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John McCain Passes Away at 81

Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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Mojo Hand

Mojo Hand 4580

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27 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

There is no denying that John McCain spent his life in dedicated service to his country and was a proud American.  Like most of us, he was a complex human being.  He brought a lot of important things to our overall national discourse and was one of the major political figures of our time. His voting record and actions as a United States Senator did not always back up his words, but he's not unique in that regard.  

I will say, his decision to not resign his seat once it became clear he was not going to return to Waashington, DC to due his duty and deny the citizens of Arizona a choice in who is their elected representative cannot be overlooked and does stain his legacy.  It was deeply undemocratic.

My interactions with him were always warm, thoughtful, and very productive. My thoughts go out to his family.

More likely it will be a positive aspect of his legacy.  Definitely not a stain.   Our system is deeply undemocratic.   That's why the guy with 3 million fewer votes is president.   Our system is actually based, for better or worse, on the notion that wise statesmen will make  decisions for the good of the people and act as a buffer between popular whim and policy.   The people have a voice through elections, but can only change course slowly at regular intervals. (Not to mention that direct popular election of Senators was not part of the original design).  McCain's decision, in the context of the times, will be remembered as a great act.  

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Bateshorn

Bateshorn 9927

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Are you serious Clark?

Ducey will appoint a seat keeper through November 2020, then a special will be called for the last 2 years of McCain's term. That's horrible.  An unelected person will be making decisions for a full two years.  And it's a barely kept secret that McCain was lobbying actively for his wife to be the appointee so she can run in 2020 and keep the seat in the family.

Might as well just go back to inherited royalty under your flawed logic.  It is a deeply, deeply undemocratic action.

Edited by Bateshorn
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Mojo Hand

Mojo Hand 4580

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1 minute ago, Bateshorn said:

Are you serious Clark?

Ducey will appoint a seat keeper through November 2020, then a special will be called for the last 2 years of McCain's term. That's horrible.  An unelected person will be making decisions for a full two years.  And it's a barely kept secret that McCain was lobbying actively for his wife to be the appointee so she can run in 2020 and keep the seat in the family.

Might as well just go back to inherited royalty under your flawed logic.  It is a deeply, deeply undemocratic action.

Of course I'm serious.  What in my post sounded facetious to you?   And I'm not disputing that it's undemocratic.   I'm disputing that this undemocratic action will stain his legacy.  His oath of office was to defend the Constitution and country, and he seems to have made his decision on that basis to deny an extra pro-Trump Senate vote for as long as he could.   In these times, with a traitorous president who was not even the democratic choice, that was the right move.   Nothing about that logic suggests we should go back to inherited royalty; that's just absurd.  The voters will get their say in 2020.

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Bateshorn

Bateshorn 9927

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4 minutes ago, NowThis said:

suppose he resigned 2 months ago, what difference would it make? Wouldn't the governor appoint someone until the special election regardless?

If he had resigned by May 30, their would have been a special for his seat in November.  He knew what he was doing. Additionally, he left DC permanently in December.   It was widely reported in April that his colleagues began trekking out to Arizona in April to say good bye.

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Bateshorn

Bateshorn 9927

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1 minute ago, Mojo Hand said:

Of course I'm serious.  What in my post sounded facetious to you?   And I'm not disputing that it's undemocratic.   I'm disputing that this undemocratic action will stain his legacy.  His oath of office was to defend the Constitution and country, and he seems to have made his decision on that basis to deny an extra pro-Trump Senate vote for as long as he could.   In these times, with a traitorous president who was not even the democratic choice, that was the right move.   Nothing about that logic suggests we should go back to inherited royalty; that's just absurd.  The voters will get their say in 2020.

You realize that if Ducey doesn't appoint Cindy McCain or John Kyl, he will likely appoint a pro-Trump person.  He could appoint Kelli Ward or Joe Arpaio if he wants.  And he might.

I got no love for Trump, but the people of Arizona should have a voice in who their elected representatives are.

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

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“According to McCain aides, the crucial moment came in the planning for the 2008 convention. I was told that Manafort lobbied desperately to become manager of the Republican National Convention, to take on the role of orchestrating the show. This was the sort of job that he held several times before. It represented the sort of behind-the-scenes power that he sought his entire career.  Because of his relationship with Davis, and because of his resume, he thought of the job as something close to his birthright. But McCain didn’t want any further association with Manafort, so he denied him the job, a rejection that sent Manafort into a fit of rage and depression. All the evidence for rejecting Paul Manafort as a man of dubious character was amply available in 2008—and McCain acted upon it.”

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NowThis

NowThis 931

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5 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

You realize that if Ducey doesn't appoint Cindy McCain or John Kyl, he will likely appoint a pro-Trump person.  He could appoint Kelli Ward or Joe Arpaio if he wants.  And he might.

I got no love for Trump, but the people of Arizona should have a voice in who their elected representatives are.

good point, the fill-in person could be very pro Trump anyway, so McCain's strategy may not have value. 

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Mojo Hand

Mojo Hand 4580

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9 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

You realize that if Ducey doesn't appoint Cindy McCain or John Kyl, he will likely appoint a pro-Trump person.  He could appoint Kelli Ward or Joe Arpaio if he wants.  And he might.

I got no love for Trump, but the people of Arizona should have a voice in who their elected representatives are.

Ducey was always going to do that.   The point is that he is doing so next week instead of five months ago.   That's five months of an effective "no" vote for the Trump agenda in the Senate.    And the people of Arizona got their voice.   That voice was John McCain, and it was his wise judgment to do what he did for the country.  They got exactly what they voted for. 

Again, our system of government is deeply undemocratic.   One of the downsides is that we get Trump as president when his opponent got three million more votes.  One of the positives is that it takes awhile for things to change because legacy representatives can hold out against bad popular will until the next election.   That's precisely what McCain did, as long as he could, with the judgment that Arizona voters elected him to exercise on their behalf.  I don't accept that it's a stain to exercise the good aspects of our undemocratic system in order to oppose the bad aspects of it.   He did the right thing, and he'll be remembered fondly for it. 

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Js1

Js1 85301

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8 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

You realize that if Ducey doesn't appoint Cindy McCain or John Kyl, he will likely appoint a pro-Trump person.  He could appoint Kelli Ward or Joe Arpaio if he wants.  And he might.

I got no love for Trump, but the people of Arizona should have a voice in who their elected representatives are.

I read he's really stuck in a shitty spot trying to appoint someone that pleases both the crazy crowd and the McCain family.

Cindy is probably too moderate and wouldn't be a reliable vote.  Though there's a lot of precedent for just appointing the wife for the rest of the term.  Though I've heard a lot of scuttle he held off resigning before the May 30th date because Ducey assured him it will be Cindy.

He said he's not appointing anyone who lobbied for the seat (Ward and Gosar are out then) before McCain's death.

Edited by Js1
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lemonlime

lemonlime 5503

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14 minutes ago, Js1 said:

I read he's really stuck in a shitty spot trying to appoint someone that pleases both the crazy crowd and the McCain family.

Cindy is probably too moderate and wouldn't be a reliable vote.  Though there's a lot of precedent for just appointing the wife for the rest of the term.  Though I've heard a lot of scuttle he held off resigning before the May 30th date because Ducey assured him it will be Cindy.

He said he's not appointing anyone who lobbied for the seat (Ward and Gosar are out then) before McCain's death.

Like the Trump GOP gives a fuck about precedent or promises.

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Js1

Js1 85301

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1 minute ago, lemonlime said:

Like the Trump GOP gives a fuck about precedent or promises.

Just remember, Ducey is up for re-election in November with a competitive Senate election hanging over the state.   He can't fuck this up.

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Bateshorn

Bateshorn 9927

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Posted (edited)

If he doesn't appoint Cindy McCain, he'll probably appoint John Kyl as a care taker, who will become an anodyne vote who will do whatever McConnell tells him.

Ducey manages to avoid being accused of appointing a moderate or a crazy while ensuring the GOP has the 51st vote they need on judicial nominations.

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lemonlime

lemonlime 5503

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2 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Just remember, Ducey is up for re-election in November with a competitive Senate election hanging over the state.   He can't fuck this up.

I hope you're right.  And I don't know much about Ducey.  But he's got to be relying on the Trumpkin vote from patriots who like military personnel who weren't captured.  Cult 45 won't be happy with him appointing Cindy McCain.

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Mojo Hand

Mojo Hand 4580

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1 hour ago, bernorange said:

McCain's foreign policy (rabid advocation for war around the globe) was very polarizing.  I've been a vocal critic of his domestic politics for many, many years (anyone remember the McCain/Leiberman hates the Constitution thread on the old site?).  There is a lot of fodder out there about his personal life and military record for those who care to dig that doesn't speak well for his character.

There is an adage that says, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.  I wasn't going to post in this thread.  Some of the hero worship that's being expressed in this thread and in the media is way over the top IMO.

McCain was passionate about his politics.  He fought hard for what he believed in.  That's about the nicest thing I am going to say about him.

He was a flawed man personally and professionally, but, then, he's being remembered as a hero, not a saint.  He knew he was flawed and tried hard to be better, and often succeeded, and that's as much as I can ask of anyone in life or public office.   He was a war hero, with acts of heroism that I hardly need to restate, which is far more than I could ask of anyone.  Other failings he also had don't detract from that, and in some ways make it all the more impressive.  He devoted his life to honorable public service, and I never doubted his desire to do the best he could for our country, even when I strongly disagreed that his policies were best for our country, which was much of the time. I'm glad he wasn't elected president in 2008, but I'm also glad he was in the Senate and lived the life he did. 

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13509

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Ducey has said that he won't appoint himself but that doesn't mean that he won't want to run for the office in 2020 during the special election.  If so, he will appoint someone now that is most likely not going to run in 2020.  This is where Cindy McCain or Kyl look to be good options.   

Ducey will be term limited out of the governor's role in 2022, assuming he wins this November.   Transitioning to a Senator, without term limits, at age 56 would seem to be a logic step for Ducey.   

The one downside of that special election will be that the winner is only Senator for 2 years when the seat will come up again at its natural election cycle in 2022.  

 

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EMAWesome

EMAWesome 101

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John Lewis in 2008

"What I am seeing reminds me too much of another destructive period in American history. Sen. McCain and Gov. Palin are sowing the seeds of hatred and division, and there is no need for this hostility in our political discourse," Lewis said in a statement.

"During another period, in the not too distant past, there was a governor of the state of Alabama named George Wallace who also became a presidential candidate. George Wallace never threw a bomb. He never fired a gun, but he created the climate and the conditions that encouraged vicious attacks against innocent Americans who were simply trying to exercise their constitutional rights. Because of this atmosphere of hate, four little girls were killed on Sunday morning when a church was bombed in Birmingham, Alabama," wrote the Democrat.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/12/mccain.lewis/

 

John Lewis in 2018.

“We have lost a great warrior who defended this nation’s honor in times of war and peace.  He risked his life for America as a soldier, guarded our integrity as a prisoner of war, and dedicated his entire life to public service.  Only a few will ever be remembered for standing on the courage of their convictions.

“Sen. John McCain was one of those rare people who was never afraid to do what he believed was right.  Our nation is forever indebted to men and women of  conscience who struggle—in their own way, according to the dictates of their own hearts—to act on the ideals of democracy and work to build a more perfect union.  I send my deepest condolences to his family.  They are in my thoughts and prayers.”

https://johnlewis.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/rep-john-lewis-statement-passing-sen-john-mccain

 

 

Now, which one of these comments from Lewis am I supposed to call bullshit on?  Because one of them is bullshit.  Is McCain a great warrior who defended this nation's honor or is he George Wallace?  I will probably get a chance to ask McCain about this before I get a reply from Lewis.

 

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EMAWesome

EMAWesome 101

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12 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Maybe try nuance and see both are accurate portrayals? 

That is impossible based on the quotes.  You can not defend the nation's honor and at the same time be supposedly trying to create an atmosphere that results in people being blown up by bombs while they are attending church.   How can you defend a person as someone  "who was never afraid to do what he believed was right"  if apparently (at least in Lewis' opinion) one of those things was trying to create an atmosphere that would allow for innocent people to be blown up while they are at church?  "One of the quotes must be bullshit.  There is absolutely no way to argue C.  All of the above in this instance.  I was not a huge supporter of McCain after the mid to late 1990s but I hope McCain left a request to be turned face down in his casket when Lewis walks up to it so Lewis can kiss his ass.

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ndawg

ndawg 1242

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2 hours ago, EMAWesome said:

That is impossible based on the quotes.  You can not defend the nation's honor and at the same time be supposedly trying to create an atmosphere that results in people being blown up by bombs while they are attending church.   How can you defend a person as someone  "who was never afraid to do what he believed was right"  if apparently (at least in Lewis' opinion) one of those things was trying to create an atmosphere that would allow for innocent people to be blown up while they are at church?  "One of the quotes must be bullshit.  There is absolutely no way to argue C.  All of the above in this instance.  I was not a huge supporter of McCain after the mid to late 1990s but I hope McCain left a request to be turned face down in his casket when Lewis walks up to it so Lewis can kiss his ass.

The answer is in this sentence you quoted from 2008: "What I am seeing reminds me too much of another destructive period in American history"

The McCain/Palin ticket reminded him of the civil rights movement. Reminded him. He drew a comparison. He did not equate them.

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Mojo Hand

Mojo Hand 4580

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I likewise thought less of McCain as a Senator in 2008 than I do in 2018.   Opinions can change over time with greater context.  And McCain has done ten years of additional things since then that affect the assessment.  There's nothing unusual or illogical about that.  

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burntorangebongos

burntorangebongos 10710

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3 hours ago, EMAWesome said:

That is impossible based on the quotes.  You can not defend the nation's honor and at the same time be supposedly trying to create an atmosphere that results in people being blown up by bombs while they are attending church.   How can you defend a person as someone  "who was never afraid to do what he believed was right"  if apparently (at least in Lewis' opinion) one of those things was trying to create an atmosphere that would allow for innocent people to be blown up while they are at church?  "One of the quotes must be bullshit.  There is absolutely no way to argue C.  All of the above in this instance.  I was not a huge supporter of McCain after the mid to late 1990s but I hope McCain left a request to be turned face down in his casket when Lewis walks up to it so Lewis can kiss his ass.

You ain't but dumb.  Complex men are complex and they can most definitely be 2 or 3 things almost opposite things at once...Especially when they are politicians since they talk on all sides of their mouth. Look at LBJ and tell me that isn't so. That racist SOB did more for the black community than JFK would have ever done. That is fact. The same sort of paradox is true about McCain. He had conflict within himself that was bigger than most of us will ever face against other people. He was a hero with clay feet. Amazing what he was able to do despite that fact. John Lewis has the intelligence to understand this and praise him for what he was to this country. Keep up with John Lewis, waterhead, or keep his name out of your ignorant mouth.

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GRHorn

GRHorn 105

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On 8/27/2018 at 5:09 PM, tantric superman said:

I believe both.

McCain picking Palin was the most moronic thing he ever did, and that cunt is the reason we have Trump, and his cunty defenders.

Doesn't take anything away from his bravery, or the idea that he was a good guy who just had a monumental fuck up.

 

Dumb take.  The two biggest reasons we have Trump are 1) Iraq war 2) bank bailouts. 

Palin meant almost nothing. 

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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13 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Dumb take.  The two biggest reasons we have Trump are 1) Iraq war 2) bank bailouts. 

Palin meant almost nothing. 

Dumb take. The two biggest reasons we have Trump are 1) the dems being dumb enough to nominate Hillary 2) Russian active measures.

I agree Pailin meant almost nothing. 

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SizzleChest

SizzleChest 8283

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On 8/27/2018 at 8:53 AM, Bateshorn said:

I will say, his decision to not resign his seat once it became clear he was not going to return to Waashington, DC to due his duty and deny the citizens of Arizona a choice in who is their elected representative cannot be overlooked and does stain his legacy.  It was deeply undemocratic.

My interactions with him were always warm, thoughtful, and very productive. My thoughts go out to his family.

 

On 8/27/2018 at 9:05 AM, NowThis said:
WHITE HOUSE FLAG NOT LOWERED: The White House flag is no longer at half-staff in honor of the late Sen. John McCain. The flag was lowered for less than 48 hours, a break from precedent that it is lowered until burial,

This is why.

You can argue about who started it and all that shit, but in the final analysis, McCain was about the country.  Trump is about Trump.

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Macanudo

Macanudo 12976

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On 8/27/2018 at 9:50 AM, Bateshorn said:

Are you serious Clark?

Ducey will appoint a seat keeper through November 2020, then a special will be called for the last 2 years of McCain's term. That's horrible.  An unelected person will be making decisions for a full two years.  And it's a barely kept secret that McCain was lobbying actively for his wife to be the appointee so she can run in 2020 and keep the seat in the family.

Might as well just go back to inherited royalty under your flawed logic.  It is a deeply, deeply undemocratic action.

A Dingell has held a House seat from OH for over 80 years.   Where's your outrage at that?  

John Dingell, Sr held the seat from 1933-1955 (22 years)

John Dingell, Jr held it from 1955-2015 (60 fucking years!)

Dingell Jr's wife has held it from 2015 to present.   

WTF?   A  family has controlled a House seat for 85 freaking years.   And you're upset that John McCain didn't step down a few years ago?

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DanRydell

DanRydell 799

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Posted
A Dingell has held a House seat from OH for over 80 years.   Where's your outrage at that?  
John Dingell, Sr held the seat from 1933-1955 (22 years)
John Dingell, Jr held it from 1955-2015 (60 fucking years!)
Dingell Jr's wife has held it from 2015 to present.   
WTF?   A  family has controlled a House seat for 85 freaking years.   And you're upset that John McCain didn't step down a few years ago?


They were each elected. What’s undemocratic about that?
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Texas73

Texas73 420

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The bank bailouts are not the reason we have Trump. The low intelligent whites don't give a shit about that. Trump conned them into believing he is a great businessman and he is a non-politician and Americans are sick of politicians. 

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