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Posted
3 minutes ago, JBJ said:

I'm not okay with it.  That's why I said this is the dumbest thing to have a constitutional crisis over. 

Even if the whole thing was manufactured by his lawyers to create this situation or something like it (which I do think the odds of are north of 0%), this isn't the right guy for it.

Perfect, you’re not ok with it. So we’ll see you marching with the rest of us to stop it?

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Posted
Just now, SubliminalHorn said:

Perfect, you’re not ok with it. So we’ll see you marching with the rest of us to stop it?

No, because this is still a dumb hill to die on.

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Posted
2 minutes ago, JBJ said:

No, because this is still a dumb hill to die on.

Due process is a dumb hill to die on? The fundamental right that you can not be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process is a dumb hill to die on? Wow

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Posted
4 minutes ago, Red Five said:

What?

Yeah.  Manufacturing cases happens all the time, and I don't have any issue with doing it.

All I'm sayung is that if his lawyers wanted him here to adjudicate whether he was being wrongfully deported, they could have kept him here.

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Posted
Just now, SubliminalHorn said:

Due process is a dumb hill to die on? The fundamental right that you can not be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process is a dumb hill to die on? Wow

This specifics of this case are a dumb hill to die on.  Please read my original post.  There's no actual remedy that's going to take place amd the guy himself is not a sympathetic figure.

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Posted
Just now, JBJ said:

This specifics of this case are a dumb hill to die on.  Please read my original post.  There's no actual remedy that's going to take place amd the guy himself is not a sympathetic figure.

Sympathetic figure? Too brown for you? Maybe if it was a white man with a wife who is a US citizen and an autistic US citizen son, then maybe he would be more sympathetic. 

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Posted
1 minute ago, SubliminalHorn said:

Sympathetic figure? Too brown for you? Maybe if it was a white man with a wife who is a US citizen and an autistic US citizen son, then maybe he would be more sympathetic. 

Not being an MS13 member and alleged child trafficker would help.

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Posted
1 minute ago, JBJ said:

Not being a Bulls fan trying to pick up some work at Home Depot an MS13 member and alleged child trafficker would help.

Fixed it for you, Karoline ...

Posted

@JBJ The regime manufactured this case with how they’re handling these deportations, and now it’s a Constitutional crisis because they are ignoring court orders.

Drop your loyalty to the GOP and pick up your loyalty to the Constitution. You're choosing Party over Country, bud. Take a look at what your Party has become and pay attention to what real conservatives like David Brooks and Bill Kristol are saying. 

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Posted
1 minute ago, bolverk said:

@JBJ The regime manufactured this case with how they’re handling these deportations, and now it’s a Constitutional crisis because they are ignoring court orders.

Drop your loyalty to the GOP and pick up your loyalty to the Constitution. You're choosing Party over Country, bud. Take a look at what your Party has become and pay attention to what real conservatives like David Brooks and Bill Kristol are saying. 

He's never had any.

Posted (edited)

I've already admitted Trump is wrong.  Now y'all admit this judge is also ignoring the lawful process.

Edited by JBJ
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Posted
8 minutes ago, JBJ said:

Not being an MS13 member and alleged child trafficker would help.

So you believe the disgraced cop that wrote that report about Abrego? The one that was soon after fired for misconduct? Yeah seems trustworthy. 
 

Don’t you realize that this administration WANTS to chip away at due process little by little. First let’s start with all these undesirable “gang” members. Who would stand with criminals and gang members! We gotta get them out! You only want criminals and gang members to stay if you hate America, and you don’t hate America, now, do you?

If they’re allowed to do this, THEY WILL NOT STOP. More people and groups will get caught up in it all because you were numbed to it and nodded along with them. You’re being played. Wake the fuck up man

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Posted
2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

As a reminder, this is JBJ's legal wisdom:

There's no point arguing with this idiot unless a client is going to pay you to do it. 

 

Yep. After lying about Abrego being a gang member, JBJ is going on ignore. He's just another authoritarian cult member who's willfully drunk the orange Kool-Aid. Not worth my or anyone else's time. I'd say he's useless, but that wouldn't be the truth. He's, in fact, just another fascist tool.

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Posted
Just now, SubliminalHorn said:

So you believe the disgraced cop that wrote that report about Abrego? The one that was soon after fired for misconduct? Yeah seems trustworthy. 
 

Don’t you realize that this administration WANTS to chip away at due process little by little. First let’s start with all these undesirable “gang” members. Who would stand with criminals and gang members! We gotta get them out! You only want criminals and gang members to stay if you hate America, and you don’t hate America, now, do you?

If they’re allowed to do this, THEY WILL NOT STOP. More people and groups will get caught up in it all because you were numbed to it and nodded along with them. You’re being played. Wake the fuck up man

I trust the judge's determination that there was sufficient evidence. I trust that his lawyers decision to not to further adjudicate it was for good reason.

I'm not really into conspiracy theories.  If a time comes to, sure, but this is not the hill to die on.

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Posted
Just now, JBJ said:

I trust the judge's determination that there was sufficient evidence. I trust that his lawyers decision to not to further adjudicate it was for good reason.

I'm not really into conspiracy theories.  If a time comes to, sure, but this is not the hill to die on.

And another judge determined him to be able to remain in the country as long as he abided by conditions. Which he did. I’m guessing you trusted that judge’s decision in the matter and are outraged that the administration ignored it and due process and kidnapped him to a prison. If you aren’t outraged, you really have no logical position here. 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, SubliminalHorn said:

And another judge determined him to be able to remain in the country as long as he abided by conditions. Which he did. I’m guessing you trusted that judge’s decision in the matter and are outraged that the administration ignored it and due process and kidnapped him to a prison. If you aren’t outraged, you really have no logical position here. 

I thought his deportation was held due to a rival gang in El Salvador harassing his family?  If I don't have all the facts, maybe I am wrong.

Edited by JBJ
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Posted
5 minutes ago, JBJ said:

I thought his deportation was held due to a rival gang fucking MS-13 in El Salvador harassing his family? 

So....do you MAYBE see the error in your thinking?  He was allowed to stay because he is at risk FROM MS-13, because he wouldn't join them.

It's like taking someone who fled the nazi regime, said "they were coming for my family if I didn't help them, so I fled," and saying "SEE!  HE'S A FUCKING NAZI!"  

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Posted
4 minutes ago, JBJ said:

I thought his deportation was held due to a rival gang in El Salvador harassing his family?  If I don't have all the facts, maybe I am wrong.

They said a gang, who are rivals of MS13, were harassing his family’s business. You know, how cartels and gangs are wont to do? Look, if the government has proof of him being a gang member and has committed crimes, bring it all forward to a court and present it. Which would be, and this is gonna blow your mind, due process!

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Posted
2 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

Maybe this is a dumb question, but why would members of MS-13 be picking up day laborer jobs at Home Depot? Don't they make money from, you know, gang stuff?

We have Sundays off, some of us pick up extra labor after church.......wait? Shit I've said too much.

Posted
3 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

Maybe this is a dumb question, but why would members of MS-13 be picking up day laborer jobs at Home Depot? Don't they make money from, you know, gang stuff?

Pshaw! Gangs and cartels know the real money is pouring cement for the racists out in Lakeway

Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, SubliminalHorn said:

They said a gang, who are rivals of MS13, were harassing his family’s business. You know, how cartels and gangs are wont to do? Look, if the government has proof of him being a gang member and has committed crimes, bring it all forward to a court and present it. Which would be, and this is gonna blow your mind, due process!

I'm not disagreeing.  His lawyers should have filed habeas and they could actually argue that and halt his deportation at the same time.

Why do you suppose they chose not to?  Incompetence?

Edited by JBJ
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Posted
Just now, JBJ said:

I'm not disagreeing.  His lawyers should have filed habeas and they could actually argue that and halt his deportation at the same time.

Did they even know where he was before he was deported?

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, SubliminalHorn said:

Did they even know where he was before he was deported?

Yes.  He was being held in Texas, I believe.  They even amended their initial filing before he was deported, so they had time to file a separate case.

Edited by JBJ
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Posted
1 minute ago, JBJ said:

Yes.  He was being held in Texas, I believe.  They even amended their initial filing before he was deported, so they had time to file a separate case.

But the habeas filing had to be made in the jurisdiction where he was being held, and ICE kept moving him so his attorneys didn't know where that was ... you see the problem?

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Gap03 said:

But the habeas filing had to be made in the jurisdiction where he was being held, and ICE kept moving him so his attorneys didn't know where that was ... you see the problem?

You cannot move someone across state lines without prior notice and cannot move them at all once habeus is filed.

Edited by JBJ
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Posted
38 minutes ago, JBJ said:

I thought his deportation was held due to a rival gang in El Salvador harassing his family?  If I don't have all the facts, maybe I am wrong.

Oh, after several libelous allegations of specific facts you acknowledge you don't actually know what the fuck you're talking about?

Holy shit, we're making progress.

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Posted
12 minutes ago, fuggled said:

Man, there are a few things you have to keep in mind here.

First, the judge that determined Abrego Garcia is MS-13 was an immigration judge.  This was not a criminal case.  The police/district attorney in Prince George did not bring any charges against him.  Immigration judges/courts are very different from criminal courts.  They are making administrative determinations.

Second, the hearing where this determination occurred was a bond hearing by the immigration judge.  It was to determine if he should be granted bail or held until his immigration case is complete.  In this situation, the standard is that ICE/DHS claims Abrego Garcia is a threat or flight risk.  It is up to Abrego Garcia to prove to the judge that he is not a threat to the community.  It is a very high bar putting the onus on the defendant to prove a negative.  And the judge is completely reasonable in being cautious and not granting release.  But it is a very different standard than anything we'd see in a criminal case.

Third, Fox News, Pam Bondi and the White House keep talking about "two judges determined he's MS-13".  The second judge was handling the appeal of the bond hearing.  Still an immigration judge, still not a criminal case.  In this appeal, the judge is not tasked with determining whether he's MS-13.  Instead, the appeal judge has a narrow task of determining whether they original judge clearly erred in making the bond decision.  Denying the appeal just means the judge determines that there was some evidence originally presented and the original judge was being reasonably cautious.

I'm aware of all this.  I'm not the one here spreading misinfo about habeas whack-a-mole and his deportation status.

Since people are logging alts to neg me, I'll leave this "shithole" again.  I'd love if y'all considered these two things:

1) This is actually the dumbest possible potential constitutional crisis.  Mostly due to politics on both sides being more important than legal procedure. 

2) There was an actual solution to this.  Abrego could very easily not be deported right now and he could actually be having the trial everyone thinks he should be having (and that's due to Trump and not really due to the judge either - not his responsibility but he definitely should have told the lawyers to also file for habeas, it was clear in their original filing that they intended to).

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Posted
25 minutes ago, JBJ said:

Yes.  He was being held in Texas, I believe.  They even amended their initial filing before he was deported, so they had time to file a separate case.

You have a link outlining any of this?  Pretty sure nobody knew where he was until his wife identified his tattoos in photos taken in El Salvador.

Posted
1 minute ago, JBJ said:

I'm aware of all this.  I'm not the one here spreading misinfo about habeas whack-a-mole and his deportation status.

Since people are logging alts to neg me, I'll leave this "shithole" again.  I'd love if y'all considered these two things:

1) This is actually the dumbest possible potential constitutional crisis.  Mostly due to politics on both sides being more important than legal procedure. 

2) There was an actual solution to this.  Abrego could very easily not be deported right now and he could actually be having the trial everyone thinks he should be having (and that's due to Trump and not really due to the judge either - not his responsibility but he definitely should have told the lawyers to also file for habeas, it was clear in their original filing that they intended to).

You're aware of shit you fucking cunt. You're talking out of your ass and lying. THERE WAS A FUCKING COURT ORDER THAT SAID HE COULD NOT BE DEPORTED. What about this confuses you? Why do you think habeas is magical when fucking court orders are being ignored? 

1 minute ago, fuggled said:

You have a link outlining any of this?  Pretty sure nobody knew where he was until his wife identified his tattoos in photos taken in El Salvador.

He is literally making shit up because he is a fucking shit stain. 

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Posted
1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

Oh, after several libelous allegations of specific facts you acknowledge you don't actually know what the fuck you're talking about?

Holy shit, we're making progress.

Pretty sure Subliminal admitted he mistated that in his original post.

Posted

Until SCOTUS stuck its dick in this beehive, habeas actually wasn't considered the appropriate remedy to contest a wrongful removal because habeas is for contesting wrongful detention, which Abrego Garcia's attorneys weren't contesting. SCOTUS intervened to try to save Trump from himself and in the process butchered the applicable law, something they fucking love to do these days.

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Posted

JBJ is digging in his heels a bit, but this is what I'm talking about when ideologues start running people off. His first post isn't that inflammatory and not something a ton of people disagree with. 

I also think this is a shitty hill to die on, but unlike JBJ do think it's a required hill to die on. 

In all honesty if he's out of the gulag and just in El Salvador as a free man everyone should let cooler heads prevail and just fucking drop it. It sucks for him, but also there's a part of this where the stance of "fuck him he's not some saint who was working hard to naturalize or something." Is valid, I'm not saying I agree with it, but it's definitely a not absurd take. 

I personally would like him to come back and have his due process, ultimately I do believe he will get deported anyway, but getting out of the gulag is the main sticking point for me for this case, and all the others. 

Unfortunately this case doesn't call into question the legality of the gulag, just the means of which he was deported there etc. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JBJ said:

I trust the judge's determination that there was sufficient evidence. I trust that his lawyers decision to not to further adjudicate it was for good reason.

I'm not really into conspiracy theories.  If a time comes to, sure, but this is not the hill to die on.

Well a big part of that is what tools are available to the lawyer to call bullshit on the government when they do things like rely on some shithead informant.

Unlike a criminal case, there isn't a Brady or Giglio burden on the government to produce exculpatory evidence or reveal things destroying the credibility of their informants and witnesses.  Nor, do I think, is there much in the way of civil discovery for the defendant's lawyer to test the government's evidence.

At some point, Abrego Garcia is probably going to receive due process in a US District court, apparently USDJ Paula Xinis', that is righteously pissed at the government and is also receiving the benefit of a bunch of investigative journalists doing discovery for him for free.

But those future deportees are going to receive pretty half-ass civil due process a lot like those pretty shitty Immigration Court opinions I linked above.  And the Supreme Court is probably going to be fine with that.  And probably any Supreme Court for the last 50-75 years would be ok with it too, not just Chief Johnny and the Sondericht.

A lot of what fuggled said.  Habeas Corpus may provide a further backstop on half-ass rulings by half-ass immigration judges in a half-ass forum.  But if you know anything about the usual habeas petition by a criminal defendant (complicated by the fact that a whole ton of them are bullshit), that's not going to give you much comfort that justice will be done.  

 

Edited by TwiceHorn
Posted
1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

Until SCOTUS stuck its dick in this beehive, habeas actually wasn't considered the appropriate remedy to contest a wrongful removal because habeas is for contesting wrongful detention, which Abrego Garcia's attorneys weren't contesting. SCOTUS intervened to try to save Trump from himself and in the process butchered the applicable law, something they fucking love to do these days.

They also are used to contest movements of prisoners in general, not just deportations.



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