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Posted (edited)

Xinis taking no shit from Ensign whatsoever.

Going to have two weeks of expedited discovery of government officials, no holidays, no sleep til Brooklyn.

Government will have the opportunity to object to discovery, but pretty clear how that's going to go, and it tends toward unappealable.

Gonna start with the people that gave affidavits.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Posted
1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

Xinis taking no shit from Ensign whatsoever.

Going to have two weeks of expedited discovery of government officials, no holidays, no sleep til Brooklyn.

Government will have the opportunity to object to discovery, but pretty clear how that's going to go, and it tends toward unappealable.

Great. Really awesome stuff that still does nothing to get the guy home anytime soon.

If this is really all that can be done to enforce basic due process protections then there is no due process protection. This country is dead.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Great. Really awesome stuff that still does nothing to get the guy home anytime soon.

If this is really all that can be done to enforce basic due process protections then there is no due process protection. This country is dead.

While your complaint is accurate, I think Judge Xinis is playing this just right.  She's going to let the plaintiffs gather evidence of all this bullshit and make narrowly crafted orders that punish people and the administration rather than lose her temper and order something that might be appealable and easily struck down.

She makes the point that everyone is talking in "generalities:" he's not back, due process, executive power/foreign relations/national security, and that's not really helpful.

One of the problems is, we don't know what level of due process is really accorded to non-citizens.  Clearly, the Supreme Court said "some due process," so that much is settled.

For a US Citizen or a criminal defendant (citizen or not), failure to afford due process often results in nullification of the conviction.  Outside that context, we don't know what the result of failure to afford due process is.  Seems a "do-over" at minimum, but that doesn't necessarily mean Abrego stays.

Edited by TwiceHorn
Posted
5 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Great. Really awesome stuff that still does nothing to get the guy home anytime soon.

If this is really all that can be done to enforce basic due process protections then there is no due process protection. This country is dead.

I mean she is a judge not a ninja ranger. So she has to do court room stuff.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

While your complaint is accurate, I think Judge Xinis is playing this just right.  She's going to let the plaintiffs gather evidence of all this bullshit and make narrowly crafted orders that punish people and the administration rather than lose her temper and order something that might be appealable and easily struck down.

She makes the point that everyone is talking in "generalities:" he's not back, due process, executive power/foreign relations/national security, and that's not really helpful.

I mean I get it but none of that matters.

Denied the most basic of rights in this country and this is what it takes for any level of remedy. Clearly our laws are worthless.

3 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

I mean she is a judge not a ninja ranger. So she has to do court room stuff.

Has nothing to do with my point. This isn’t someone trying to overturn a wrongful conviction. This is someone who got black bagged by this country.

Edited by hobbes2702
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Posted
6 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

For a US Citizen or a criminal defendant (citizen or not), failure to afford due process often results in nullification of the conviction.  Outside that context, we don't know what the result of failure to afford due process is.  Seems a "do-over" at minimum, but that doesn't necessarily mean Abrego stays.

Conviction? Dude hasn't even been charged with anything formally. He's been accused of being a gang member by a sex pest dirty cop.

Of course, in the Trump world, a sex pest IS a pretty authoritative source I suppose.

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Posted

Abrego ain't coming home alive. Period. Our only hope is that his death wakes a slumbering populace to the horrors of Trump 2.0.

Posted
18 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Seems a "do-over" at minimum, but that doesn't necessarily mean Abrego stays.

Abrego-Garcia is dead, dude. CERCOT is a death camp.

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Posted

Normally a deportation ends with the individual in their home country just wandering around if they no longer have family there.  So, why is he is jail? No one has alleged that he committed a crime.  On what basis is he being held in a prison?

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Posted
1 minute ago, Cousin Strawberry said:

Normally a deportation ends with the individual in their home country just wandering around if they no longer have family there.  So, why is he is jail? No one has alleged that he committed a crime.  On what basis is he being held in a prison?

the big lebowski dude GIF

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Posted
1 hour ago, Gap03 said:

Vladek's proposal in #3 makes a ton of sense.  An alternative would be to say that any outsourced confinement (like at CECOT) must be reflected in a written agreement that formally requires them the return deportees at the request of the U.S.  The Executive (especially this Executive) can't be given the opportunity to disappear folks and then just throw up their hands and say "Oops, but nothing we can do."

The thing is, SCOTUS already effectively effectively precluded that proposal when they stayed Judge Boasberg's order that halted deportations under the Alien Enemies Act.

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Posted
42 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Xinis taking no shit from Ensign whatsoever.

Going to have two weeks of expedited discovery of government officials, no holidays, no sleep til Brooklyn.

Government will have the opportunity to object to discovery, but pretty clear how that's going to go, and it tends toward unappealable.

Gonna start with the people that gave affidavits.

 

38 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Great. Really awesome stuff that still does nothing to get the guy home anytime soon.

If this is really all that can be done to enforce basic due process protections then there is no due process protection. This country is dead.

The best the judge can do at this juncture is hold people's feet to the fire to provide information. Get them to testify in court, if they refuse, jail them to contempt. If they refuse to answer questions, jail them for contempt. If an attorney insists on making motions to delay things or confuse things after the judge denies them, jail them for contempt. If the evidence shows the administration is making no effort to comply with the judge's order to attempt to get him back, jail officials for contempt. 

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

 

The best the judge can do at this juncture is hold people's feet to the fire to provide information. Get them to testify in court, if they refuse, jail them to contempt. If they refuse to answer questions, jail them for contempt. If an attorney insists on making motions to delay things or confuse things after the judge denies them, jail them for contempt. If the evidence shows the administration is making no effort to comply with the judge's order to attempt to get him back, jail officials for contempt. 

I’m sure we will get a bunch of people jailed for contempt and not just more words on a piece of paper.

Again I’m not blaming the judge. Just saying it’s tiring to hear people talk about how the law working how it’s supposed to. Well the law sucks then and we should do something else.

Edited by hobbes2702
Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Conviction? Dude hasn't even been charged with anything formally. He's been accused of being a gang member by a sex pest dirty cop.

Of course, in the Trump world, a sex pest IS a pretty authoritative source I suppose.

You missed his point. We know the legal remedy of failure to provide due process in a criminal case. We really don't know what the remedy is here.  

1 minute ago, hobbes2702 said:

I’m sure we will get a bunch of people jailed for contempt and not just more words on a piece of paper.

Again, what are you wanting the judge to do? I sense this judge will absolutely order someone to jail for contempt. I believe it is coming. It is SCOTUS that worries me. 

Edited by Dahobbs
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Posted
51 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Look at this cunt that is the general counsel of DHS. https://www.dhs.gov/person/joseph-n-mazzara

Joseph N. Mazzara is a married father of six, a Marine combat veteran, and an experienced litigator. He graduated from Christendom College and Scalia Law, and clerked for Judges Edith Jones, Brantley Starr, and Stephen Vaden. Most recently he was Special Counsel to Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton.

Oh, and he seems to be an 8th year lawyer.

 

tim-gunn-eww-gross (1).gif

two more fucking weeks. gotdamn.

Posted
1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

You missed his point. We know the legal remedy of failure to provide due process in a criminal case. We really don't know what the remedy is here.  

Again, what are you wanting the judge to do? 

Nothing. I’d like this country’s laws to work and they dont

Posted
32 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Conviction? Dude hasn't even been charged with anything formally. He's been accused of being a gang member by a sex pest dirty cop.

Of course, in the Trump world, a sex pest IS a pretty authoritative source I suppose.

I might be misremembering, but didn't he also claim to be a member of the gang as part of his asylum case and why he was fearful to return home?

Posted
1 minute ago, Da Fino said:

I might be misremembering, but didn't he also claim to be a member of the gang as part of his asylum case and why he was fearful to return home?

If I recall, he said he and his family were being pressured by the gangs. He didn't say he was a member. 

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Posted
1 minute ago, Da Fino said:

I might be misremembering, but didn't he also claim to be a member of the gang as part of his asylum case and why he was fearful to return home?

Well I guess that would make all of this ok then wouldn’t it?

Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Da Fino said:

I might be misremembering, but didn't he also claim to be a member of the gang as part of his asylum case and why he was fearful to return home?

his family and their family business was being extorted by gangs in El Salvador. At one point, the family was given a choice to either pay up or offer up their teenage son to the gang.

at some point fearing his safety his family encouraged him to flee to the united states when he was 16 where he entered illegally, moving to be with his brother who i believe is an American citizen.

Edited by yoladu
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Posted
40 minutes ago, Firemans4Horn said:

Let’s fucking go. More of this. 
 

 

Maybe those constituents should elect someone a smidge younger than 91 to be their senator.

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Posted
20 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

You missed his point. We know the legal remedy of failure to provide due process in a criminal case. We really don't know what the remedy is here.  

Again, what are you wanting the judge to do? I sense this judge will absolutely order someone to jail for contempt. I believe it is coming. It is SCOTUS that worries me. 

And the more the argument is made in generalities, I think the easier it is for scotus to rule adversely. 

Posted
Just now, royiv said:

Maybe those constituents should elect someone a smidge younger than 91 to be their senator.


I didn’t vote for Ted Cruz, John Cornyn, Ken Paxton, or Greg Abbott but they still represent me. And if I get a chance to bitch them out I will. 

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Posted
1 minute ago, Firemans4Horn said:


I didn’t vote for Ted Cruz, John Cornyn, Ken Paxton, or Greg Abbott but they still represent me. And if I get a chance to bitch them out I will. 

I'm fairly certain Cruz is an energy vampire, he seems to enjoy being a shitbag to his constituency 

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Posted
30 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The thing is, SCOTUS already effectively effectively precluded that proposal when they stayed Judge Boasberg's order that halted deportations under the Alien Enemies Act.

Well all they really ruled is that habeas corpus was the proper remedy and the case in front of Boasberg had dismissed the habeas claims in favor of the APA claims.

When you add in that they expressly found Abrego Garcia entitled to due process in a properly vemued habeas case, the path is now open for more far reaching orders on deportation. 

Not that they'll do that but they mightif Xinis and the plaintiffs build a good record of contempt for due process and SCOTUS orders. 

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Posted
12 minutes ago, yoladu said:

his family and their family business was being extorted by gangs in El Salvador. At one point, the family was given a choice to either pay up or offer up their teenage son to the gang.

at some point fearing his safety his family encouraged him to flee to the united states when he was 16 where he entered illegally, moving to be with his brother who i believe is an American citizen.

Yep.  Put it in terms the MAGAs will understand:

Terrorist organization Al Qaeda extorted a family.  They demanded that their son join Al Qaeda.  Having listened to the fine folks in the US military, who said Al Qaeda is bad, and you should never help them, in fact you should get away from them, he did exactly that.  He fled Al Qaeda, so they could NEVER force him to be a suicide bomber.  The entire reason for him fleeing to the US was to AVOID helping and being a part of Al Qaeda.

The US government knew this, and treated his case accordingly, affording him status consistent with that.

But then the Trump Regime fucked up, and categorized a guy who was "I fucking hate Al Qaeda and ran away from them so I would never, ever have any part in their evil" as "a member of Al Qaeda."  So, you know, the literal OPPOSITE of what he is.  And then they scooped him up, black-bagged him, and shipped him off to a foreign prison....full of the exact Al Qaeda assholes who he ran away from and who want to kill him and his family.

So, Trumpkins....WHY DO YOU SUPPORT AL QAEDA TERRORISTS BY GIVING THEM WHAT THEY WANT?

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Posted
20 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

If I recall, he said he and his family were being pressured by the gangs. He didn't say he was a member. 

I met quite a few El Salvadorans when I lived on Long Island. I remember one guy recounting that he and his family had a farm and that they refused to pay money to the gang that was controlling the area they lived in. He told me the name of their town, but I cannot remember it. Anyhow the morning after they refused to pay they came to the farm and found several of their workers murdered as retribution for not paying. He fled the country shortly thereafter.

I would bet on a similar reason for Mr. Abrega having filed for asylum. Just horrible that he now is stuck in a prison full of gang members because the ‘Merica portion of America has gone full on fascist and does not care about him and his family nor do they want him living here.

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Posted
25 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I'm fairly certain Cruz is an energy vampire, he seems to enjoy being a shitbag to his constituency 

if it were revealed he were an actual vampire i don't think I would even blink

Posted
51 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Well I guess that would make all of this ok then wouldn’t it?

No. 

 

44 minutes ago, yoladu said:

his family and their family business was being extorted by gangs in El Salvador. At one point, the family was given a choice to either pay up or offer up their teenage son to the gang.

at some point fearing his safety his family encouraged him to flee to the united states when he was 16 where he entered illegally, moving to be with his brother who i believe is an American citizen.

Ah. Thanks. 

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Posted
30 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I'm fairly certain Cruz is an energy vampire, he seems to enjoy being a shitbag to his constituency 

We named him Vulvarine on this very board. How it didn't go mainstream is disappointing. 

 

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Posted
7 minutes ago, Da Fino said:

No. 

 

Ah. Thanks. 

I may have inadvertently created that impression.  One common pattern is gangs terrorizing families to pay tribute money.  Another common pattern is to "take in" young children with candy and money and then start getting them to do random tasks of a non-criminal or minor criminal nature, so they are nominally "in the gang." When they get older, they must either get initiated by jumping in and committing a serious crime, usually murder, or face persecution.

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Posted
2 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

Great. Really awesome stuff that still does nothing to get the guy home anytime soon.

If this is really all that can be done to enforce basic due process protections then there is no due process protection. This country is dead.

This is an extraordinary case, for many reasons, not the least of which is that it is THE test case for whether the executive is subject in any way to the judiciary.  When there is this much at stake a lot more shit happens, which takes a lot more time. It's the same reason why death row inmates take so long to execute - they get maximum due process.  Not only because there is a human life hanging in the balance, but also it actually preserves the death penalty as a thing because the system can say, "See, we gave him years and years and umpteen chances in court."  For an issue of this much gravity, we actually want it to take as long as it needs to for Trump to try every fucking thing to avoid complying with the court's rulings so they can't come back and try that one thing they didn't try this time. We want SCOTUS and every federal judge to be able to tell Trump, "Nope.  Sorry, motherfucker.  You already tried that and it didn't work."

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Posted (edited)

I'll be honestly surprised if Senator Van Hollen returns home alive.  And you can bet your ass Trump would just shrug his shoulders if he doesn't.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Francisco 2.0
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Posted

yeah let's hope there's not a repeat of the last time an American politician flew into a tropical latin country to try and help someone return to the states 😳

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Posted
23 hours ago, Born to Run said:

Didn't you both sides this shit and claim that that it didn't matter much
who was elected.
If so kinda fuck you. You may not be the problem but I kinda remember that you helped get us here by chugging propaganda that both parties are the same or Russia isn't an advesarie

I believe you are confusing my statement of "No President has significantly changed my life. In the end we'll be fine."

Reagan wrecked shit for people like me, but in the end, things kept going forward.

"Trump is a symptom."  I said that too... 

And I definitely didn't say Russia isn't an adversary. It is much more likely that I said Russia will be insignificant in our lifetime.

Posted
12 minutes ago, Slacks said:

It is much more likely that I said Russia will be insignificant the US and Russia will be bound together in a NATO-like alliance in our lifetime within the next two years.

 

Posted
4 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

 

 

 

So, employees of the supposedly independent DOJ are obligated to lie in court on behalf of this administration or they'll be fired.

Sure, nothing to see here.

Christ, man.

 

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Posted
3 hours ago, Cousin Strawberry said:

Normally a deportation ends with the individual in their home country just wandering around if they no longer have family there.  So, why is he is jail? No one has alleged that he committed a crime.  On what basis is he being held in a prison?

Probably important to acknowledge that, other than diplomatic protests or actions, the US has no say over what Bukele does with his citizens, like Abrego Garcia. Or very little.

And, accordingly, it would be problematic/impossible for a US court to order or otherwise force a foreign leader to return a foreign citizen from his home country.

Trumpco is trying to pretend that that is the end of the inquiry.

Of course, Abrego Garcia is there because a) we sent him there b) not merely as a returnee to ES to wander around and for Bukele to try or jail or whatever but c) specifically that he be imprisoned there, for which we are paying, and apparently retain control over the "final disposition."

11 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

 

So, employees of the supposedly independent DOJ are obligated to lie in court on behalf of this administration or they'll be fired.

Sure, nothing to see here.

Christ, man.

 

It should also be noted that the lawyer did not make the admission on behalf of the government, an ICE Agent did, by sworn declaration.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69777799/11/3/abrego-garcia-v-noem/

6.  On March 15, 2025, two planes carrying aliens being removed under the Alien Enemies Act (“AEA”) and one carrying aliens with Title 8 removal orders departed the United States for El Salvador. Abrego-Garcia, a native and citizen of El Salvador, was on the third flight and thus had his removal order to El Salvador executed. This removal was an error

* * *

15. Through administrative error, Abrego-Garcia was removed from the United States to El Salvador. This was an oversight, and the removal was carried out in good faith based on the existence of a final order of removal and Abrego-Garcia’s purported membership in MS-13

 

 

Posted

Holy shit.  I thought Garcia was a totally different dude.  Wasn't until I saw the post with his wife that I realized I was thinking about another dude who was wrongfully sent to the gulag in El Salvador.

What happed to the gay make-up artist they sent down there?  Did he get released? Or has the news cycle on him just been exhausted?

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Posted
3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Probably important to acknowledge that, other than diplomatic protests or actions, the US has no say over what Bukele does with his citizens, like Abrego Garcia.

While true in the letter of the law.  We're not Surinam.  The US could bring a ton of pain to El Salvador is we wanted.  The problem is that Trump is fine with the situation.

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Posted
2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Of course, Abrego Garcia is there because a) we sent him there b) not merely as a returnee to ES to wander around and for Bukele to try or jail or whatever but c) specifically that he be imprisoned there, for which we are paying, and apparently retain control over the "final disposition."

This.  In simplified terms, if you have the contractual power/authority to accomplish something, then you have the necessary authority.  The agreement between the US and El Salvador to send prisoners there in exchange for compensation almost certainly gives us some control over the people we send there (for example, if we needed one of them returned to the US to testify as a witness for the prosecution in an ongoing federal criminal case brought by the DOJ, I'm pretty damned confident that our agreement allows us to request that he be released to our custody for that purpose).

Either we retain custody and control via agreement, in which case the Regime is lying and is in contempt.

OR

We lose all control over anyone we send to prison in El Salvador, thus violating the FUCK out of the constitution (because that means we disappeared people without any due process).

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Holy shit.  I thought Garcia was a totally different dude.  Wasn't until I saw the post with his wife that I realized I was thinking about another dude who was wrongfully sent to the gulag in El Salvador.

What happed to the gay make-up artist they sent down there?  Did he get released? Or has the news cycle on him just been exhausted?

He's Venezuelan, so there is even less "regularity" to his being deported to El Salvador.  I believe he is a plaintiff in the other case before Boasberg.

I was just reminded that during Trump I, there were these agreements with ES, Honduras, and El Salvador where US asylum seekers could be and were removed to those countries to seek asylum there as alleged "safe countries."  And UK had one with Rwanda of all places, but no one was removed there before it was declared unconstitutional.

https://saisreview.sais.jhu.edu/el-salvadors-controversial-offer-housing-u-s-criminals-in-its-mega-prison/

Edited by TwiceHorn
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