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Posted
1 hour ago, JBJ said:

No, because this is still a dumb hill to die on.

This is some breathtaking stupidity. 

No words suffice for your comment blaming an illegally deported man for not telling his lawyers to file habeas. 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, immamac said:

JBJ is digging in his heels a bit, but this is what I'm talking about when ideologues start running people off. His first post isn't that inflammatory and not something a ton of people disagree with. 

I also think this is a shitty hill to die on, but unlike JBJ do think it's a required hill to die on. 

In all honesty if he's out of the gulag and just in El Salvador as a free man everyone should let cooler heads prevail and just fucking drop it. It sucks for him, but also there's a part of this where the stance of "fuck him he's not some saint who was working hard to naturalize or something." Is valid, I'm not saying I agree with it, but it's definitely a not absurd take. 

I personally would like him to come back and have his due process, ultimately I do believe he will get deported anyway, but getting out of the gulag is the main sticking point for me for this case, and all the others. 

Unfortunately this case doesn't call into question the legality of the gulag, just the means of which he was deported there etc. 

Forget it.  I was meaning to leave anyway. I'm feeling sick at work, but this clearly isn't the place to discuss this topic. 

Edited by JBJ
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Posted
1 minute ago, JBJ said:

Forget it.  I was meaning to leave anyway. I'm feeling sick at work, but this clearly isn't the place to discuss this topic. 

Admit that you're wrong about the facts, the law, and the process. You were talking out your ass and got scolded for it. 

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Hookah Horns said:

This is some breathtaking stupidity. 

No words suffice for your comment blaming an illegally deported man for not telling his lawyers to file habeas. 

I believe it was on purpose.  They likely couldn't proceed with this case because the habeas case would happen first.  If Abrego wasn't aware of this, his lawyers should be the ones in the Salvadorian prison.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, JBJ said:

I believe it was on purpose.  They likely couldn't proceed with this case because the habeas case would happen first.  If Abrego wasn't aware of this, his lawyers should be the ones in the Salvadorian prison.

There was a fucking court order not to deport him. Why the fuck do you think habeas would be any different? What the fuck is wrong with you? 

Edited by Dahobbs
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Posted

it's rare that someone's position is so unbelievably wrong?...stupid?...nonsensical? that I can't even formulate a response. I can't even think of the word to describe it.

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Posted
1 minute ago, JBJ said:

I believe it was on purpose.  They likely couldn't proceed with this case because the habeas case would happen first.  If Abrego wasn't aware of this, his lawyers should be the ones in the Salvadorian prison.

One other thought here...it's pretty weak to blame this guy and his lawyer for creating a constitutional crisis by not moving fast enough.  The government ignored his court ordered protection from removal and then they ignored a court order to stop deportations, turn the plan around and bring people back.  Why should anyone expect that a new/different filing would change anything?

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Posted
1 hour ago, JBJ said:

Not being an MS13 member and alleged child trafficker would help.

You seriously believe this guy is in MS-13? 

image.jpeg.1969b7d943ce5fb55251f0af53b93dd8.jpeg

Why? Because he has a Bulls hat? 

image.jpeg.f0d6fe97b5f764216c13c3441ddf00e1.jpeg

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Posted
1 minute ago, Hookah Horns said:

You seriously believe this guy is in MS-13? 

image.jpeg.1969b7d943ce5fb55251f0af53b93dd8.jpeg

Why? Because he has a Bulls hat? 

image.jpeg.f0d6fe97b5f764216c13c3441ddf00e1.jpeg

gangsters who shop at Ross?

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Posted
1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

There was a fucking court order not to deport him. Why the fuck do you think habeas would be any different? What the fuck is wrong with you? 

Different case I believe. There's 2 cases and it's confusing as fuck. 

Also I think the case is exactly as important as you are saying it is, it just sucks that it's one that is based on a man with questionable residency/status. We all have come to find out that he was "allowed to stay",  but come on this guy in no way was above the board legal and not problematic etc. Its fucking messy a lot messier than if he had a green card or a valid long term visa etc. 

Posted
13 minutes ago, immamac said:

JBJ is digging in his heels a bit, but this is what I'm talking about when ideologues start running people off. His first post isn't that inflammatory and not something a ton of people disagree with. 

I also think this is a shitty hill to die on, but unlike JBJ do think it's a required hill to die on. 

In all honesty if he's out of the gulag and just in El Salvador as a free man everyone should let cooler heads prevail and just fucking drop it. It sucks for him, but also there's a part of this where the stance of "fuck him he's not some saint who was working hard to naturalize or something." Is valid, I'm not saying I agree with it, but it's definitely a not absurd take. 

I personally would like him to come back and have his due process, ultimately I do believe he will get deported anyway, but getting out of the gulag is the main sticking point for me for this case, and all the others. 

Unfortunately this case doesn't call into question the legality of the gulag, just the means of which he was deported there etc. 

Are we sure he didn't go right back into the gulag after his meeting with Van Hollen?

Posted
1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

There was a fucking court order not to deport him. Why the fuck do you think habeas would be any different? What the fuck is wrong with you? 

I agree.  I believe deporting someone under the A/S Act would actually take immigration courts out of the picture, but I'm not sure it should apply to current orders.  That's ultimately what this actual case is about, right?

Posted
2 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Are we sure he didn't go right back into the gulag after his meeting with Van Hollen?

We are not sure. 

Posted
12 minutes ago, immamac said:

JBJ is digging in his heels a bit, but this is what I'm talking about when ideologues start running people off. 

Ideology really has nothing to do with this. 

12 minutes ago, immamac said:

I also think this is a shitty hill to die on, but unlike JBJ do think it's a required hill to die on. 

In all honesty if he's out of the gulag and just in El Salvador as a free man everyone should let cooler heads prevail and just fucking drop it. It sucks for him, but also there's a part of this where the stance of "fuck him he's not some saint who was working hard to naturalize or something." Is valid, I'm not saying I agree with it, but it's definitely a not absurd take. 

Why is this a shitty hill to die on? 

Where did you get the idea Garcia is out of the Gulag? Because they let him out to meet the senator and let him wear what he was kidnapped in for the pictures? Bukkake said in a tweet that he's remaining in their custody. 

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Posted
6 minutes ago, immamac said:

Different case I believe. There's 2 cases and it's confusing as fuck. 

Also I think the case is exactly as important as you are saying it is, it just sucks that it's one that is based on a man with questionable residency/status. We all have come to find out that he was "allowed to stay",  but come on this guy in no way was above the board legal and not problematic etc. Its fucking messy a lot messier than if he had a green card or a valid long term visa etc. 

No way he wasn't problematic, what are you talking about?

You're talking like this whole thing is about whether he should have been here. By focusing on the fact that he didn't come here legally you're implicitly excusing the total lack of legal process, at least to some degree. 

Would you be so mealy mouthed about summary executions of murder suspects who "clearly were not above board and not problematic." Well, this is bad, but it's messy. This would be a bigger deal if there was no indication of involvement in criminal activity...

Posted
Just now, Hookah Horns said:

No way he wasn't problematic, what are you talking about?

You're talking like this whole thing is about whether he should have been here. By focusing on the fact that he didn't come here legally you're implicitly excusing the total lack of legal process, at least to some degree. 

Would you be so mealy mouthed about summary executions of murder suspects who "clearly were not above board and not problematic." Well, this is bad, but it's messy. This would be a bigger deal if there was no indication of involvement in criminal activity...

No I'm saying that public fucking opinion matters as much as you want it to be completely ignored and have everyone not give a shit. 

I don't want him or anyone in el salvador or deported without due process. Stop this nonsense. 

Posted
Just now, immamac said:

No I'm saying that public fucking opinion matters as much as you want it to be completely ignored and have everyone not give a shit. 

I don't want him or anyone in el salvador or deported without due process. Stop this nonsense. 

Honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I want everyone to not give a shit? 

Posted
Just now, Dahobbs said:

SAME CASE. 

He was originally here illegally but protected from deportation because of the danger of returning to El Salvador. He left El Salvador as a teenager because of those danger. When he was picked up by ICE in 2019, he was originally detained without bond because of the gang affiliation allegations. The ultimate result of those proceeding was a court order protecting him from removal and thus was a legal resident of the US from that point onward. Outside of the allegations from an officer and an unnamed informant in the bond proceeding, there was zero evidence he was ever a member of a gang and he has not been charged or convicted of any criminal wrong doing. He was arrested on March 13 of the this in Maryland. He was transported at some point to a holding facility in Texas. And then on March 15 (2 days after he was picked up), he was one of the people in the planes sent to El Salvador.

@JBJ there was no notice, no opportunity to file habeas, no knowledge of where he was. In two days he went from legal resident of Maryland to prisoner in El Salvador. 

Fuck anyone excusing this. Fuck anyone saying we shouldn't be fucking outraged. Fuck anyone that says we should drop this. This is end of the country shit. If the government can do this, if it can get away with ignoring court orders, sending people to a foreign prison (and fucking paying for it), and then claim complete lack of ability to right those wrongs, then it can literally disappear anyone. No notice, no remedy, no law. This is fucking serious. More serious than a fucking war because more is at fucking stake here.  

Yeah I agree, I'm saying that there are a ton of people who don't care about your whole first paragraph because it's a long paragraph and people are fucking stupid. 

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Hookah Horns said:

He did. 

That's what I thought. So he wasn't simply deported to El Salvador where he can live freely. He's back in the hellhole known as CECOT.

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Posted
Just now, Hookah Horns said:

Honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I want everyone to not give a shit? 

Yeah, you want everyone to just not care what the circumstance around this is. 

You just want them to lose their minds on the purity of the case. 

Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, JBJ said:

I agree.  I believe deporting someone under the A/S Act would actually take immigration courts out of the picture, but I'm not sure it should apply to current orders.  That's ultimately what this actual case is about, right?

No. It isn't about that. It is about whether the government can ignore the rule of law. It is about whether due process exists and matters. 

Again, the government could use the exact same process and arguments on you, today. 

Edited by Dahobbs
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Posted

Some of you must live in small fucking bubbles or something. I'm not defending JBJ, I'm not defending the deportations, I'm not defending the idiots who can't fucking understand how important the core case is. 

I'm saying all these things matter and are all part of what the end result will ultimately be. 

Theres obviously a lot more going on than just a black and white case and simple actions. Stop oversimplifying everything into fucking outrage. 

Posted

Someome show me where his lawyers alleged there was no notice.  I've seen this said multiple times.  His lawyers certainly knew to file this case while he was being moved.

Posted
9 minutes ago, immamac said:

No I'm saying that public fucking opinion matters as much as you want it to be completely ignored and have everyone not give a shit. 

I don't want him or anyone in el salvador or deported without due process. Stop this nonsense. 

Public opinion is shaped by our media, who are doing everything they can to ignore and normalize this stuff. They are as big a problem as anything else right now.

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Posted
Just now, Pam Cummings said:

Public opinion is shaped by our media, who are doing everything they can to ignore and normalize this stuff. They are as big a problem as anything else right now.

No, public opinion is reinforced by the media, that's what you are missing. People WANT this guy deported illegally and WANT it to be problematic. Look at the white house tweet. 

The problem right now is humoring these people who are clearly too fucking stupid to function. 

Looks like @Huckleberry said what I was saying, I just don't agree that dogpiling is the right way to wake these people up and keep them around. The way this goes down is you run people off, running people off accomplishes nothing. 

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, fuggled said:

Man, there are a few things you have to keep in mind here.

First, the judge that determined Abrego Garcia is MS-13 was an immigration judge.  This was not a criminal case.  The police/district attorney in Prince George did not bring any charges against him.  Immigration judges/courts are very different from criminal courts.  They are making administrative determinations.

Second, the hearing where this determination occurred was a bond hearing by the immigration judge.  It was to determine if he should be granted bail or held until his immigration case is complete.  In this situation, the standard is that ICE/DHS claims Abrego Garcia is a threat or flight risk.  It is up to Abrego Garcia to prove to the judge that he is not a threat to the community.  It is a very high bar putting the onus on the defendant to prove a negative.  And the judge is completely reasonable in being cautious and not granting release.  But it is a very different standard than anything we'd see in a criminal case.

Third, Fox News, Pam Bondi and the White House keep talking about "two judges determined he's MS-13".  The second judge was handling the appeal of the bond hearing.  Still an immigration judge, still not a criminal case.  In this appeal, the judge is not tasked with determining whether he's MS-13.  Instead, the appeal judge has a narrow task of determining whether they original judge clearly erred in making the bond decision.  Denying the appeal just means the judge determines that there was some evidence originally presented and the original judge was being reasonably cautious.

Too many words. 
 

@JBJ - the White House and president are defying the law under the constitution and an order of the United States Supreme Court. Either you oppose that or you want a king. Which is it?

 

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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Posted

 

2 minutes ago, immamac said:

No, public opinion is reinforced by the media, that's what you are missing. People WANT this guy deported illegally and WANT it to be problematic. Look at the white house tweet. 

This was kind of the point of my original post.  This specific case is actually stupid all around.  Democrats want it to look outrageous, Trump wants Democrats to look crazy.  Both have been successful depending on what echo chamber you step into.

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Posted
3 minutes ago, JBJ said:

Someome show me where his lawyers alleged there was no notice.  I've seen this said multiple times.  His lawyers certainly knew to file this case while he was being moved.

What notice would there have been? He was on a plane within 48 hours of being picked up. Have you seen anyone from the government claim they gave any notice prior to arresting him or deporting him? Here is the complaint(https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69777799/1/abrego-garcia-v-noem/), read it yourself before fucking spouting off on shit you know nothing about. Oh, and maybe you can find anywhere the government said it gave proper notice of his detention or gave his family any ability to file a habeas action as it moved him multiple times across the country prior to shipping him to El Salvador. I'll wait. 
 

Quote

 

49. While driving with his son A.A.V. in the backseat, Plaintiff Abrego Garcia was pulled over by ICE officers acting at the direction and under the supervision of Defendant Baker’s predecessor in office.

50. One ICE officer, who identified himself as part of Homeland Security Investigations, told Plaintiff Abrego Garcia that his “status has changed.” Within minutes, Plaintiff Abrego Garcia was handcuffed and detained in one of several ICE vehicles on the scene. Plaintiff Vasquez Sura was called and instructed to appear at their location within ten minutes to get her five-year old son, A.A.V.; otherwise, the ICE officers threatened that the child would be handed over to Child Protective Services. See Ex. B (Declaration of Plaintiff Vasquez Sura).

51. After Plaintiff Vasquez Sura arrived at the scene, she was able to briefly talk with Plaintiff Abrego Garcia, who appeared confused, distraught, and crying. Moments later, Plaintiff Abrego Garcia was driven away. No explanation was provided to Jennifer as to why her husband was detained, where he was going, or what was happening. Id.

52. Almost immediately after Plaintiff Vasquez Sura left with her son A.A.V., she began to try to locate Plaintiff Abrego Garcia through the online ICE Detainee Locator system and by calling various immigration detention centers and facilities. It appeared that between Wednesday, March 12, and Saturday, March 15, Plaintiff Abrego Garcia was moved to various different locations across the country. See Ex. B (Declaration of Plaintiff Vasquez Sura).

53. The evening after his arrest, Plaintiff Vasquez Sura received a call from Plaintiff Abrego Garcia. At that time, it appeared that he was in Baltimore. During that conversation, Plaintiff Abrego Garcia informed Plaintiff Vasquez Sura that he was being questioned about gang affiliations. He repeatedly informed his interviewers that he was never a gang member and had no gang affiliations. He was shown several photos where he appeared in public, and asked about other people in those photos, but was unable to provide any information on them, as he did not know them or anything about them. Plaintiff Abrego Garcia also told his wife that he had been told that he would go before an immigration judge and then be released. See Ex. B (Declaration of Plaintiff Vasquez Sura).

54. Plaintiff Vasquez Sura received a call from Plaintiff Abrego Garcia on the evening of March 13. Plaintiff Abrego Garcia told his wife that he believed he was in Louisiana, but was not sure because he had been moved around so many times. Plaintiff Abrego Garcia indicated to his wife that he was very confused. However, he was still being assured that he would be brought before an immigration judge soon. See Ex. B (Declaration of Plaintiff Vasquez Sura).

55. In an attempt to ascertain his actual location and find further information about his arrest and detention, Plaintiff Vasquez Sura called different detention centers, trying to speak to someone. She recalls one brief conversation where she was told that “El Salvador was asking for him.” Her attempts to protest by saying that he had won protection from being removed to El Salvador fell on deaf ears. See Ex. B (Declaration of Plaintiff Vasquez Sura).

56. Around 11:00 AM on Saturday, March 15, 2025, Plaintiff Vasquez Sura received her last call from Plaintiff Abrego Garcia. During that conversation, Plaintiff Abrego Garcia informed her that he was being held by ICE at the East Hidalgo Detention Center in La Villa, Texas. See Ex. B (Declaration of Plaintiff Vasquez Sura).

57. Plaintiff Abrego Garcia then relayed that he was told that he was being deported to El Salvador. With a sense of urgency, he asked his wife to contact his mother so their family could get him from “CECOT,” as that is where he was told they were sending him.

58. Since that conversation, Plaintiff Vasquez Sura has not had any further contact with Plaintiff Abrego Garcia. See Ex. B (Declaration of Plaintiff Vasquez Sura).

59. The following day, on Sunday, March 16, Ms. Vasquez Sura was sent a photo from a news article discussing the deportation of alleged Venezuelan gang members that were deported without a hearing. The photo showed men kneeling on the ground, with their shaved heads bowed and their arms over their head. Their faces were not visible. Upon inspection, Jennifer identified one of these men as Plaintiff Abrego Garcia based on her husband’s distinctive tattoos and two scars on his head. See Ex. D (CECOT photos).

60. For the next few days, the ICE Detainee Locator continued to indicate that Plaintiff Abrego Garcia was located at the East Hidalgo Detention Center, even though staff at that detention center told Plaintiff Vasquez Sura that he had left on Saturday. See Ex. B (Declaration of Plaintiff Vasquez Sura). (Now, Plaintiff Abrego Garcia no longer appears in the ICE Detainee Locator.)

61. Watching the news, Plaintiff Vasquez Sura was horrified to see more photos of CECOT prisoners that included her husband, and a video where Plaintiff Abrego Garcia was frogwalked through the CECOT prison. Plaintiff Abrego Garcia’s family subsequently hired a lawyer in El Salvador, who has confirmed that Plaintiff Abrego Garcia is, in fact, being held at CECOT. The lawyer has ascertained that to date, there are no known criminal charges levied against Plaintiff Abrego Garcia in El Salvador either.

62. ICE and DHS took no steps to reopen the removal case of Plaintiff Abrego Garcia, nor to rescind his order of withholding of removal. See Ex. E (immigration court “Automated Case Information” page, showing no activity since October 10, 2019).

 

 

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Posted
38 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Are we sure he didn't go right back into the gulag after his meeting with Van Hollen?

If he didn't, we would've heard that he called his wife and that he's personally spoken to his attorneys. If not that specific gulag, he's still imprisoned somewhere in ES.

Posted
2 minutes ago, JBJ said:

 

This was kind of the point of my original post.  This specific case is actually stupid all around.  Democrats want it to look outrageous, Trump wants Democrats to look crazy.  Both have been successful depending on what echo chamber you step into.

IT FUCKING IS OUTRAGEOUS. Stop being a willfully ignorant twat. 

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Posted
5 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Too many words. 
 

@JBJ - the White House and president are defying the law under the constitution and an order of the United States Supreme Court. Either you oppose that or you want a king. Which is it?

 

He opposes it, but it isn't a big deal because it doesn't affect him personally (yet). I'm in no fucking mood to coddle fuck sticks like that.  

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, JBJ said:

Someome show me where his lawyers alleged there was no notice.  I've seen this said multiple times.  His lawyers certainly knew to file this case while he was being moved.

I think you're conflating the JGG case before Boasberg with this one.

SCOTUS in JGG admitted that all of these deportees were entitled to due process, but also said habeas was the exclusive remedy. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a931_2c83.pdf

This is a habeas case where it is alleged that he received no formal notice and his wife found he was deported to CECOT by recognizing his photo and tattoos.  And not only did he not receive notice, he was barred from removal by an immigration court. https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69777799/abrego-garcia-v-noem/#entry-57

There are multiple bases for relief in Abrego Garcia.  SCOTUS specifically found that his admitted erroneous deportation was sufficient grounds to sustain the district court's order that the government "facilitate and effectuate" his return.

 

 

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Posted
6 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Too many words. 
 

@JBJ - the White House and president are defying the law under the constitution and an order of the United States Supreme Court. Either you oppose that or you want a king. Which is it?

I've answered this several times.  It's not okay.  It's on purpose, too.  You guys want me to be something that I'm not.

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Posted
1 minute ago, JBJ said:

I've answered this several times.  It's not okay.  It's on purpose, too.  You guys want me to be something that I'm not.

You want to be something you are not, a good person. A good person doesn't say this isn't that big of a deal. A good person doesn't say this is a bad hill to die on. Either educate yourself and wake up or you'll be exactly what people here are saying you are. 

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Posted
1 minute ago, JBJ said:

I've answered this several times.  It's not okay.  It's on purpose, too.  You guys want me to be something that I'm not.

Informed?

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Posted
1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

You want to be something you are not, a good person. A good person doesn't say this isn't that big of a deal. A good person doesn't say this is a bad hill to die on. Either educate yourself and wake up or you'll be exactly what people here are saying you are. 

This is where you are fucked up. You aren't the judge of good people etc and he's not on the wrong side of the fight.

Not everyone is a fucking villain. 

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JBJ said:

Forget it.  I was meaning to leave anyway. I'm feeling sick at work, but this clearly isn't the place to discuss this topic. 

Cause you’re wrong on the facts and wrong on the effect this has. And imma is wrong as well. So fuck off and stay wrong. Hobbes up there explained it out well and you had no reply. 

Edited by achooloco
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Posted
2 minutes ago, immamac said:

This is where you are fucked up. You aren't the judge of good people etc and he's not on the wrong side of the fight.

Not everyone is a fucking villain. 

For violating the constitution and holding any water for disappearing people into a prison hell hole, yeah, I’m good calling yall villains. 

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Posted
55 minutes ago, immamac said:

Different case I believe. There's 2 cases and it's confusing as fuck. 

Also I think the case is exactly as important as you are saying it is, it just sucks that it's one that is based on a man with questionable residency/status. We all have come to find out that he was "allowed to stay",  but come on this guy in no way was above the board legal and not problematic etc. Its fucking messy a lot messier than if he had a green card or a valid long term visa etc. 

wrong. He was granted asylum, nothing questionable at all about it. He is a legal resident, full stop. If you don’t agree you’re wrong and you need to educate yourself 

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Posted

I'm not wrong about fucking anything. In case you forgot I have a responsibility to the community to keep it fucking going. 

I'm not carrying water for shit, I'm adding context to the fucking situation beyond a small slice that everyone wants to focus on a villify everyone outside of that slice regardless of context. 

Just now, achooloco said:

wrong. He was granted asylum, nothing questionable at all about it. He is a legal resident, full stop. If you don’t agree you’re wrong and you need to educate yourself 

I don't give a fuck about his status personally, I'm saying A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER FUCKING PEOPLE DO

Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think you're conflating the JGG case before Boasberg with this one.

SCOTUS in JGG admitted that all of these deportees were entitled to due process, but also said habeas was the exclusive remedy. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a931_2c83.pdf

This is a habeas case where it is alleged that he received no formal notice and his wife found he was deported to CECOT by recognizing his photo and tattoos.  And not only did he not receive notice, he was barred from removal by an immigration court. https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69777799/abrego-garcia-v-noem/#entry-57

I actually am as multiple discussions are going on simultaneously.  He was in El Salvador already when the case was filed and it actually is habeas.  This is more like the Quintero Chacon case. 

 

Edited by JBJ


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