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John McCain Passes Away at 81

Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 89409

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So doing a lot of reading around, and talking to family members, and a couple of things struck me:

I'm surprised so many people knew that because of his torture/injuries, he couldn't do things like tie his shoes or comb his hair, or use a computer keyboard for any length of time.  I knew it from a POW I heard give a talk back in the early 90s, but I just assumed that many didn't.

Also, a lot of vets, Vietnam and otherwise, including quite a few Trump supporters, are really pissed at Trump over the flag thing.  More than I expected.  The most hardcore Trump supporter in my family made it clear he was furious with Trump. Of course, the guy is a Vietnam vet, and is very proud of having served there and having been wounded, and so I think he took it very personally.

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GRHorn

GRHorn 105

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19 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

Dumb take. The two biggest reasons we have Trump are 1) the dems being dumb enough to nominate Hillary 2) Russian active measures.

I agree Pailin meant almost nothing. 

Lol at #2.

18 hours ago, Mojo Hand said:

This is absurd. 

This is my thinking. Trump was direct rebuke to the political establishment first and foremost. What two events have hurt the political establishment’s credibility the most in the last few decades? Those two, easily imo. 

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Mojo Hand

Mojo Hand 4580

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Posted
5 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Lol at #2.

This is my thinking. Trump was direct rebuke to the political establishment first and foremost. What two events have hurt the political establishment’s credibility the most in the last few decades? Those two, easily imo. 

With that tenuous of a causal link, you might as well blame Watergate for eroding our trust in government.  Bush's war in Iraq made voters distrust government, so that led to the election of another Republican who supported the Iraq war at the time?   And the bailouts too, even though he maintains 90% Republican approval and a cult-like following despite only weakening regulation of banks and Wall Street?   C'mon.   I could maybe buy that those things played a small role along the way, but they aren't even remotely close to the top reasons Trump was elected. 

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Nivek

Nivek 16852

Posted
Posted
So doing a lot of reading around, and talking to family members, and a couple of things struck me:
I'm surprised so many people knew that because of his torture/injuries, he couldn't do things like tie his shoes or comb his hair, or use a computer keyboard for any length of time.  I knew it from a POW I heard give a talk back in the early 90s, but I just assumed that many didn't.
Also, a lot of vets, Vietnam and otherwise, including quite a few Trump supporters, are really pissed at Trump over the flag thing.  More than I expected.  The most hardcore Trump supporter in my family made it clear he was furious with Trump. Of course, the guy is a Vietnam vet, and is very proud of having served there and having been wounded, and so I think he took it very personally.

So how will the furious vote?
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GRHorn

GRHorn 105

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Posted
1 hour ago, Mojo Hand said:

With that tenuous of a causal link, you might as well blame Watergate for eroding our trust in government.  Bush's war in Iraq made voters distrust government, so that led to the election of another Republican who supported the Iraq war at the time?   And the bailouts too, even though he maintains 90% Republican approval and a cult-like following despite only weakening regulation of banks and Wall Street?   C'mon.   I could maybe buy that those things played a small role along the way, but they aren't even remotely close to the top reasons Trump was elected. 

I think you underestimate the importance of the financial crisis and bailouts. That was when it was cemented that the laws don’t apply to everyone. Some people are above the law no matter what they do. They also contributed to worsening inequality. Those are a couple of catalysts for populism right there that ended up contributing to Trump and Bernie. 

As for Iraq, foreign policy disaster, supported by establishment in both parties, under false justification, wasting vast amounts of money and lives. 

I feel like this has been rehashed a lot here, so I’ll leave it at that. 

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, GRHorn said:

Lol at #2.

This is my thinking. Trump was direct rebuke to the political establishment first and foremost. What two events have hurt the political establishment’s credibility the most in the last few decades? Those two, easily imo. 

lol at your lol

keep on trollin’

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Mojo Hand said:

With that tenuous of a causal link, you might as well blame Watergate for eroding our trust in government.  Bush's war in Iraq made voters distrust government, so that led to the election of another Republican who supported the Iraq war at the time?   And the bailouts too, even though he maintains 90% Republican approval and a cult-like following despite only weakening regulation of banks and Wall Street?   C'mon.   I could maybe buy that those things played a small role along the way, but they aren't even remotely close to the top reasons Trump was elected. 

He’s a troll. Substantive discussion is worthless. Just troll him back and point out to others the idiocy of talking to this guy. 

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Mojo Hand

Mojo Hand 4580

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27 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

I think you underestimate the importance of the financial crisis and bailouts. That was when it was cemented that the laws don’t apply to everyone. Some people are above the law no matter what they do. They also contributed to worsening inequality. Those are a couple of catalysts for populism right there that ended up contributing to Trump and Bernie. 

As for Iraq, foreign policy disaster, supported by establishment in both parties, under false justification, wasting vast amounts of money and lives. 

I feel like this has been rehashed a lot here, so I’ll leave it at that. 

I don't underestimate the importance of the financial crisis at all.  I think it was a critical part of the racist economic and social anxiety that is actually one of the big reasons Trump is president.   The bailouts simply fall into the same category as deficits, in that they were just an excuse for complaint that had no actual connection to voting decisions. And the Iraq War had little to do with it.   In 2008, sure, which is part of why Obama won the primary and general.   I don't see how it was remotely a factor in electing a pro-Iraq War candidate in 2016.   If it was, Republican primary voters would have given some traction to a candidate like Rand Paul. 

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GRHorn

GRHorn 105

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36 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

I don't underestimate the importance of the financial crisis at all.  I think it was a critical part of the racist economic and social anxiety that is actually one of the big reasons Trump is president.   The bailouts simply fall into the same category as deficits, in that they were just an excuse for complaint that had no actual connection to voting decisions. And the Iraq War had little to do with it.   In 2008, sure, which is part of why Obama won the primary and general.   I don't see how it was remotely a factor in electing a pro-Iraq War candidate in 2016.   If it was, Republican primary voters would have given some traction to a candidate like Rand Paul. 

Trump ran on a distinctly less interventionist platform than anyone on R side, outside of Paul.  He also contrasted Hillary in that respect. 

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Mojo Hand

Mojo Hand 4580

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26 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Trump ran on a distinctly less interventionist platform than anyone on R side, outside of Paul.  He also contrasted Hillary in that respect. 

And he won the nomination while Rand went nowhere, even though Trump supported the Iraq War.   And Rand ran on exactly what the post-financial crisis Tea Party movement claimed to want, while Trump expressly promised more government spending than Hillary.   The things you cite just weren't real factors.   Trump won the nomination on things like the wall and saying Mexican immigrants are rapists and promising dead-end jobs for blue collar whites who don't want to change their ways.  And he won the general because of a bad opponent and R establishment collaborators who gave him a blank check on that shit in exchange for judges and tax cuts. 

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23393

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

And he won the nomination while Rand went nowhere, even though Trump supported the Iraq War.   And Rand ran on exactly what the post-financial crisis Tea Party movement claimed to want, while Trump expressly promised more government spending than Hillary.   The things you cite just weren't real factors.   Trump won the nomination on things like the wall and saying Mexican immigrants are rapists and promising dead-end jobs for blue collar whites who don't want to change their ways.  And he won the general because of a bad opponent and R establishment collaborators who gave him a blank check on that shit in exchange for judges and tax cuts. 

And also  impactful, James comey. 

Edited by Anastasis
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Mojo Hand

Mojo Hand 4580

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39 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

And also  impactful, James comey. 

For sure.  I sort of file that broadly under bad opponent, because the server and ongoing FBI investigation was part of Hillary's baggage from the start.   It's like one of those football games that may have been decided by a bad ref, but where you had no excuse for being in a position to lose because of the bad ref.   Like, fuck that ref, and I never want to see his ass again.   But voting for a primary candidate who did something serious enough to warrant a legitimate FBI investigation — and it was a legitimate investigation even though I'm now convinced by Sessions' inaction that she didn't commit a crime — carries the foreseeable risk of some negative shit coming out at a bad time during the election. 

There's just so much blame to go around.  It's amazing how many things had to go wrong to end up with Trump. 

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28705

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

He’s a troll. Substantive discussion is worthless. Just troll him back and point out to others the idiocy of talking to this guy. 

If you think replying to a troll points out to others the idiocy of replying to trolls, you're right. But it also demonstrates that you haven't yet learned that lesson. If you had then you'd just ignore them. 

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Bateshorn

Bateshorn 9898

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 8/29/2018 at 12:43 AM, Macanudo said:

A Dingell has held a House seat from OH for over 80 years.   Where's your outrage at that?  

John Dingell, Sr held the seat from 1933-1955 (22 years)

John Dingell, Jr held it from 1955-2015 (60 fucking years!)

Dingell Jr's wife has held it from 2015 to present.   

WTF?   A  family has controlled a House seat for 85 freaking years.   And you're upset that John McCain didn't step down a few years ago?

And they've all stood for election to earn the seat.  The resident's of those district had a voice in choosing them.  McCain should have resigned his seat prior to May 30 and indicated his desire that Cindy succeed him.  Let the voter's of AZ decide.

Also: Point out where I called on McCain to step down a few year's ago.  Qoute it, Mac.

You won't find it, because I didn't.  I said he should have resigned this year when it became clear he wasn't going to return to Washington, DC because he was dying of terminal brain cancer, thus allowing the people to choose his successor instead of having the Governor appoint one for the next two years.

Edited by Bateshorn
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NowThis

NowThis 931

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Posted

this is floating about the web, purportedly written by an ex Navy man :

 

[Note: I’ve been criticized quite a bit this week for being too nice in the things I’ve written about John McCain following his death. That’s fine – I never served in the military and thus am quite reluctant to be overly critical of anyone who did. Still, the media’s absurd hero-worship of McCain as a tool for beating President Trump about the head has grated on me, as it has many readers. Earlier today, I received the text below in an email from a friend who has himself served our country in stellar fashion in the U.S. Navy for many years as a Naval Aviator and combat pilot. I’ll let this man’s words speak for themselves.]

The more you know about the real-life of John McCain, the less likely you are to want to honor him at his funeral. It seems that his dying wishes of excluding some who knew him best might simply be out of fear that they would speak the truth about him, instead of the more popular mythology.

John S. McCain was born with two silver spoons in his mouth. His grandfather was a 4-Star Admiral as well as his Father. He tapped into his family legacy for an appointment to the US Naval Academy where he was a terrible student fraught with poor grades and demerits. He graduated at the bottom of his class at Annapolis (894 of 899) and again only his family connections can explain that low of a graduate obtaining a coveted slot in flight school. His flying career validated the Navy’s standard pilot selection criteria, as this family “golden boy” crashed two aircraft and destroyed a third out of negligence and “flat-hatting”. (He flew one into the water, he ran out of gas on the way home from the Army/Navy game, and he clipped power lines in a 3rd). Your standard pilot would never would have been allowed to keep flying with even one of his incidents of incompetence, but the Admiral’s son got promoted.

Again working his family connections, he worked a transfer from an A-1 unit to an A-4 squadron where he again found himself over his head. Green in the aircraft, inexperienced in the tactics, and disliked by his squadron-mates, he forced his way to the head of the line to lead the mission of his famous shoot-down.

—-Let’s be clear. It took giant brass balls to fly these missions. Everyone who has ever strapped on a military aircraft and taken off from a ship to fly into combat deserves at least a modicum of respect. Still, the truth about what happened is important.—–

With that said, there is no doubt that John McCain was shot down due largely to his own incompetence as a pilot. In his own book, he admitted that he didn’t follow proper procedures for a missile warning, and his squadron-mates refute his account of the shoot down. He claims that he disregarded the missile warning to get his bombs off. Witnesses and the official report show that he failed to pull out at the proper altitude and was shot down by AAA. Both accounts add up to pilot error.

While in captivity, John McCain recorded propaganda to be used against the United States, he gave information that endangered (and likely cost) the lives of other Americans, and used his father’s position for preferential treatment while in captivity. Some of those recordings are available in the National Archives, others remain classified. Many are used to teach current officers what examples of the US Code of Conduct for POWs would be. McCain’s conduct in captivity was much closer to that of Bowe Bergdahl than it was Louis Zamperini.

When McCain got home, he used the fame brought about by his father’s position to live a “rock star” life. Instead of happily reuniting with his wife and three children, he had multiple affairs, abandoned his family and married his wealthy mistress less than a month after his divorce. His conduct is even more disgusting because it was largely due to the fact that his wife had been in a car accident. He didn’t just leave a woman who he had grown apart from due to the stress of war. He abandoned the badly injured mother of his children because a wealthy pretty alternative was available.

McCain then he used his celebrity and dubious “hero” status to get into a political office where he sold his support to the highest bidder for the rest of his life. The media gave him the nickname of “Maverick”, since he would often go against his party. The name “Turn Coat” would be much more fitting. McCain voted against improving the VA, while somehow amassing a $13+ million-dollar fortune as a retired officer on a disability pension plus a senator’s salary. Pretty neat trick for a “public servant” to be insanely rich, especially when his prenuptial agreement with his wealthy 2nd wife mandated total separation of finances.

It makes me want to vomit that there is discussion about appointing one of McCain’s daughters to his Senate Seat. Family connections alone got a terrible student (894 out of 899 at the Naval Academy) a pilot slot that he didn’t earn. Family connections alone propped up John S. McCain when he destroyed three aircraft out of negligence. Family connections alone kept John S. McCain from being kicked out of the Navy for his personal conduct after he returned from Vietnam (adultery is punishable by the UCMJ, and his conduct would have been career killer in today’s Navy). The McCain family produced two four star admirals who were outstanding Naval Officers. For goodness sake though, the McCain family has cashed in plenty on those men’s accomplishments. John McCain’s failures at every position he has ever held are a case study in the dangers of nepotism. It is time for this family’s influence to end.

John McCain was a fraud when he was alive, and the mythology after his death is even sillier. The liberal media loves him because his last act in congress was to prevent a milestone accomplishment for President Trump when McCain betrayed Republicans and voted “thumbs down” to the repeal of Obamacare. Somehow, again, voting against something that you campaigned for made John a “Maverick” and not a “Traitor”.

There are good and honest men with much more modest “accomplishments” due to the simple facts that they didn’t have a powerful father, and they refused to stray from their principles. You can find them at your local fire station, VFW, Legion Post, School Board, and coaching youth sports. You find them married to wives they took vows to, and raising children they love and cherish. You can find them earning honest wages in business or in service. All of these men have values and character that was NEVER displayed by John McCain.

The more anyone knows about John McCain, the less there is to like.

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burntorangebongos

burntorangebongos 10681

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Posted (edited)

Hero with feet of clay. Maybe lots of that is true about him with regard to incompetence and maybe PTSD made him fuck a lot of bitches. But I don't doubt that he was innately a man who valued honestly and integrity and felt it was important to serve and contribute to his country. He reminds me a bit of Teddy Roosevelt during the San Juan Hill campaign in Cuba. He was full hearty, full of himself, wanting validation and engaging in bravado while being reckless as fuck. It turned out good for Teddy somehow....some fucking how. But John McCain ain't no Teddy R. Whatever wrongs John McCain made as a man are more than balanced out by the rights. At least in my opinion. I would have never  voted for him nor would I have agreed with him about much. But I would have and do respect him and am proud to say he is a citizen of MY country. 

Edited by burntorangebongos
in reply to Nowthis
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DixonHur

DixonHur 11171

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, NowThis said:

this is floating about the web, purportedly written by an ex Navy man :

First of all, what in there didn't everyone already know?  I was expecting some salacious gossip.

An ex-Navy man who was never in the military?  That's a new one...

Quote

I never served in the military

 

Edited by DixonHur
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DixonHur

DixonHur 11171

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You don't believe what?  That he was born into a prominent Navy family?  That he got preferential admission to the USNA? That he was shot down?  What part don't you agree with?  Nothing in that post was controversial or even new information.

It's not uncommon for legacies or children of prominent families to get special admissions breaks.  Hell, two of our last 3 Presidents made a living off daddy's name/money.  You really think Bush or Trump would have a) dodged the draft (National Guard & Studio 54 respectively), or b) been accepted into Yale/Harvard, and Wharton without their well-connected families?

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TornACL

TornACL 7675

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The most interesting thing to me about McCain is not the man himself, but the drastic change of his relative position within the deteriorating Republican Party. 

20 years ago he was far right, and there was serious, justified (imo) concern about his temperment.

Recently, he became a voice of wisdom and a beacon of civility and decency. 

The man didn't change, but everything around him did. 

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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22 minutes ago, NowThis said:

i wasn't a proponent of that long piece, only as a sample of right wing data point against McCain, open for discussion.  I don't personally believe much of it. 

Fuck off grave dancing troll. I hope someone shits and pisses on your grave when you die. Then you’ll be even. 

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deech

deech 2251

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4 minutes ago, TornACL said:

The most interesting thing to me about McCain is not the man himself, but the drastic change of his relative position within the deteriorating Republican Party. 

20 years ago he was far right, and there was serious, justified (imo) concern about his temperment.

Recently, he became a voice of wisdom and a beacon of civility and decency. 

The man didn't change, but everything around him did. 

His party was assassinated in South Carolina by Karl Rove.   That was the turning point that led us to today.

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23356

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11 minutes ago, TornACL said:

The most interesting thing to me about McCain is not the man himself, but the drastic change of his relative position within the deteriorating Republican Party. 

20 years ago he was far right, and there was serious, justified (imo) concern about his temperment.

Recently, he became a voice of wisdom and a beacon of civility and decency. 

The man didn't change, but everything around him did. 

This is a great observation however I didn’t view him as anything close to far right when he ran against GWB in 2000.  I saw him as anti-establishment Republican but not an extremist. He could straddle the left/right fence better than most.

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Mojo Hand

Mojo Hand 4580

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52 minutes ago, NowThis said:

i wasn't a proponent of that long piece, only as a sample of right wing data point against McCain, open for discussion.  I don't personally believe much of it. 

And yet you dutifully circulated the anonymous smear in full. 

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formermav43

formermav43 4599

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Posted
1 hour ago, burntorangebongos said:

Hero with feet of clay. Maybe lots of that is true about him with regard to incompetence and maybe PTSD made him fuck a lot of bitches. But I don't doubt that he was innately a man who valued honestly and integrity and felt it was important to serve and contribute to his country. He reminds me a bit of Teddy Roosevelt during the San Juan Hill campaign in Cuba. He was full hearty, full of himself, wanting validation and engaging in bravado while being reckless as fuck. It turned out good for Teddy somehow....some fucking how. But John McCain ain't no Teddy R. Whatever wrongs John McCain made as a man are more than balanced out by the rights. At least in my opinion. I would have never  voted for him nor would I have agreed with him about much. But I would have and do respect him and am proud to say he is a citizen of MY country. 

Uphauling

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