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Posted
not sure why you thought calling me a "deviant" was funny when you typed it out, unless you're 11 years old or something.



Because pooping in public could be considered an act of deviance, but more so because of the alliteration that comes with combining deviance and defecation?? Of all the things that get posted on this site daily; I am baffled that that would cause anyone angst. Also, to be told, on this site no less, that my sense of humor is immature is equally baffling. My apologies
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Posted
32 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

 

 


Because pooping in public could be considered an act of deviance, but more so because of the alliteration that comes with combining deviance and defecation?? Of all the things that get posted on this site daily; I am baffled that that would cause anyone angst. Also, to be told, on this site no less, that my sense of humor is immature is equally baffling. My apologies

 

 

Okay my fault.

If deviance is only related to shitting in public then I - theoretically - would be guilty as charged. 

I took it as an insult of who I am. I apologize for jumping to that conclusion. Hopefully you can appreciate why I’m on edge. 

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Posted
3 hours ago, Helobious said:

Honest question: what exactly do we need so much timber for? More wood to build houses for our totally exploding population? I don’t get the long game.

You think there's a long game? 

Posted
17 hours ago, Captainant said:

The president has ordered federal lands and forests to be turned over to the logging industry to """protect our national security"""

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/03/trump-national-forest-executive-order

The kicker is that he's using the pretense of it reducing fire risk, when in reality it's going to reduce the ability of forests to hold water and make those areas significantly drier. It's going to destroy those ancient ecosystems and they will be gone forever.

Go while you still can!

 

the dumbest most corrupt president ever 

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Posted
3 hours ago, Helobious said:

Honest question: what exactly do we need so much timber for? More wood to build houses for our totally exploding population? I don’t get the long game.

The reasons being cited - "national security" - they make no sense. It's to your benefit to buy out the other guy (Canada) at cheap prices and use up their supply, and then you are left with plenty of wood in your own backyard.  If we log a shitload of our own stuff now, down the road when it's expensive, we'll be buying from Canada at prices they set.

Real reason? You can see who gave who money last year in the CR thread.

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Posted
4 hours ago, Helobious said:

Honest question: what exactly do we need so much timber for? More wood to build houses for our totally exploding population? I don’t get the long game.

 

they have to replace all the timber we used to be buy from canada 

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Posted
34 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

they have to replace all the timber we used to be buy from canada 

This is all BS. Buddy's family is in timber. East Texas, Arkansas. Says it is not a shortage of trees, it is a lack of sawmills. Don't know if true, but if so we all better like the log cabin look.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

This is all BS. Buddy's family is in timber. East Texas, Arkansas. Says it is not a shortage of trees, it is a lack of sawmills. Don't know if true, but if so we all better like the log cabin look.

 

and there's a reason for that !!!!

 

Edited by tx 3 putt
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Posted
31 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

This is all BS. Buddy's family is in timber. East Texas, Arkansas. Says it is not a shortage of trees, it is a lack of sawmills. Don't know if true, but if so we all better like the log cabin look.

I read a few years ago that US forests coast to coast are actually in the best shape they have been in since before we were clear cutting with reckless abandon.  Out west drought is a concern but the US has tons of forested land like 800 million acres. US forests are actually a major carbon sink for the earth, one of the top countries in terms of forest resources. There’s a ton of forests east of the Mississippi and most of the time we think of Rocky Mountain forests. 

I think there’s plenty of room to grow the timber industry I just want it done wisely and not on old growth national parks and done in a way that is truly sustainable.

but to your point - no one wants a sawmill by their home. 

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Posted

You do have to log forests, any forests, to keep them healthy.  As has been pointed out by @flatdawgs, I believe, that already occurs as a normal part of forest management on federal lands.

That, then, has to mean that this is on a more commercial scale (the best privately owned and managed timberlands throw off plenty of revenue just from maintenance cutting) that is harmful to the forest, either to the forest itself or to its aesthetic appeal.

In Trump's education on how government works, he somehow stumbled on the fact that presidential power is at its highest when national security is involved.  That's going to become his empty incantation for the rest of his term/life/whateverthefuck.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

This is all BS. Buddy's family is in timber. East Texas, Arkansas. Says it is not a shortage of trees, it is a lack of sawmills. Don't know if true, but if so we all better like the log cabin look.

10 or so years ago, maybe more, and in the recent past, Canadian imports had a significant impact on the price of lumber in the US.  We seem to have caught up so that Canada isn't as influential on the price.

But you can bet that Canadian timber +25% is going to send US prices soaring, even if it's no longer a limiting factor.

But yeah lack of sawmill capacity is definitely an issue.  But a lot of southern, southeastern US timber doesn't go to sawmills.  It's not economical to saw because it's too small relative to PNW timber.  It goes into paper pulp and engineered wood products like OSB.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Posted

Reluctant to get into a borderline CR topic, but here goes.  Our family has a bit of southern pine timberland.  Growing cycles of southern timber vs. PNW timber are not comparable.  Southern is well less than PNW (many times over 50%).  Our Forester consultant tells us that the industry is changing a bunch.  Nobody wants the big trees much anymore unless for telephone poles.  Dimensional lumber and engineered products are the future.  You want a 12x12 beam or post?  That's now going to be an engineered product precisely made from smaller timber with advanced adhesives. Why?  Because it is a more reliable product.  Less bowing or curling and it will be exactly the size requested by the customer.  Agree some with Twice on sawmill capacity, but we've been told that it is a matter of us needing to respond to the market demand and shortening our harvest horizons.  YMMV.

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Posted
4 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

Reluctant to get into a borderline CR topic, but here goes.  Our family has a bit of southern pine timberland.  Growing cycles of southern timber vs. PNW timber are not comparable.  Southern is well less than PNW (many times over 50%).  Our Forester consultant tells us that the industry is changing a bunch.  Nobody wants the big trees much anymore unless for telephone poles.  Dimensional lumber and engineered products are the future.  You want a 12x12 beam or post?  That's now going to be an engineered product precisely made from smaller timber with advanced adhesives. Why?  Because it is a more reliable product.  Less bowing or curling and it will be exactly the size requested by the customer.  Agree some with Twice on sawmill capacity, but we've been told that it is a matter of us needing to respond to the market demand and shortening our harvest horizons.  YMMV.

I got out of timber ownership and management just a few years ago, but that sounds about right.

Occasionally, we'd have some nice tall straight pines good for poles and that made for a nice biennial cutting.

And, I suppose it was only a matter of time before engineered products overtook solid sawn lumber, but most of the time we felt like we were playing second fiddle to the PNW as far as high-value timber.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I got out of timber ownership and management just a few years ago, but that sounds about right.

Occasionally, we'd have some nice tall straight pines good for poles and that made for a nice biennial cutting.

And, I suppose it was only a matter of time before engineered products overtook solid sawn lumber, but most of the time we felt like we were playing second fiddle to the PNW as far as high-value timber.

And that may be correct in terms of second-fiddle to PNW, but that is a very niche product for high-end custom construction.  Factor in shorter growth cycles, lower transportation, harvest, and sawmill costs -- anything behind drywall (or maybe even to be painted) is going to be engineered Southern Pine.  Love old-growth forests up north, but my family has managed East Texas timber for over a 100 years, and yeah, it looks pretty shitty when it is time for a final clear cut of a parcel, but it does come back quicker than you'd think.  

Edited by DalTxHornFan
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Posted
7 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

If lumber companies were required to replant

I'm certain Steven Miller is actively working on that executive order so that they clear cut responsibly.  Top of the list!

Posted
1 hour ago, DalTxHornFan said:

And that may be correct in terms of second-fiddle to PNW, but that is a very niche product for high-end custom construction.  Factor in shorter growth cycles, lower transportation, harvest, and sawmill costs -- anything behind drywall (or maybe even to be painted) is going to be engineered Southern Pine.  Love old-growth forests up north, but my family has managed East Texas timber for over a 100 years, and yeah, it looks pretty shitty when it is time for a final clear cut of a parcel, but it does come back quicker than you'd think.  

About the only place you'll find wild bobwhite in East Texas is deep in timber country where a stand has been clearcut and replanted a few years ago. That kind of management is actually pretty important for a lot of plant and animal communities in the south. 

Posted
57 minutes ago, texasdago said:

I'm certain Steven Miller is actively working on that executive order so that they clear cut responsibly.  Top of the list!

It's actually a legal mandate to sustainably manage the national forests. No executive order needed. They can increase production, but never decrease it legally. So it's kinda like stonks. 

Posted
9 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

 

Notice those trees in the foreground? Regrowth after being clear cut. Notice how they are all the same size (age), too close together, and stressed (brown). Recipe for a disastrous fire. 

Natural old growth forests have trees that are not all the same age, not too close together, and generally not stressed. Much more resistant to fires. 

If lumber companies were required to replant, with saplings spread out, over the course of many years so they wouldn't all be the same age and too close together, it would really make a huge difference. But that would mean you hate freedom, so not going to happen. 

I assume you mean the treeline in the background. They are mostly brown because shade intolerant species are generally self pruning once the canopy closure stage is reached. For the unfamiliar, this basically means that lower branches don't get enough sunlight once the trees in the stand grow tall enough to shade them out and they die. This is a pretty typical growth pattern for most conifers. Some of them are all brown because they aren't used to getting that much sunlight and are basically the tree version of sunburned. As far as natural old growth forest being uneven aged stands, that is a pretty sweeping statement, and generally a wrong one for a lot of if not most shade intolerant species. The natural succession for conifers (and some others) in the west is a catastrophic fire take out whole swaths of forest. But the trees are ready for that and have mechanisms to reestablish themselves after the fire. Some of them actually depend on fire to open up their cones and release seeds, so fire is necessary. Then a whole even aged stand of timber grows in place. Way too many tree by modern standards. We thin out trees and sell them for pulp in the south to reduce the number of stems per acre, but the USFS generally practices natural regeneration. The way that works is eventually the stronger trees choke out the weaker trees and the weaker ones die. In the south they make a snag and provide habitat for a lot of animals and bugs and stuff until they fall down and rot. In the west, they just kind of hang out and create fuel ladders until another fire sweeps through and starts the whole process over. Done properly, clear cutting mimics this natural process and instead of converting the wood into carbon dioxide, it sequesters it into the walls of the houses built out of it. Obviously done properly is key here, but do you really think a bunch of USFS employees who have dedicated their lives to growing sustainable forests because that is something they love are just gonna say screw it, let's just turn it all into a moonscape?

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Posted
1 hour ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

It's actually a legal mandate to sustainably manage the national forests. No executive order needed. They can increase production, but never decrease it legally. So it's kinda like stonks. 

Well the president has done such a good job following the law so far, what with seizing the power of the purse from Congress and unilaterally tearing up the USMCA (that he himself signed 4 and a half years ago)

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Posted
1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Well the president has done such a good job following the law so far, what with seizing the power of the purse from Congress and unilaterally tearing up the USMCA (that he himself signed 4 and a half years ago)

Hence my reluctance to even engage this thread with reasoned and appropriate subject matter discussion.  I'm out.

Posted
3 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

Hence my reluctance to even engage this thread with reasoned and appropriate subject matter discussion.  I'm out.

My guy, what is your problem with my post? It's 100% factual. 

I think you're lazily using your dislike for me as a convenient excuse to ignore a national tragedy moving in slow motion

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Posted
20 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Well the president has done such a good job following the law so far, what with seizing the power of the purse from Congress and unilaterally tearing up the USMCA (that he himself signed 4 and a half years ago)

So, your working theory is that all of the people who work for the USFS, who went to college for forestry because they love nature and being in the forests and want to keep them forever because they are the best thing ever in their minds are just going to suddenly decide that sustainable management isn't really all that important and who cares if we lose our national forests that they have spent their whole lives trying to build? 

Did you actually read the executive order? Because they would all have to be complicit for your doomsday scenario to play out.

As stated earlier, the choke point is our sawmill capacity. if we are running at full capacity, soliciting more bids for a supply of a natural resource without and increased demand for it will likely only lead to a slight increase in USFS land timber harvesting combined with a general decrease in the price of timber for private growers. Great for the sawmills, not good for private landowners growing timber. But the sky isn't actually falling. It's a stupid EO, but it isn't likely to lead to the doomsday scenario that it has been touted as.

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Posted
18 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

So, your working theory is that all of the people who work for the USFS, who went to college for forestry because they love nature and being in the forests and want to keep them forever because they are the best thing ever in their minds are just going to suddenly decide that sustainable management isn't really all that important and who cares if we lose our national forests that they have spent their whole lives trying to build? 

You mean all those people getting fired by DOGE? Our national parks and forestry service have been gutted already, the defense mechanism you hang your hat on has already been undermined. 

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-forest-service-fires-3400-workers-park-service-cuts-1000-2025-02-14/

20 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Did you actually read the executive order? Because they would all have to be complicit for your doomsday scenario to play out.

Yeah, I did. All it takes for them to be complicit is to do nothing because they've been fired and have no authority to act. If they protest what's to stop the president from doing as he did before and threaten to pull funding over their "illegal protests"?

22 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

As stated earlier, the choke point is our sawmill capacity. if we are running at full capacity, soliciting more bids for a supply of a natural resource without and increased demand for it will likely only lead to a slight increase in USFS land timber harvesting combined with a general decrease in the price of timber for private growers. Great for the sawmills, not good for private landowners growing timber. But the sky isn't actually falling. It's a stupid EO, but it isn't likely to lead to the doomsday scenario that it has been touted as.

The sawmills are necessary to get something for destroying our national forests. They can still be destroyed and wasted, sawmills or not. Shit man, he's already ordered the army to dump 2.2 billion gallons of water out of resiviors just to feel like he did something 

https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2025-01-31/trump-california-dams-opened-up

I'm just saying, it's ok to be aware of current events and our presidents decision making pattern. It tends to be a pretty good guide for his actions, even if it makes you feel uncomfortable 

Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

So, your working theory is that all of the people who work for the USFS, who went to college for forestry because they love nature and being in the forests and want to keep them forever because they are the best thing ever in their minds are just going to suddenly decide that sustainable management isn't really all that important and who cares if we lose our national forests that they have spent their whole lives trying to build? 

Did you actually read the executive order? Because they would all have to be complicit for your doomsday scenario to play out.

The people that USED to work for the USFS you mean. Not complicit, just removed. 3,400 of them so far with another thousand from park service. 

hence the concern. 

Edited by sidis
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Posted (edited)

This is a painful topic to those of us who grew up in the PNW (or, I assume, in other forested areas). I can see three national parks from my office window, and most everything else in between is national forest. We grew up playing, fishing, hunting (wasn't my thing, but certainly friends did), and - most of all - hiking in them. To this day it is where I'm happiest. I recall the days of actual clearcutting right down to the streams, rivers, and highways, and would so hate to see that return. Nowadays they have to leave buffers and replant, which doesn't replace the more mixed natural forests but is a renewable resource and as such is likely to continue. Selective logging is best but is still fairly rare.

The lack of sawmills is definitely a thing out here as well, at least in WA. Oregon is still a resource colony WRT timber and probably have more remaining. When I was young two places all the kids in Seattle went to on field trips were a salmon hatchery and a sawmill. Both are ingrained in us as part of our home. The hatcheries are still there; the sawmills, since the early Reagan years, are mostly gone. Now raw logs are sent to Asia for milling and their use. Our lumber comes from Canada - easy enough to see the trains and trucks rolling through Seattle.

Mass timber construction will continue to grow; building codes have very recently been updated to allow for greater use, even in high-rise construction, and there are now local wood product manufacturers here again to produce those materials. As mentioned above, though, stick frame/dimensional lumber will still dominate the construction market for some time to come, and Canada has the mills. Like manufacturing elsewhere in this country, it effectively no longer exists here - certainly not as it once did.

Edited by flatdawgs
happy little trees
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Posted

Elon needs a place to take kids #11, #14 and 17 for a  yearly 3 day retreat at Yosemite and needs an unobstructed view of El Capitan. He is going to need at least 1000 acres to build his lodge.  And then there is Bezos -- Bezos doesn't really want to be near Musk, so he is going to need an easement for his 1500 acres.  

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Posted
12 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I got out of timber ownership and management just a few years ago, but that sounds about right.

Occasionally, we'd have some nice tall straight pines good for poles and that made for a nice biennial cutting.

And, I suppose it was only a matter of time before engineered products overtook solid sawn lumber, but most of the time we felt like we were playing second fiddle to the PNW as far as high-value timber.

Third fiddle. #1 is Adirondack spruce for that kind of tonewood but Sitka is next up for sure.

Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, DalTxHornFan said:

Hence my reluctance to even engage this thread with reasoned and appropriate subject matter discussion.  I'm out.

The fact that this discussion is even happening is because of a complete lack of any reasoned or appropriate approaches to the subject matter, and you know goddamned well why.

Edited by 'stache
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Posted

There is no hyperbole in this thread at ALL!  We are doomed in the goat ass.  Seriously! Believe me!  I know what I'm saying.  No, really though.  Why don't you see it?  Its obvious as fuck.  I'm educated and you are high functioning retard that should shut up before the rest of shame you.  

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Posted
10 minutes ago, RollLeft said:

There is no hyperbole in this thread at ALL!  We are doomed in the goat ass.  Seriously! Believe me!  I know what I'm saying.  No, really though.  Why don't you see it?  Its obvious as fuck.  I'm educated and you are high functioning retard that should shut up before the rest of shame you.  

IMG_2376.gif.39e726650b7854e4b81c758493345d9e.gif

Posted
17 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

This is all BS. Buddy's family is in timber. East Texas, Arkansas. Says it is not a shortage of trees, it is a lack of sawmills. Don't know if true, but if so we all better like the log cabin look.

Ain't no money in that.

 

Posted
17 minutes ago, RollLeft said:

There is no hyperbole in this thread at ALL!  We are doomed in the goat ass.  Seriously! Believe me!  I know what I'm saying.  No, really though.  Why don't you see it?  Its obvious as fuck.  I'm educated and you are high functioning retard that should shut up before the rest of shame you.  

A masterclass in projection and insecurity. 

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Posted
21 minutes ago, RollLeft said:

There is no hyperbole in this thread at ALL!  We are doomed in the goat ass.  Seriously! Believe me!  I know what I'm saying.  No, really though.  Why don't you see it?  Its obvious as fuck.  I'm educated and you are high functioning retard that should shut up before the rest of shame you.  

Well, I'm not sure I'd go as far as "high-functioning"

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Posted
44 minutes ago, RollLeft said:

There is no hyperbole in this thread at ALL!  We are doomed in the goat ass.  Seriously! Believe me!  I know what I'm saying.  No, really though.  Why don't you see it?  Its obvious as fuck.  I'm educated and you are high functioning retard that should shut up before the rest of shame you.  

The category 6 hurricanes that we won't be able to see coming will wipe out all the forests long before Trump and Musk and their army of chainsaw wielding autistics get there 

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Posted
1 hour ago, RollLeft said:

There is no hyperbole in this thread at ALL!  We are doomed in the goat ass.  Seriously! Believe me!  I know what I'm saying.  No, really though.  Why don't you see it?  Its obvious as fuck.  I'm educated and you are high functioning retard that should shut up before the rest of shame you.  

 

Some of the parks have not yet recovered from the last government shutdown, when they were kept open with minimal or no or volunteer staff. Clogged toilets are probably fixed by now, but destroyed cacti in Joshua tree will not recover in our lifetimes. This isn't going to be any different. 

Is it hyperbole to think the plan is to ruin the parks by firing all the employees to be able to say "See the government can't take care of them, but the private sector will, so lets sell them off."

What do you suppose the Venn diagram of people/companies who will buy the parks and the people/companies who contributed to DOTarD's campaign looks like? 

 

 

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Posted
30 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

Is it hyperbole to think the plan is to ruin the parks by firing all the employees to be able to say "See the government can't take care of them, but the private sector will, so lets sell them off."

How could it be hyperbole when the affiliates of the regime have said...."that is exactly our plan" (privatizing all federal land)?

It is all right there out in the open.  No guessing or pondering is required.

Posted
2 hours ago, Bill Brasky said:

The category 6 hurricanes that we won't be able to see coming will wipe out all the forests long before Trump and Musk and their army of chainsaw wielding autistics get there 

🤣Django GIF by Giphy QA

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