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Posted
4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The convincable middle is pretty fucking dumb too.  See November 2024.

I mean do you even see your own internal disconnect? 

"Democrats need to offer carefully considered messaging utilizing logic and relatable ideals in order to convince the voters who are... checks notes... dumb as hell and not swayable with logical reason."

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Posted
1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

The people who have the power to return him to the United States.

 

The people with that power do not care if he was here legally or not. That seems like it should be obvious.


I’m not sure what point you’re making but it’s really really stupid.

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Posted
1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

I mean do you even see your own internal disconnect? 

"Democrats need to offer carefully considered messaging utilizing logic and relatable ideals in order to convince the voters who are... checks notes... dumb as hell and not swayable with logical reason."

Ok, so you have the left, which is already convinced, the Trumpers who are also already convinced the other way.

And then the dumb, but not quite brainwashed "middle."  And between them and the Trumpers, they have a majority.

So, I guess it's good we're not having elections that Democrats can't possibly win.

And, I didn't say WHAT the messaging should be and didn't say anything about logic or relatable ideals.  I just said they can't do what they usually do.

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Posted
Just now, Huckleberry said:

I mean do you even see your own internal disconnect? 

"Democrats need to offer carefully considered messaging utilizing logic and relatable ideals in order to convince the voters who are... checks notes... dumb as hell and not swayable with logical reason."

Bingo.

Tell them the sweet, sweet, inflammatory lies that they need to hear.

FFS, these assholes have successfully messaged for decades that he gubmint/deep state is coming to snatch you up and take you to wal-mart jails in Bluebell ice cream trucks ("NO GESTAPO IN BASTROPO!")....we just need to send the same message, built on the ACTUAL snatch-and-grabs this regime is doing right now. 

They said they are coming for US citizens.  They will grab you on the street, in your home, in your car.  They will send you to a foreign prison without even letting you call your family or lawyer.  They will do it not because you've committed a crime, but just for what you think or say -- they told us that, too.  The communist authoritarians are here -- they snuck in by lying to you.  But you're too smart to fall for those lies now.  Patriotic Americans stop evil billionaires who kidnap people - y'all are patriotic Americans, right?  Protect yourselves now!  

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

The people with that power do not care if he was here legally or not. That seems like it should be obvious.


I’m not sure what point you’re making but it’s really really stupid.

That tracks because I'm really, really stupid.

But Ima try to type harder to change their minds.

Edited by David Dennison
Posted
13 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

I don't give a fuck what the Republicans will or will not ignore.

The man was here legally.  He was in the country every bit as legally as I am here or you are here.  The laws of the United States of America say he was here legally.

If we want to ignore the laws of the United States of America and say that he can be sent to a Salvadoran concentration camp for . . . reasons, then nobody else who is here legally is safe.  Not you.  Not me.

I don't give a fuck what the Republicans say.  That's the facts, Jack.  And we need to quit worrying about what Republicans will say or what their brainwashed Nazi supporters will say.  The question is on the table: will we be a nation of laws?  Or will we be an autocracy in which everyone must live in fear of a knock on the door in the middle of the night by men coming to take you to the camps?  Is this the United States of America?  Or is this the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany?

The question is on the table.  And I don't give a fuck what Republicans have to say about it.

Speak on it now come on

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Posted
5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

That tracks because I'm really, really stupid.

But Ima try to type harder to change their minds.

What has been your point this entire time? 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

What has been your point this entire time? 

Basically that screaming louder isn't going to make a shit to an administration hell bent on not complying. Donald Trump knows he'll never be held accountable by Congress and the courts can't touch him, so why should he have to listen to anyone?

Edited by David Dennison
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Posted
2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think Eddie has a point in that a lot of people that aren't hardcore Trumpers didn't like the immigration situation under Biden.  They didn't know shit about it, just like they don't know shit about this either.

They're broadly in favor of restricting immigration and deporting people, especially alleged criminals, and don't give a fuck how the sausage is made.

So the lawlessness here will have to be carefully presented.  The base gives zero fucks, the "middle types" don't know enough about law to care much.

 

did DoJ admit in the original court hearing that he was a citizen and/or here legally  ?

Posted
Just now, David Dennison said:

Basically that screaming louder isn't going to make a shit to an administration hell bent on not complying. Donald Trump knows he'll never be held accountable by Congress and the courts can't touch him, so why should he have to listen to anyone?

Why are you under the impression that any of this discussion is about convincing Donald Trump if anything?

Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Why are you under the impression that any of this discussion is about convincing Donald Trump if anything?

Don't you want to get Kilmar Abrego Garcia home? Don't you want to prevent others from being shipped off to El Salvador?

 

Edited by David Dennison
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

did DoJ admit in the original court hearing that he was a citizen and/or here legally  ?

He was not a citizen.  A "senior ICE Agent" named Robert Cerna stated that he was deported in error because of an immigration bar on deportation.  Based on that, the attorney for the government admitted on several occasions that the deportation was in error.

One thing I have learned that's sorta shocking, but maybe not really, is how easily revoked a legitimate immigration status (visa, etc.) can be revoked, even following the law.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Posted
Just now, David Dennison said:

Don't you want to get Abrego Garcia home? Don't you want to prevent others from being shipped off to El Salvador?

 

Schitts Creek Ok GIF by CBC

youre such a fucking beating dude.

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Posted
2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

He was not a citizen.  A "senior ICE Agent" named Robert Cerna stated that he was deported in error because of an immigration bar on deportation.

One thing I have learned that's sorta shocking, but maybe not really, is how easily revoked a legitimate immigration status (visa, etc.) can be revoked, even following the law.

Is he entitled to due process under the law? That’s the only question that matters here. And his legality is irrelevant to that question.

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Posted
23 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The convincable middle is pretty fucking dumb too.  See November 2024.

Which makes it easier to convince them as long as your strategy isn’t NYT Editorials, old people, prestige television stars, opaque nonsense like “opportunity economies” and SMS word walls 10x/day. 

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Posted
Just now, hobbes2702 said:

Then why are we even discussing his citizenship status? It’s irrelevant to the discussion. 

I agree. The messaging surrounding his status has to do with politics.

I'm just wondering if anyone has heard a viable solution to getting him out of El Salvador.

Posted
Just now, David Dennison said:

I agree. The messaging surrounding his status has to do with politics.

I'm just wondering if anyone has heard a viable solution to getting him out of El Salvador.

Which is why making this a political message is so stupid and the idea of convincing republicans is equally as stupid. 

Posted
19 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Which makes it easier to convince them as long as your strategy isn’t NYT Editorials, old people, prestige television stars, opaque nonsense like “opportunity economies” and SMS word walls 10x/day. 

Which is pretty much what I was saying.  

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

Dude is a pedantic moron best left on ignore.

Don't forget a weird Zionist.

e: That has expressed tacit support of college students being deported for what amounts to protected speech. Rich considering the thread we're in, for sure.

Edited by Brian Fantana
Posted
24 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Which makes it easier to convince them as long as your strategy isn’t NYT Editorials, old people, prestige television stars, opaque nonsense like “opportunity economies” and SMS word walls 10x/day. 

 

4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Which is pretty much what I was saying.  

You are not convincing them of anything because they aren't watching anything besides dear leader and Fox. It's time to knock heads.

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Posted
44 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

This isn’t about winning an election and thinking that way is why we get stupid milquetoast bullshit from so many Dems.

I'm confused.  If the courts can't make the Trump administration do a damn thing and you don't care about winning an election, what exactly did you have in mind?  You think we're going to spur the American people to action with the Abrego story, just based on the facts?  I don't know how you'd get to that conclusion looking back at the past 10 years (notwithstanding a handful of rowdy old folks in Iowa).

37 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Bingo.

Tell them the sweet, sweet, inflammatory lies that they need to hear.

FFS, these assholes have successfully messaged for decades that he gubmint/deep state is coming to snatch you up and take you to wal-mart jails in Bluebell ice cream trucks ("NO GESTAPO IN BASTROPO!")....we just need to send the same message, built on the ACTUAL snatch-and-grabs this regime is doing right now. 

They said they are coming for US citizens.  They will grab you on the street, in your home, in your car.  They will send you to a foreign prison without even letting you call your family or lawyer.  They will do it not because you've committed a crime, but just for what you think or say -- they told us that, too.  The communist authoritarians are here -- they snuck in by lying to you.  But you're too smart to fall for those lies now.  Patriotic Americans stop evil billionaires who kidnap people - y'all are patriotic Americans, right?  Protect yourselves now!  

This is where I'm at.  The story can't just be about Abrego, though.  Too many folks are still convinced that Trump is not "coming for them or theirs."  And unfortunately a lot of the middle still views the Dems as being hysterical. That's why I said they need to pick their battles here. There is absolutely a window to convince people that the danger that we've been talking about is really coming.  It needs to be personal, though.  

Posted
1 minute ago, Gap03 said:

This is where I'm at.  The story can't just be about Abrego, though.  Too many folks are still convinced that Trump is not "coming for them or theirs."  And unfortunately a lot of the middle still views the Dems as being hysterical. That's why I said they need to pick their battles here. There is absolutely a window to convince people that the danger that we've been talking about is really coming.  It needs to be personal, though.  

The first citizen that gets sent to the gulag that isn't in prison for murder or whatever will do it. Time will tell if it's far too late by then or not.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Yes.

Now what? I'm completely serious.

Yeah, I think what people are failing to understand is that there are and always have been varying levels of due process of law.

The highest level of due process is in a criminal case and failure to deliver it generally voids any conviction.  And that means basically indulging every procedure and inference in favor of the defendant.

Civil due process basically means notice and a hearing.  You don't get it, you get a do-over, not nullification of what just happened.

Look at the judgments of the Immigration Court and Board of Immigration Appeals. https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69777799/11/1/abrego-garcia-v-noem/ and https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69777799/11/2/abrego-garcia-v-noem/

Now, Abrego Garcia did have counsel, the same one he has now, but without benefit of some of the evidence he has now.

Giving him due process, and the others, may not change the outcome much.

Also, I'm not sure any district court anywhere is going to directly order Trump to bring him back.  They can maybe sniff all around it, and SCOTUS isn't going to let them do much more.  So, yeah, convincing Trump somehow it's in his interest to bring him back should be a consideration.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Posted

 

32 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Don't you want to get Kilmar Abrego Garcia home? Don't you want to prevent others from being shipped off to El Salvador?

 

Of course, yes.  But the odds of him even being still alive, never mind coming home are vanishingly small.   But you know what public anger can influence?  Whether more people are disappeared.  Whether people are willing to act as part of trump's gestapo.  Whether DOJ lawyers will continue to present lies in court.  Whether other people will stand up to the trump regime.  We all have an obligation to make clear that this is not okay with us.  Or we're no better than the good Germans.

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Posted
4 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

 

You are not convincing them of anything because they aren't watching anything besides dear leader and Fox. It's time to knock heads.

I'm not talking about Fox viewers.  I'm talking about the lesser numbskulls that swung the election because economy, immigration, and letting trans play on girls teams.

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Posted
2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, I think what people are failing to understand is that there are and always have been varying levels of due process of law.

The highest level of due process is in a criminal case and failure to deliver it generally voids any conviction.  And that means basically indulging every procedure and inference in favor of the defendant.

Civil due process basically means notice and a hearing.  You don't get it, you get a do-over, not nullification of what just happened.

Look at the judgments of the Immigration Court and Board of Immigration Appeals. https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69777799/11/1/abrego-garcia-v-noem/ and https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69777799/11/2/abrego-garcia-v-noem/

Now, Abrego Garcia did have counsel, the same one he has now, but without benefit of some of the evidence he has now.

Giving him due process, and the others, may not change the outcome much.

What are you talking about about? He didn't get anything before he was illegally sent to a prison in El Salvador.  Who gives a shit about the 2019 hearing at this point? He wasn't sent to prison as an outcome of that hearing. The due process violation is the recent shit. 

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Posted
9 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Don't forget a weird Zionist.

e: That has expressed tacit support of college students being deported for what amounts to protected speech. Rich considering the thread we're in, for sure.

Wait, what? You're thinking of someone else.

Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

What are you talking about about? He didn't get anything before he was illegally sent to a prison in El Salvador.  Who gives a shit about the 2019 hearing at this point? He wasn't sent to prison as an outcome of that hearing. The due process violation is the recent shit. 

Ever looked at most habeas opinions?  Granted, the district court that hears any habeas petition is likely to be highly pissed at the administration. I think his proceeding is styled habeas, so it's probably Xinis. But it's a civil thing, not a criminal thing.

The Immigration courts provide due process most of the time. Those are just examples of what works for civil due process in the immigration context.  It ain't all it's cracked up to be outside of criminal court.

Edited by TwiceHorn
Posted
1 hour ago, Ghost of NMAS said:

It’s quickly becoming obvious that convincing them will take violence, and probably a lot of it, 

Convincing?  We don't need no stinking convincing! 
Not only would it be impossible (even with violence), it is unnecessary. Trump is fucking his own supporters by killing the economy and taking away their benefits.  The only question is the degree of fucking before they start to notice and turn on him.

Posted
6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Wait, what? You're thinking of someone else.

You linkdumped about antisemitism on campuses and fucked off without comment from that thread in the middle of a conversation about students being deported, even after multiple posters called it out and asked you to explain yourself. That seemed like a pretty clear message to me. Regardless, that's not this thread topic and I will drop it.

Posted
2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You linkdumped about antisemitism on campuses and fucked off without comment from that thread in the middle of a conversation about students being deported, even after multiple posters called it out and asked you to explain yourself. That seemed like a pretty clear message to me. Regardless, that's not this thread topic and I will drop it.

No, I didn't. You have me confused with someone else. I'm on your side of that issue.

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Posted
27 minutes ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

These are good places to start

 

We need them to vote yes for medicare, medicaid, and social security cuts.  Heck, we should vote to cut it and then just blame it on them.   Use the same tactic.   Break their base.  

Posted
He was not a citizen.  A "senior ICE Agent" named Robert Cerna stated that he was deported in error because of an immigration bar on deportation.  Based on that, the attorney for the government admitted on several occasions that the deportation was in error.
One thing I have learned that's sorta shocking, but maybe not really, is how easily revoked a legitimate immigration status (visa, etc.) can be revoked, even following the law.

I have a client on an F1 student visa. He had a PENDING Class B possession of marijuana charge. He was notified last Friday that his. USA had been revoked and that he can appeal the determination in order to actually have some sort of hearing in a Federal (District, I think?) court.

Not CONVICTED…just pending, which is just ridiculous.
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Posted
1 minute ago, scottsins said:


I have a client on an F1 student visa. He had a PENDING Class B possession of marijuana charge. He was notified last Friday that his. USA had been revoked and that he can appeal the determination in order to actually have some sort of hearing in a Federal (District, I think?) court.

Not CONVICTED…just pending, which is just ridiculous.

Look I get this is where we all get our panties in a bunch about everything but conflating someone here on a visa getting a mj possession charge with someone who did jack shit getting fucking kidnapped and sent to a gulag are on two different planets. 

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Posted
Yeah, I think what people are failing to understand is that there are and always have been varying levels of due process of law.
The highest level of due process is in a criminal case and failure to deliver it generally voids any conviction.  And that means basically indulging every procedure and inference in favor of the defendant.
Civil due process basically means notice and a hearing.  You don't get it, you get a do-over, not nullification of what just happened.
Look at the judgments of the Immigration Court and Board of Immigration Appeals. https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69777799/11/1/abrego-garcia-v-noem/ and https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69777799/11/2/abrego-garcia-v-noem/
Now, Abrego Garcia did have counsel, the same one he has now, but without benefit of some of the evidence he has now.
Giving him due process, and the others, may not change the outcome much.
Also, I'm not sure any district court anywhere is going to directly order Trump to bring him back.  They can maybe sniff all around it, and SCOTUS isn't going to let them do much more.  So, yeah, convincing Trump somehow it's in his interest to bring him back should be a consideration.

On a related note, this John Oliver segment on immigration court from 7 years ago is just rage-inducing. Elementary school aged kids appearing in court with no guardian and no attorney:

Posted
Look I get this is where we all get our panties in a bunch about everything but conflating someone here on a visa getting a mj possession charge with someone who did jack shit getting fucking kidnapped and sent to a gulag are on two different planets. 

Cool. I was specifically replying to the last sentence of Twice’s post, giving an example of something that I think a lot of people would not ordinarily think likely to occur…since it hasn’t before.

The only conflating was in your brain.
Posted

It was less a direct response to you and more of a let's get back on track and talk about what's actually happening here not about the other stuff that's happening that has very little to do with deportations to el Salvador. 

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Posted
1 hour ago, scottsins said:


I have a client on an F1 student visa. He had a PENDING Class B possession of marijuana charge. He was notified last Friday that his. USA had been revoked and that he can appeal the determination in order to actually have some sort of hearing in a Federal (District, I think?) court.

Not CONVICTED…just pending, which is just ridiculous.

THAT actually doesn't surprise me.  But it does seem like a lot of immigrants with lawful status really are here legally at the sufferance of the US.

Kinda like probation.

Posted
1 hour ago, scottsins said:


On a related note, this John Oliver segment on immigration court from 7 years ago is just rage-inducing. Elementary school aged kids appearing in court with no guardian and no attorney:

 

 

 

Yeah, little or no right to counsel.  No right to confront witnesses.  Loose rules of evidence.  Burden is almost always on the alien. So on and so forth.



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