California is about to end the cash bail system

[Gil Bang 26028]

I hope that this goes through.  Cash bail is horribly  unfair.

 

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-ca-bail-reform-assembly-20180820-story.html

[RDCanecutter 26474]

Bunch o pawn shops fixin to fold.

[TwiceHorn 31538]

Bail is a strange creature.  It was originally intended simply to insure appearance for trial.  Then some genius judge decided that it was for public protection, too (let's throw this sumbitch in jail pending trial cuz he's dangerous, we have probable cause, yknow).

 

It has completely lost its moorings, like most things criminal justice.  People don't even know what its moorings are, or were.

[DanRydell 799]

Quote

The Eighth Amendment addresses pretrial release by providing merely that "[e]xcessive bail shall not be required." This Clause, of course, says nothing about whether bail shall be available at all.

I challenge anyone to find a more dumbass argument in a SCOTUS decision than this Reghnquist gem from US v. Salerno, absurdly holding that denial of bail entirely doesn't violate the Eighth Amendment.

Edited August 23, 2018 by DanRydell

[MadBurgerMaker 404]

Seems like a good thing to me. 

I do kind of wonder though: if this is used as a source of revenue or whatever for cities/counties (is it?), are the local cops just going to be extra dick-like about making up for the loss via tickets and such?

[TwiceHorn 31538]

1 hour ago, MadBurgerMaker said:

Seems like a good thing to me. 

I do kind of wonder though: if this is used as a source of revenue or whatever for cities/counties (is it?), are the local cops just going to be extra dick-like about making up for the loss via tickets and such?

I'm not sure bail is actually a profit center or revenue generator.  It certainly is for bail bond companies.  I have little idea how often bail money is actually forfeited.  Not often, I suspect.  Plus, if it's easier to avoid pretrial detention, there's less need for pretrial detention, and that's expensive.

And if people aren't blowing money on bail bonds, they're probably more likely to pay their fines in something resembling a timely fashion.

Edited August 23, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[tx 3 putt 77444]

Houston Harris County wants to do the same. 

[RPM 26355]

6 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I have little idea how often bail money is actually forfeited.  Not often, I suspect.  Plus, if it's easier to avoid pretrial detention, there's less need for pretrial detention, and that's expensive.

The forfeits are covered by insurance. You cover them or lose your bond. That's where you have to be smart in who you bail out. They have to post 10% of the bond + fees to you. That is non-refundable. The Agent files with the clerk. The guy walks, but they're on your leash.

Used to know a gal that ran a bail bond joint in Montague County. Did pretty well until the new Sheriff came in and brought his preferred friends. She was out of business in 6 months.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13523]

Big push from both side of the aisle to reform, if not end, the cash bail system.   Even the Koch brothers are in on this one.    I would have to think the main drive to keep cash bail are the jail vendors.   If the accused are let out of jail quickly, there isn't a big need for bad jail food.

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Is this for non violent acts only ?

[Bernard 879]

The decision to keep a person in custody should never be based on personal finances. The whole cash bail system is perverse. The time it takes to get to trial after being charged is also absurd.

Bernard

[pops 7006]

Chico is fucked. 

[TwiceHorn 31538]

4 hours ago, RPM said:

The forfeits are covered by insurance. You cover them or lose your bond. That's where you have to be smart in who you bail out. They have to post 10% of the bond + fees to you. That is non-refundable. The Agent files with the clerk. The guy walks, but they're on your leash.

Used to know a gal that ran a bail bond joint in Montague County. Did pretty well until the new Sheriff came in and brought his preferred friends. She was out of business in 6 months.

What I mean is, in the bail system, the only time the government gets money is when the bail is forfeited by non-appearance.

 

The cash bail system shouldn't be confused with court costs and probation/community supervision fees, which are something of a cash cow for the government, and a real strain on low-income defendants.

[TwiceHorn 31538]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Is this for non violent acts only ?

That really has little to do with it.  This system would substitute something other than simply the ability to post money or property as the sole criteria for avoiding pretrial detention.  Like measures actually calculated to secure the defendant's appearance at trial or to actually protect the public (I'm rather skeptical of the last as a legitimate function of pretrial detention).

Presumably, the violent nature of the crime/defendant would make it more difficult to secure "bail," than otherwise.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

17 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

That really has little to do with it.  This system would substitute something other than simply the ability to post money or property as the sole criteria for avoiding pretrial detention.  Like measures actually calculated to secure the defendant's appearance at trial or to actually protect the public (I'm rather skeptical of the last as a legitimate function of pretrial detention).

Presumably, the violent nature of the crime/defendant would make it more difficult to secure "bail," than otherwise.

I think people who have committed violent crimes are more likely to be a flight risk so something is needed to ensure they don't skip out. I don;t care what that mechanism is, but it needs to work well.

[El Diablo 4232]

Dog, the bounty hunter, is going to HATE this.

[ImissWallyPryor 9046]

But you won't believe what his wife looks like now!

[RayDog 682]

They seriously need to drop bail and offender funded probation. 

I had an alcoholic girlfriend who was constantly being fucked by the system. Both of these destroy people's lives and make it tough to get back to a normal life. 

It is also extremely racist when you look at who gets the worse end of it.

[PilotsError 2321]

Not sure of all the details but the ACLU went from supporting the bill to completely opposing it.  Sounds like they're saying the new way would be rife for abuse my judges and prosecutors.  

[Bernard 879]

On 8/23/2018 at 9:05 AM, Onboard 2.0 said:

I think people who have committed violent crimes are more likely to be a flight risk so something is needed to ensure they don't skip out. I don;t care what that mechanism is, but it needs to work well.

No one is saying the judge can't deny bail to certain defendants if they are deemed a flight risk or a danger to society. The whole point of the argument is that right now the deciding factor on release or no-release is whether or not Johnny Defendant can come up with X amount of money to secure his freedom.

Bernard 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, Bernard said:

No one is saying the judge can't deny bail to certain defendants if they are deemed a flight risk or a danger to society. The whole point of the argument is that right now the deciding factor on release or no-release is whether or not Johnny Defendant can come up with X amount of money to secure his freedom.

Bernard 

I'm on board for a revamped bail system that really responds to "innocent till proven guilty". I just wondered where the cut off point would be.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

On 8/23/2018 at 8:36 AM, pops said:

Chico is fucked. 

Who's going to sponsor Bad News Bears 2019?

[Bernard 879]

24 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'm on board for a revamped bail system that really responds to "innocent till proven guilty". I just wondered where the cut off point would be.

The cutoff doesn't even have to change from the current system. Right now the judge decides that plenty of defendants are safe enough to roam the streets as long as the (or their friends/family) have some spare cash, collateral or credit to secure release. Those with the cash go free. Those without the cash stay locked up. Just take cash out of the equation. The judge decides based on the available circumstances if the person will be released before trial. 

Bernard

[Brothahorn 10087]

6 hours ago, RayDog said:

They seriously need to drop bail and offender funded probation. 

I had an alcoholic girlfriend who was constantly being fucked by the system. Both of these destroy people's lives and make it tough to get back to a normal life. 

It is also extremely racist when you look at who gets the worse end of it.

I agree. Doing 5 years in jail then being released with no conditions, is soo much better than 5 years on the street. Being able to work and live a decent life while paying your debt to society is overrated.

And then the whole just grabbing innocent minorities and forcing them onto probation is crime against humanity!

[DanRydell 799]

8 hours ago, Bernard said:

No one is saying the judge can't deny bail to certain defendants if they are deemed a flight risk or a danger to society.

I'm saying that. I don't necessarily have a problem with it on pure policy grounds but it's plainly prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments. 

[Bernard 879]

49 minutes ago, DanRydell said:

I'm saying that. I don't necessarily have a problem with it on pure policy grounds but it's plainly prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments. 

I'm sort of with you principle, but I'm also OK with keeping the Jeffery Dahmer, Ted Kaczinski, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy types behind bars from the get go. Those guys are the exceptions though. We need for Joe Six Pack Lawbreaker. It's silly how long some people stay in jail awaiting trial simply because they lack the funds to get sprung. It's not good for anyone, expect those making the profits.

Bernard

[El Diablo 4232]

600K, guess this cop rammer ain't getting out anytime soon. Prolly a flight risk.

http://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Man-shot-by-local-officer-rammed-patrol-unit-after-harrowing-chase-492536141.html

[Bernard 879]

From the link above...

“Officer Hydorn discharges his duty weapon at the suspect, then the suspect attempts to reverse his vehicle. Officer Hydorn discharges his duty weapon again in an attempt to stop the suspect.”

Did they just admit that Officer Hydorn shot this guy not because he was in fear for his life, but simply because he wanted to "stop the suspect" from fleeing? No wonder they gave this guy huge bail. Can't have him participating in his own defense. 

Bernard

[DanRydell 799]

From the link above...
“Officer Hydorn discharges his duty weapon at the suspect, then the suspect attempts to reverse his vehicle. Officer Hydorn discharges his duty weapon again in an attempt to stop the suspect.”
Did they just admit that Officer Hydorn shot this guy not because he was in fear for his life, but simply because he wanted to "stop the suspect" from fleeing? No wonder they gave this guy huge bail. Can't have him participating in his own defense. 
Bernard

You skipped over the preceding paragraph stating the vehicle drove his car into the cop car before he fired:

The suspect vehicle then accelerates towards the police vehicle, striking Hatfield and Hydorn’s vehicle head-on,” the affidavit says.

Although based on the descriptions of how recklessly the suspect was driving before then, the officer probably would have been justified in using deadly force to make the stop to prevent the suspect from causing death or serious bodily injury to others if not stopped.

[El Diablo 4232]

So is the guy a flight risk? 600K seems a bit steep, no? 10%? 15%? Just to be able to walk the streets until trial or whatever? 

[clapclapclap 9000]

Anti-bail activist group bails out man charged with domestic abuse, he then kills his wife a few hours later:

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/he-was-bailed-out-on-thursday-st-louis-prosecutors-said/article_17cb7e78-5b81-5c4d-99e6-3d927ef94fd3.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

Edited April 16, 2019 by clapclapclap

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

On 8/24/2018 at 7:37 PM, DanRydell said:

it's plainly prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments. 

well, how hard can that be to change

[Lhorn 4966]

Guess they chose the wrong martyr to champion. 

[Texas_Rocks 347]

So the CA bail bond industry is too broke or cheap to cover their asses with special interest payouts?