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It appears Pope Francis is MUCH WORSE than Urban Meyer

Thetexashammer

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Loco

Loco 3752

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24 minutes ago, HouTex said:


Educates a huge number of students for one thing. Then there are Catholic Charities and local relief projects at individual parishes.

Cult indoctrination <> education

Catholic church might have done much more to prevent Science, Education, and human advancement than literally any group in human history.  Now with Rape Rape!

Edited by Loco
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Guest Lobo

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39 minutes ago, HouTex said:


Educates a huge number of students for one thing. Then there are Catholic Charities and local relief projects at individual parishes.

Sandusky's foundation literally transformed the lives of hundreds of young men in the Midwest who didn't have other positive influences on their lives.  Seriously, he didn't touch hundreds, if not thousands of kids in that organization and they benefitted greatly from his work.  Plus he and JoePa turned around the lives of thousands of Nittany Lion football players.  But I say the anal rape of kids negates it.  All of it.  

By your outstanding logic, although the badboy of osteopathic gynecology (what with his surgical gloves with the tips cut off like a badboy biker)---Larry Nassar.  Sure he molested dozens of young girls and a major U.S. university conspired to cover it up.  But that mother fucker got those girls in shape to bring home the gold, right?  

Every group has child molesters in it.  Not every group gets to shuffle them around and tell the families to shut the fuck up about it, lest they go to hell.  

Every institution like this in human history gets burned to the ground.  But for some reason, the Catholic Church gets a pass from most Americans. 

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Thetexashammer

Thetexashammer 1062

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I was trying to find an article I read, not sure if this is the one. 

 

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And this of course leads to the most-avoided topic related to this scandal — the problem of active homosexuality in the priesthood. An honest discussion of this current crisis cannot avoid addressing the issue — shouts of homophobia, intolerance, bigotry and scapegoating notwithstanding.

It is evident that the vast majority of the cases involving both the sexual abuse of minors and of adults involve male victims. The 2004 John Jay Report (The Nature and Scope of the Problem of Sexual Abuse of Minors by Catholic Priests and Deacons in the United States), which was commissioned by the U.S. bishops themselves, found that 81 percent of the victims were male and 78 percent of all victims were post-pubescent. Thus, though legally still minors, they were sexually mature in the physical sense. So, the large majority of cases involved attraction by homosexuals to young men who, though legally minors, were physically and sexually mature males, not little children. This is not pedophilia. It is homosexual attraction. Regarding the sexual abuse and harassment of seminarians or priests by bishops or other clergy, obviously 100 percent of those victims were male.

So there are two problems. One is pedophilia, the other is the gay culture within the church.

This article sums up what I am seeing in catholic media. People are just basically waiting for the asshole to resign.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/truth-is-needed-to-free-the-church-from-sacrilege-of-clergy-scandal

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Light, however, is a great sanitizer. Just as the revelations of the thousands of cases of clerical sexual abuse of minors in 2002 was not the problem, but the abuse itself that had remained hidden for decades was, so the disclosures against Archbishop McCarrick and others in recent weeks, although nauseating and infuriating, are a necessary part of the healing process. The truth is needed in order to set the Church free of these sacrileges, which devastate individual victims and wound the whole Church.

Everybody just wants truth and accountability.

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Thetexashammer

Thetexashammer 1062

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5 hours ago, Loco said:

Cult indoctrination <> education

Catholic church might have done much more to prevent Science, Education, and human advancement than literally any group in human history.  Now with Rape Rape!

So this is an example of the historical ignorance our education system creates.

The modern university system evolved out of monasteries and cathedral schools. The catholic teaching then, as now, is that science is the word of God revealed through nature. So the church always approved of teaching and scholarly inquiry, despite what is often told.

The earliest universities included Padua, the Sorbonne, Oxford, Cambridge, Siena and others. All of these universities had been given papal approval. Of course, the church was directly responsible for the preservation of ancient knowledge, from the Greeks and from the Roman Empire etc., upon which the modern university system was based. It was under the aegis of the church that the scientific research and experimentation that was the foundation of the industrial revolution were laid. Of this, there is no debate.

The Big Bang Theory, before it was the televised version of an ocular abortion, was originally proposed by a Monsignor. Because as I said, science is the word of God revealed through nature.

So really, were are here because of the church and its attitude toward science, more than for any other reason.

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Wally Fairway

Wally Fairway 5550

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If any posters from Surly happen to be talking to the Pope, or even a random Cardinal or Bishop, can you relay a question I have for them?

If not allowing priest to marry isn't one of the primary causes of sexual misconduct within the Catholic Church, how come every other religion that does allow their clergy to marry doesn't seem to have this same problem?
(and don't even get me started on women clergy vs. women priests) ancient rules and regulations to try to keep people locked in ancient ways

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NameAlreadyInUse

NameAlreadyInUse 5112

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I'd posit that lots of protestant churches have the same problem. It doesn't appear to be as widespread because the infrastructure isn't there to move them around when they get found out, but there is lots of looking the other way when people in power start molesting children, whether that person is in a church or in Congress.

NYT Not Just Catholics

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Guest Lobo

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(ad)ministers of faith rape kids.  We get it.  

The problem is, and almost always has been, not just the coverup but the enabling of the wickedly guilty to keep moving into different areas to keep at the raping.  

People rape kids.  Gonna happen.  Leaving the victim behind with a special marker on them, whilst rolling into the next parish to check out the freshmen talent is kinda what leaves a bad taste in our mouths.  

and yes, it's going to get revealed soon how many abortions were performed on some of these victims.  I'm sure the church is thankful on that front that at the vast majority of rape victims boys and then when unsure of a gender, the priests usually went for the butthole.  

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El Diablo

El Diablo 4232

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4 hours ago, Wally Fairway said:

If any posters from Surly happen to be talking to the Pope, or even a random Cardinal or Bishop, can you relay a question I have for them?

If not allowing priest to marry isn't one of the primary causes of sexual misconduct within the Catholic Church, how come every other religion that does allow their clergy to marry doesn't seem to have this same problem?
(and don't even get me started on women clergy vs. women priests) ancient rules and regulations to try to keep people locked in ancient ways

I don't think there's another religion that has the same centralized control or power that the Catholic church has. It has always been ripe for corruption by the nature of its structure.

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NameAlreadyInUse

NameAlreadyInUse 5112

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1 hour ago, Lobo said:

(ad)ministers of faith rape kids.  We get it.  

The problem is, and almost always has been, not just the coverup but the enabling of the wickedly guilty to keep moving into different areas to keep at the raping.  

People rape kids.  Gonna happen.  Leaving the victim behind with a special marker on them, whilst rolling into the next parish to check out the freshmen talent is kinda what leaves a bad taste in our mouths.  

and yes, it's going to get revealed soon how many abortions were performed on some of these victims.  I'm sure the church is thankful on that front that at the vast majority of rape victims boys and then when unsure of a gender, the priests usually went for the butthole.  

By the way, I'm 100% agreed on this.  I think its publicized more about the Catholics because they tend to do a better job of covering up for longer, and when it is uncovered, there is a much larger path of destruction because they had the infrastructure in place to move them around, whereas in most other denominations those in power are limited to just the church they are working with.

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Thetexashammer

Thetexashammer 1062

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10 hours ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

By the way, I'm 100% agreed on this.  I think its publicized more about the Catholics because they tend to do a better job of covering up for longer, and when it is uncovered, there is a much larger path of destruction because they had the infrastructure in place to move them around, whereas in most other denominations those in power are limited to just the church they are working with.

I'm not the expert of the subject I am about to discuss. Nevertheless, here goes.

The virtue of catholicism is the preservation of theology. Even the Pope cannot change the everlasting Word of God. But a a canonical bureaucracy brings certain negatives, to include the inability manage a complex infrastructure of money and personnel.  It can't be done.

Where I think this goes is that we separate the liturgical duties from the managerial duties from the strictly administrative matters. In all likelihood, this requires a Third Vatican Council. We must not destroy the good along with the bad. Priests will remain charged with all matters liturgical and sacramental. But civilians must manage worldly matters. Like, you know, crimes and shit.

https://biblehub.com/matthew/16-25.htm

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For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.

 

What matters is the essential teaching. And for that you need morally acceptable teachers. And we don't have that right now.

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Apep

Apep 645

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The solution isn't burning it down to the ground. The solution is disestablishing the Holy See, the Vatican, and the Knights of Malta as sovereign states. If cardinals and popes can be served in Italy and extradited, most of the problem will go away. Financial and general corruption by organized crime will also greatly diminish as as the profits of corrupting Vatican officials decrease due to better oversight of money laundering and other issues. If all of this happens, you might also see an attack on "church taxes" in places like Germany where believers must pay an additional income tax to receive services. The idea is that if we limit the opportunity for graft, the corrupt will move on to different scams.

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Thetexashammer

Thetexashammer 1062

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Everyone's turning on the pope. Everyone. 

https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2018/09/24/vatican-cardinal-pope-francis-ice-cold-cunning-machiavellian/

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The German progressive weekly Der Spiegel has ended its love affair with the pope, declaring that the Church’s sex abuse crisis is “increasingly about Pope Francis.”

In a stunning cover article titled “The Silence of the Shepherds,” the magazine blasts the pope for his unwillingness to answer direct questions regarding what he knew about the serial homosexual abuse by U.S. Cardinal Theodore McCarrick and when he knew it.

......

One Vatican cardinal, who spoke with Der Spiegel under the condition of anonymity, said of the pontiff: “He preaches mercy, but in reality he is an ice-cold, cunning Machiavellian, and, what is worse – he lies.”

 

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Thetexashammer

Thetexashammer 1062

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https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2018/11/28/cardinal-muller-vigano-no-one-has-right-demand-popes-resignation

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VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- People can disagree about problems and the best ways to resolve them, but no one should launch a formal accusation against a pope much less ask for his resignation, German Cardinal Gerhard Muller said.

Such public attacks put into question the church's credibility, he said in an interview with the Italian website Vatican Insider Nov. 27.

"I am personally convinced that Pope Francis is doing everything possible to oppose the phenomenon of abuse against minors and to foster a new spirituality among priests who must act with the heart of Christ and do what is good for all people, above all for children and young people," he said in a lengthy question-and-answer piece.

Asked about Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano's public call for Pope Francis to resign because he felt the pope knew about the alleged sex abuse involving U.S. Archbishop Theodore E. McCarrick's but still failed to act, Cardinal Muller said, "No one has a right to indict the pope or ask him to resign."

"We all have to cooperate in order to overcome this crisis (of abuse) that wounds the credibility of the church."

Um, no you pompous asshole. Everyone has the right to state he should resign. What "wounds the credibility" is protecting a pope who is guilty of sheltering abusers and preventing their punishment. You fucking mouth breathing arrogant selfish moron.

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bernorange

bernorange 8361

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On 9/17/2018 at 10:03 PM, Thetexashammer said:

... So the church always approved of teaching and scholarly inquiry, despite what is often told. ...

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...

By 1615, Galileo's writings on heliocentrism had been submitted to the Roman Inquisition by Father Niccolò Lorini, who claimed that Galileo and his followers were attempting to reinterpret the Bible, which was seen as a violation of the Council of Trent and looked dangerously like Protestantism.[72] Lorini specifically cited Galileo's letter to Castelli.[73] Galileo went to Rome to defend himself and his Copernican and biblical ideas. At the start of 1616, Monsignor Francesco Ingoli initiated a debate with Galileo, sending him an essay disputing the Copernican system. Galileo later stated that he believed this essay to have been instrumental in the action against Copernicanism that followed.[74] According to Maurice Finocchiaro, Ingoli had probably been commissioned by the Inquisition to write an expert opinion on the controversy, and the essay provided the "chief direct basis" for the Inquisition's actions.[75] The essay focused on eighteen physical and mathematical arguments against heliocentrism. It borrowed primarily from the arguments of Tycho Brahe, and it notedly mentioned Brahe's argument that heliocentrism required the stars to be much larger than the Sun. Ingoli wrote that the great distance to the stars in the heliocentric theory "clearly proves ... the fixed stars to be of such size, as they may surpass or equal the size of the orbit circle of the Earth itself."[76] The essay also included four theological arguments, but Ingoli suggested Galileo focus on the physical and mathematical arguments, and he did not mention Galileo's biblical ideas.[77] In February 1616, an Inquisitorial commission declared heliocentrism to be "foolish and absurd in philosophy, and formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts in many places the sense of Holy Scripture." The Inquisition found that the idea of the Earth's movement "receives the same judgement in philosophy and... in regard to theological truth it is at least erroneous in faith".[78] (The original document from the Inquisitorial commission was made widely available in 2014.[79])

Pope Paul V instructed Cardinal Bellarmine to deliver this finding to Galileo, and to order him to abandon the opinion that heliocentrism was physically true. On 26 February, Galileo was called to Bellarmine's residence and ordered:

... to abandon completely... the opinion that the sun stands still at the center of the world and the earth moves, and henceforth not to hold, teach, or defend it in any way whatever, either orally or in writing.[80]

The decree of the Congregation of the Index banned Copernicus's De Revolutionibus and other heliocentric works until correction.[80] Bellarmine's instructions did not prohibit Galileo from discussing heliocentrism as a mathematical and philosophic idea, so long as he did not advocate for its physical truth.[11][81]

For the next decade, Galileo stayed well away from the controversy. He revived his project of writing a book on the subject, encouraged by the election of Cardinal Maffeo Barberini as Pope Urban VIII in 1623. Barberini was a friend and admirer of Galileo, and had opposed the condemnation of Galileo in 1616. Galileo's resulting book, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, was published in 1632, with formal authorization from the Inquisition and papal permission.[82]

Earlier, Pope Urban VIII had personally asked Galileo to give arguments for and against heliocentrism in the book, and to be careful not to advocate heliocentrism. He made another request, that his own views on the matter be included in Galileo's book. Only the latter of those requests was fulfilled by Galileo.

Whether unknowingly or deliberately, Simplicio, the defender of the Aristotelian geocentric view in Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, was often caught in his own errors and sometimes came across as a fool. Indeed, although Galileo states in the preface of his book that the character is named after a famous Aristotelian philosopher (Simplicius in Latin, "Simplicio" in Italian), the name "Simplicio" in Italian also has the connotation of "simpleton".[83] This portrayal of Simplicio made Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems appear as an advocacy book: an attack on Aristotelian geocentrism and defence of the Copernican theory. Unfortunately for his relationship with the Pope, Galileo put the words of Urban VIII into the mouth of Simplicio.

Most historians agree Galileo did not act out of malice and felt blindsided by the reaction to his book. However, the Pope did not take the suspected public ridicule lightly, nor the Copernican advocacy.

Galileo had alienated one of his biggest and most powerful supporters, the Pope, and was called to Rome to defend his writings[84] in September 1632. He finally arrived in February 1633 and was brought before inquisitor Vincenzo Maculani to be charged. Throughout his trial, Galileo steadfastly maintained that since 1616 he had faithfully kept his promise not to hold any of the condemned opinions, and initially he denied even defending them. However, he was eventually persuaded to admit that, contrary to his true intention, a reader of his Dialogue could well have obtained the impression that it was intended to be a defence of Copernicanism. In view of Galileo's rather implausible denial that he had ever held Copernican ideas after 1616 or ever intended to defend them in the Dialogue, his final interrogation, in July 1633, concluded with his being threatened with torture if he did not tell the truth, but he maintained his denial despite the threat.[85]

The sentence of the Inquisition was delivered on 22 June. It was in three essential parts:

  • Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy", namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.[86]

He was sentenced to formal imprisonment at the pleasure of the Inquisition.[87] On the following day, this was commuted to house arrest, which he remained under for the rest of his life. His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.[88]

...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei

Edit:  Not sure why the last half of this post is in bold font.  It was not intended.

Edited by bernorange
stupid formatting
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bernorange

bernorange 8361

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Eighty per cent of Vatican priests are gay and living in the closet, according to an explosive new book to be published next week.

The 570-page expose, titled In the Closet of the Vatican, claims that four in five clerics in the Roman Catholic Church are homosexuals - but aren't necessarily sexually active.

French sociologist and journalist Frederic Martel, who spent four years conducting 1,500 interviews for the book, found that some priests maintained discreet long term relationships, while others lived double lives having casual sex with gay partners and using male prostitutes.

He found that a number of clerics spoke of an unspoken code of the 'closet', with one rule of thumb being that the more homophobic they were, the more likely they were gay.
...
Martel, a former adviser to the French government who is openly gay, claims he spoke with 41 cardinals, 52 bishops and monsignors, 45 papal ambassadors or diplomatic officials, 11 Swiss guards and more than 200 priests and seminarians as research for the book.

The author spent around 200 weeks staying in residences inside the Vatican in Rome, according to the Tablet.  

Although the book doesn't conflate homosexuality with the child sex abuse in the church, Martel claims gay priests do not want to report abuse on children in case their on homosexuality is exposed - according to sources familiar with the book's contents.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6696977/Eighty-cent-Vatican-priests-gay-according-explosive-new-book.html

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Guest Lobo

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Well, I think gay, straight, Catholic, Protestant, molested, non-molested...we can all agree on one thing, "The Closet of the Vatican" is just an awesome title with so much potential.  

I for one, will be tuning in...

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 45952

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I know a woman here in Austin who counsels youth that have been abused, and she has done quite a bit of digging into the Catholic church, since there are so many incidents of abuse that happen within.  She told me almost a year ago that the incidence of gay Catholic clergy is far higher than in the secular population, and it's mostly because young gay Catholic men don't want to come out to their families, so they go into the priesthood, where it is all covered up.

She also said a great deal of the "pedophilia" isn't as extreme as it sometimes gets played out, as in adult with young child, but quite often is adult with late teens.  It doesn't make it right, but it does tend to shift it into more of a teacher/HS student paradigm, at least some of the time.

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Apep

Apep 645

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Most surveys put the number of homosexual Catholic priests somewhere between 15% and 60%. Informed observers, (such as the psychologists who treat them), put it higher for the bishops and cardinals. Since the Vatican consists of bishops, cardinals, and wannabe bishops climbing the career ladder, 80% would not be shocking. The situation is compounded by the fact that Italy is a hotbed of organized crime families whose members have always sought to suborn clerics to use in their schemes and that, in certain respects, there isn't much difference between the criminals and the Vatican bureaucrats. So even if a gay priest is celibate and chaste in his home diocese, when he goes to Rome the coke-fueled orgies are just too tempting. There was even one crazy example of (presumably bisexual) man who fucked girls before entering seminary, switched to dudes in seminary, and then quit the Church to go back to women. So sometimes it might be like prison. Some of these dudes may not even be gay, but they started seminary in their early teens and kinda went Spartan warrior. Who knows?

 

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HouTex

HouTex 1867

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2 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Fair to say though that the Church has never been upfront about it.

That situation would change considerably if they would ditch the stupid rule about not allowing the ordination of married men.

It's become a question of money.  Right now the priests can't keep up with their duties within their parishes and maintain a family.  Surveys of priests confirm this.  So if priests are allowed to marry parishes would need more of them to do the same work.  In addition, the obvious cost of supporting the married priests and their (large) families would have to be considered.  Many parish'es budgets would increase several fold.  Still, I believe priests should be allowed to marry.

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Apep

Apep 645

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1 minute ago, Armybrat said:

Fair to say though that the Church has never been upfront about it.

That situation would change considerably if they would ditch the stupid rule about not allowing the ordination of married men.

Married men can be ordained. This is normal for Eastern Catholics. Even for Latins, formerly Protestant ministers can be ordained as married men. In fact, the documents that set up the so-called "Personal Ordinariates" for former Anglicans entering the Catholic Church allow the ordination of married men who were not previously Protestant ministers -- provided that Rome approves.

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Armybrat

Armybrat 40844

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6 minutes ago, HouTex said:

It's become a question of money.  Right now the priests can't keep up with their duties within their parishes and maintain a family.  Surveys of priests confirm this.  So if priests are allowed to marry parishes would need more of them to do the same work.  In addition, the obvious cost of supporting the married priests and their (large) families would have to be considered.  Many parish'es budgets would increase several fold.  Still, I believe priests should be allowed to marry.

That is a good point, but the hundreds of millions the Church has paid out and will pay out to the assault/rape victims could have offset a lot of the increased expenses.

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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8397

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1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

I know a woman here in Austin who counsels youth that have been abused, and she has done quite a bit of digging into the Catholic church, since there are so many incidents of abuse that happen within.  She told me almost a year ago that the incidence of gay Catholic clergy is far higher than in the secular population, and it's mostly because young gay Catholic men don't want to come out to their families, so they go into the priesthood, where it is all covered up.

She also said a great deal of the "pedophilia" isn't as extreme as it sometimes gets played out, as in adult with young child, but quite often is adult with late teens.  It doesn't make it right, but it does tend to shift it into more of a teacher/HS student paradigm, at least some of the time.

Both are wrong.  But sex with a post-pubescent teen is not in the same ballpark as molesting a pre-pubescent child.

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