that other time-honored route: being a fuck-up straight out of HS and getting an ultimatum from his parents. (Nothing too serious -- mainly, it was that all he wanted to do was sit around getting high and playing video games, at the expense of grades and jobs. The army has really turned his shit around, mainly because it has given him a shit-ton of confidence. But man it hasn't tamped down his smartassery at all -- last week he was a few minutes late to PT and had to write an essay about his fuck-up. He opened his "Treatise on Timeliness" as he called it with a Shakespeare quote and moved on to bringing in the assassination of Julius Caesar and the bombing of Hiroshima. "What if Servilius Casca hadn't shown up to the forum?" he asked. "What if the pilot of the Enola Gay got stuck in traffic on the way to work that morning?" Yeah, he knows the pilot wasn't driving anywhere that morning unless it was in a Jeep on base...He was just fucking with his NCOs, who he called "barely literate.")

Vet buddy comes from the exact background MTH describes -- shithole north Alabama -- but he is also from a long line of soldiers. His dad was a total badass Nam combat vet who pretty much hated all politicians -- he saw through all their bullshit and instilled a questioning ethic in his son.  And some officer he had looked past his smartassery and overabundance of asking "Why?" when given orders and told him he would not allow him to re-enlist unless he first went to OCS and returned as an officer, which is exactly what he did. Ended up a company commander and now is a security analyst for Congress. You might remember him from such C-Span programs as....

 

 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

2 hours ago, MidTexHorn said:

AF vet here. It’s a number of things:

1) most come from the same socio-economic demographics as other Trump supporters. These are mostly working class folks from small towns where jobs are scarce. Easy pickings for a demagogue.

2) lack of education among the enlisted. Again, same demographic as other Trump supporters - working class, no college degree, white folks. 

3) decades of brain washing that the Repubs like the military and are patriots and the Dems are filthy commies. Jane Fonda’s legacy still runs strong in the military.

4) flag waving and simplistic displays of patriotism work really well with enlisted folks and their families. Guess who is really good at playing up that angle and who isn’t. 

5) critical and analytical thinking isn’t exactly a point of emphasis in many parts of the military. Gung ho guys ready to go kill someone are inherently more susceptible to be motivated by simplistic and jingoistic speech. Guess who is more than happy to give them what they want to hear. 

Around 40% of active duty personnel are minorities, and that percentage has been growing steadily.  17% are African American.  The bigger demographic split that causes the Trump skew is male/female.  Women are about 16% of active duty personnel.  Still, I doubt African American or Latino servicemen are Trump supporters.

Its really about which servicepeople actually vote and/or show up at political events.  Historically, that's far more likely to be the rural white males you reference.  However, now you're seeing female and minority veterans not only become more vocal, but also run for office themselves.

[MidTexHorn 822]

Just wanted to say that I was responding to the OP's question with some broad generalities. Didn't mean to imply that everyone fits my examples or thinks like that, just trying to explain the ones who do and support Trump. I knew some very smart folks in the AF and I have a very smart niece who just started at the Academy, so I am well aware of good folks like @HOOK'EMHOOAH etc. who don't fit my stereotypes.

[atomheartbevo 89409]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

McRaven is easily dismissed as an officer, and a high-ranking one, at that.

McRaven catches a lot of shit, because he was trying to clean up the SEALs/Special Operations in general - he was trying to crack down on....some of the more gruesome practices of certain units, practices that served no military purpose and only pissed off the civilian population.

[atomheartbevo 89409]

This is all anecdotal, but I'll include some of my experiences - I was in the Army (under Clinton), but while in high school, I did JROTC all four years, meaning that more than a few of my high school friends ended up in the military (both officers and enlisted).  High school was a solid mix of lower- and middle-class (rich kids went to Clements, for those of you from the area) and very diverse.  When I was in the Army, I was in infantry units, and back then, they were very white, and a lot of my buddies from then were not only white, but came from lower-class backgrounds.j. Also have a lot of relatives and friends' dads that served during Vietnam.

People should think about two things when they see active-duty folks openly discussing politics:

1. You're not supposed to openly criticize people in your chain-of-command.  Even when I was in, I saw people get chewed out for trashing Clinton, and it wasn't necessarily because the person chewing them out was a Democrat, it was more about they were breaking the UCMJ.  Certain folks in the military are sticklers for that kind of thing, no matter how small the transgression.  Hell, we had one NCO who would not let anybody play Rush Limbaugh while we were on duty, even though Armed Forces Network was carrying his show (always thought that was weird).  You can bet that Trump would not allow a radio show on AFN or whatever that was that openly hostile to him.

Thanks to Facebook, twitter, etc., this shit can come back to haunt you in the future - security clearances, promotions, etc. can lead to your public/social media life being heavily scrutinized.

2. Republicans passing some huge new appropriations bill is good news for many if you're a career officer or NCO.  When I was in, they were reducing the size of the military, and a lot of career personnel were having to scramble a lot, and/or making do with shit for equipment, etc.  A boost in military spending is especially welcome if you're an officer, since you have more to work with.  

I really didn't give a shit about Clinton - I was more concerned with getting laid and getting paid, and keeping my head down and not getting stuck with shit details.  I have a feeling that hasn't changed much among the teenage/early 20s crowd who aren't deployed to a combat zone somewhere.

I know plenty who are still in (and I'm getting old - guys I was around are retiring) who don't like Trump for various reasons - morals, the Russian stuff, etc..  Quite a few are also concerned about him getting them into something stupid (which was also a fear with Hillary, and so some voted Trump).  But if you are planning a career, you're not going to rock the boat much and/or trash-talk your superiors.

I also know plenty who like Trump because they are angry about one thing or another, or they think he's good for business, so to speak (budget, etc.).

[atomheartbevo 89409]

Also, and this is true of my high school friends who went into the Air Force and became officers, but from my personal experience, AF officers can be some of the most uptight evangelical of the evangelicals.  

I don't mean that in a good way.

No offense to any Surly posters who were/are AF officers.  The fact that you are here means you don't fall into that category.

[RDCanecutter 26249]

The tone of this thread:

I'd like to address the supposed intelligence of soldiers vs the more educated civilian classes, since I've seen both up close, both as an underling, and a more elevated underling.

To compare like to like, Basic Trainees and College Freshmen (yes, at UT too) all start out as mouth-breathing fuck-ups. An 18-year-old is an 18-year-old. After a few weeks, the soldier will be able to function as a Beginner Adult. The student will be doing whatever. This is not through any superiority of the soldier as raw material, but will result from exposure to a system that demands competence and attention to detail, taught by gentlemen with wicked senses of humor. The student is "guided", most likely, by sniffy drunken grad students, who, had they the wit to be entertaining, suppress it out of whatever anxiety it is that gives us the Edgar-Allen-Poe haunted-brow grad student.

OK, next, Officer Candidates vs Grad Students. These are people with at least a Bachelor's degree, and they may have come fresh from the  last bit of training, or more likely, did whatever they were trained for for a few years., now they want to move up. My OCS class ranged from goobers to high-quality. As diverse as Berkeley admissions officer's dream. I think pretty highly of their competence because almost 2/3 of us got weeded out. And funny. Grad school, by comparison, I studied with mostly prep-school white people who were good at one thing (usually) but who acted like babies if you asked them to do something arcane like average some grades. There was ONE guy in the group that I'd trust under pressure, and he came from a German military family so, huh, maybe coincidence.

tldr: I didn't even mention Trump. I think you have all been very condescending, and you suck at recon.

[relapse98 634]

7 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

As mindboggling as Evangelical support for Trump is to my mind, I find it almost equally astounding to find out that he has any fans at all among veterans or active-duty military.

More importantly, why do you hate our troops?

[SubliminalHorn 6673]

My dad is a retired Air Force colonel and he loathes the traitor in chief. So that’s nice. 

[Guest]

Son is active duty.  Disliked Trump's candidacy and did not vote for him.  Currently doesn't care for the man, but respects the office.

 

I am prior service. Voted for Trump as opposed to any other viable candidate.  Never have liked the guy.  As a man, he's pretty much scum of the earth, but  so is/ was his opponent.  Not here to debate that, but it is most definitely my opinion.   It's not like I was fucking thrilled to vote for the Cheeto Shithead.

 

That's where we are in this country today.  I very seriously doubt I will be enthused with my vote for POTUS in my lifetime.  I generally hate politicians, but hope like hell they act and legislate in ways that will make our country stronger.  Most of the time i am left feeling that we succeed in spite of the pieces of shit in charge.

[Guest]

I love this board.

Support Trump= rube.  dumb motherfuckers

Agree with groupthink= highly enlightened elite with Socrates-like wisdom for mankind.

[hobbes2702 12799]

Maybe not highly enlightened but if you voted Trump you’re a dumb fucking rube. The fact you still support him further solidifies that fact.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Maybe not highly enlightened but if you voted Trump you’re a dumb fucking rube. The fact you still support him further solidifies that fact.

Invent facts much?

 

Ahhhh.  It's the way of the new world.  

 

it's SOOOOO "in" these days.

[RDCanecutter 26249]

26 minutes ago, slorch said:

Son is active duty.  Disliked Trump's candidacy and did not vote for him.  Currently doesn't care for the man, but respects the office.

 

I am prior service. Voted for Trump as opposed to any other viable candidate.  Never have liked the guy.  As a man, he's pretty much scum of the earth, but  so is/ was his opponent.  Not here to debate that, but it is most definitely my opinion.   It's not like I was fucking thrilled to vote for the Cheeto Shithead.

 

That's where we are in this country today.  I very seriously doubt I will be enthused with my vote for POTUS in my lifetime.  I generally hate politicians, but hope like hell they act and legislate in ways that will make our country stronger.  Most of the time i am left feeling that we succeed in spite of the pieces of shit in charge.

To address strictly military results,

I like:

1. Dead Isis

2. Dead Wagner Group

3. Going total 1870s gunboat diplomacy on that goat-fucker Erdogan over whether he will hold US citizens hostage

4. Backing Israel (sorry/notsorry, neckbeards, from a strictly military point of view, I respect Israel, and despise most Arab armies as incompetents. Arab Armies are to Armies what Christian Rock is to Rock.)

5. Fucking with China. They need to be fucked with. Viva Taiwan.

As far as not strictly military, yeah, it's a clown show.  He'll get impeached, or reelected. IDGAF, he's not what makes or breaks us.

[hobbes2702 12799]

15 minutes ago, slorch said:

Invent facts much?

 

Ahhhh.  It's the way of the new world.  

 

it's SOOOOO "in" these days.

Yea you’re never here carrying water for Trump. Never once.

[Guest]

Just now, hobbes2702 said:

Yea you’re never here carrying water for Trump. Never once.

So absolute hate is the prerequisite.

 

nice conversation, bro...

[hobbes2702 12799]

2 minutes ago, slorch said:

So absolute hate is the prerequisite.

 

nice conversation, bro...

At least have the courage of your convictions. You voted for Trump, you support him still. Might as well own it at this point. Oh wait I forgot you voted for Gary Johnson. Seems like he got a lot of votes

[TwiceHorn 31263]

7 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Nobody lived through it:

 

 

Hence the use of the term "spectre" or specter if you prefer.  Doesn't matter whether it actually happened.  It is perceived to have happened.

 

And you wouldn't think baby boomers would revise history to favor them, would you?  Nah.

Edited August 23, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[Mdhorn 5911]

8 hours ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

I'm going to be flamed for this but I believe it is education level. Look at Trumps base and there is a direct correlation of less educated being more pro Trump. Evangelicals, rural, military. All typically less educated than other groups. 

Who is the easiest segment of the population that can be fleeced?

[Mole 4320]

2 hours ago, RDCanecutter said:

tldr: I didn't even mention Trump. I think you have all been very condescending, and you suck at recon.

1

Vet here as well. I served with some pretty interesting, thoughtful people.

I think there's a lot to this condescension. There's a decades-long sense that the left is pretty antagonistic to and looks down upon a lot of the bread and butter military demographics. I think there's quite a bit of this truth to this perception, see the posting on this board in general, but it certainly has been spurred on by cynical Rs. Trump was the ultimate middle finger to that antagonism. If you take a condescending approach to a large portion of the population, don't be surprised if they don't vote for you and don't be surprised if that condescension is weaponized by political opponents.

[Mdhorn 5911]

1 hour ago, slorch said:

Son is active duty.  Disliked Trump's candidacy and did not vote for him.  Currently doesn't care for the man, but respects the office.

 

I am prior service. Voted for Trump as opposed to any other viable candidate.  Never have liked the guy.  As a man, he's pretty much scum of the earth, but  so is/ was his opponent.  Not here to debate that, but it is most definitely my opinion.   It's not like I was fucking thrilled to vote for the Cheeto Shithead.

 

That's where we are in this country today.  I very seriously doubt I will be enthused with my vote for POTUS in my lifetime.  I generally hate politicians, but hope like hell they act and legislate in ways that will make our country stronger.  Most of the time i am left feeling that we succeed in spite of the pieces of shit in charge.

Here is a clear example of propaganda working.  All the hate substantiated with 0 evidence.  Trump, lifetime of corruption, born into a corrupt family, proof a plenty and getting exposed=hero.  

The military apparatus performs best when all thinking is done by command while the main goal of college is to teach students to think for themselves.  

[TwiceHorn 31263]

Note that I didn't say "uneducated," but rather "unsophisticated."  Education isn't everything, but a certain engagement, sensitivity, and nuance, which young folks typical of the rank and file military aren't known for, even if well-educated, probably make them tend toward favoring Trump.  Not to mention the fact that they don't have 25+ years of observing his fuckery.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Mdhorn said:

Here is a clear example of propaganda working.  All the hate substantiated with 0 evidence.  Trump, lifetime of corruption, born into a corrupt family, proof a plenty and getting exposed=hero.  

The military apparatus performs best when all thinking is done by command while the main goal of college is to teach students to think for themselves.  

Propaganda in what way?  My family had a split vote.  

None of us in our our house care for Trump, the man.  The same can be said for Hilliary Clinton, for different reasons.

 

Who commanded/ demanded our allegiance/ vote?

 

So now, it's just time for taking shots at those who serve/ have served in uniform?  If so, go fuck yourself.

Edited August 23, 2018 by slorch

[Mdhorn 5911]

10 minutes ago, Mole said:

Vet here as well. I served with some pretty interesting, thoughtful people.

I think there's a lot to this condescension. There's a decades-long sense that the left is pretty antagonistic to and looks down upon a lot of the bread and butter military demographics. I think there's quite a bit of this truth to this perception, see the posting on this board in general, but it certainly has been spurred on by cynical Rs. Trump was the ultimate middle finger to that antagonism. If you take a condescending approach to a large portion of the population, don't be surprised if they don't vote for you and don't be surprised if that condescension is weaponized by political opponents.

Just don't get captured, or you're a loser in Trump's world.  How exactly is that not condescending?  How about making fun of the disabled and gold star families?  They have no regard for anybody much less military personnel.  Trump and the GOP have comments a plenty for everybody that's not rich--he constantly alludes to his wealth while they protect the wealthy.  That's a clear symbol of caste.  Where do military personnel and their families fall in that social construct?  

[Mole 4320]

Trump is absolutely not pro-military in any meaningful sense of the term, but he's nailed down the very real angst and anger and a large portion of military voters. He's done it so effectively that he gets away with almost anything. I don't really know what the answer is, but I suspect it begins with acknowledging the real problems and antagonism that these voters are facing. Hopefully, there will be a rise of Betos who take back on the role of representing their voters above all else.

There's also a certain strain of nihilism and cynicism that runs in a lot of folks I've served with that might align with Trumpism. 

[Mdhorn 5911]

10 minutes ago, slorch said:

Propaganda in what way?  My family had a split vote.  

None of us in our our house care for Trump, the man.  The same can be said for Hilliary Clinton, for different reasons.

 

Who commanded/ demanded our allegiance/ vote?

 

So now, it's just time for taking shots at those who serve/ have served in uniform?  If so, go fuck yourself.

Trump the man is president.  It's how he ran and won.  Watching him belittle and degrade his Republican opposition can only appeal to a certain group mindset.  When Trump didn't divest himself from his holdings and refused to show his taxes, a red light should have flashed for anybody thinking for themselves. Projected criminal intent is vastly different from actual criminal activity.  

I've got a golden parachute, a home that is insulated in a DC real estate market, property in Texas, and completely debt free but the thing I value most is the ability to think for myself.  Otherwise,  you're fucked.  

[Mdhorn 5911]

19 minutes ago, Mole said:

Trump is absolutely not pro-military in any meaningful sense of the term, but he's nailed down the very real angst and anger and a large portion of military voters. He's done it so effectively that he gets away with almost anything. I don't really know what the answer is, but I suspect it begins with acknowledging the real problems and antagonism that these voters are facing. Hopefully, there will be a rise of Betos who take back on the role of representing their voters above all else.

There's also a certain strain of nihilism and cynicism that runs in a lot of folks I've served with that might align with Trumpism. 

Obama expressed a great deal of empathy and respect for everybody, including military.  It didn't move the needle for opposition; in fact, they fabricated angst against him.  Several great things Beto has going for him is he's articulate, smart and white.  The Democrats should ride this as far as they can.  He's certainly getting far better name recognition than Tim Kaine, which was a huge, DC insider error.    

The great thing about the military is unless you go in as an officer, everybody begins at the same level, is treated consistently and given clear structure.  I wouldn't be against mandatory military enrollment at a certain age.  It would certainly help politicians understand and evaluate policy better if they had skin in the game.  

Edited August 23, 2018 by Mdhorn

[hobbes2702 12799]

1 hour ago, Tony Soprano said:

Why wouldn't he own it? There was no other option.

Lulz. Ask the Gary Johnson voters

[FartingMonk 3606]

First of all.  Fuck you condescending fuckheads especially you coordinator.  Yeah, your son is so fucking bright that he wrote a treatise and his slackjawed NCOs didn't know a thing.  Sgt Cletus probably is still wondering who this Bill Shakespeare fella is.   Get the fuck out of here.  I can walk and chew gum at the same time too. 

But to get onto the real business.  It has nothing to do with Vietnam or the treatment of the Vets coming home from that horrible war.  I think most of the Trump supporters aren't Trump supporters.  They were just never Hillary people, but a lot of the animosity stems from Obama.  I didn't hate President Obama, I actually voted for him, but damn did his social policies with the military just destroy morale.  I'm not even talking about his LGBT policies.  No one in the rank and file actually cared about that, gays have and will always serve in the military.  It was the inclusion of women in combat roles that ruffled some feathers, but that was also mostly dealt with not too much bitching.  The morale destroyer was after President Obama gave his war on sexual assault in the military.  The push back was fucking terrible.  We were having to train every other week on sexual assault.  We got told to look around in the room and said 1 in 3 of you are rapists.  Malingerers who didn't want to do their job claimed sexual harassment and the leadership immediately sacked their superiors.  Careers got ruined by false accusations, but because directive from upon high was to convict.  Convict they did.  

 

So it's not that the majority of the military or vets support Trump, it's the pendulum swung a little too far to the fucking left with Obama and they wanted to shift back a little to the right, but I'm afraid.  It's shifted way too far right.  

[FartingMonk 3606]

5 hours ago, Mdhorn said:

Here is a clear example of propaganda working.  All the hate substantiated with 0 evidence.  Trump, lifetime of corruption, born into a corrupt family, proof a plenty and getting exposed=hero.  

The military apparatus performs best when all thinking is done by command while the main goal of college is to teach students to think for themselves.  

Oh yeah and you sir.  Politely go fuck yourself.