Tom "the turtle" Herman [Lame Duck or greatest 5d chess player ever?]

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

8 hours ago, mulletpelini said:

ya, 2 guarantees....guaranteed to nickel and dime ya to the lowest amount possible when they guarantee to fire yas

Nope. As an elite position coach you’d have some nice leverage in that situation. The school is going to pay you market rate, and give you 2-3 years of pay guaranteed. Maybe even with no offsets  

And future employers, who’ve all had to play that game at some point, will understand and still hire you when Battleship Herman founders in 2020. 

It also helps to think of life as an alpha dog coach who thinks he can do anything, and not like an average schluff picking between Cubicle Co. and Widget Bros.  

Edited December 3, 2019 by Bobby_Batronic

[UncleBuck 6,455]

9 hours ago, mulletpelini said:

This is the shit I've never understood.  When the HC fires to save his ass, he's hiring guys that know about it.  They know that they'll live or die by his next 1 or 2 seasons, and if a negative result (which is routinely the case), he's gone and so are they.  If you're a single guy, no family and no ties, then fuck it sure sign me up.  Most of the top guys in position to get hired though, I'm guessing they've got families and shit.  If you're joining a coach with a 5 yr contract and he fucks up by year 2 or 3, so be it, that's just shitty luck.  But when you know there's a good chance of turnover in a year or two, how attractive is that position to most of the best available??

And I've never understood how it cannot be understood. 

 

Coaches, they have egos. They already think they're good, they're right. And if they're really confident, they don't think going to a situation like Texas has right now as any real risk. They "know" they're going to do well there, and hell, maybe they can be the next guy if Herman gets the boot? At worst you collect your guaranteed money while coaching at your next job, who didn't mind hiring you because they know what a shitty situation you were just in. 

 

Kinda like when highly sought after NFL players say they want to win, then go to some 5-11 team in free agency. Easy reaction is to say "ah it was ONLY for the money", but NFL players, especially those highly sought after free agents, truly believe they're good enough to be the difference between 5-11 and 11-5 in contention. 

Edited December 3, 2019 by UncleBuck

[Liquor and Poker 3,659]

7 hours ago, hornhorn said:

Notre Dame, Michigan, USC, Stanford, Wisconsin and Florida all ranked way higher than UT in academics and are doing better in football. It is possible. Those people that claim whether Texas wants to do better or commit to winning are just experiencing sour grapes because of the underperformance they've seen over the years. 

As a guy who used to be in the biz of selling “recruits” to firms:

I’ll give you Tree but they went 4-8

ND - no

Mich - about equal in lib arts but below in biz.  Not sure on sciences or engineering 

Wisc - news to me and my Wisc grad co-worker.  

Fla - that’s a weird one.  Supposedly pretty good school but flies under the radar rep wise.  Outside of Fla it’s kind of unknown (or “underrated” if you prefer).

USC is for kids with money who don’t want to kill it at Tree or Berkley.  No one really knows what you get there. 

[GreenspointTexas 9,933]

6 hours ago, petscii said:

Can anyone ever think of a time where the Head Coach fired errbody under him and then turned it around

 

Brian kelly at ND and Dabo at Clemson

 

they are the only two coaches that completely overhauled their staffs over the last two decades and DIDNT get fired the next year

 

 

last coach to do it was Lane Kiffin and he was fired a few games into the next season on the tarmac

[Hiphopopotamos 21,158]

 

 

[Rhinotx 506]

17 minutes ago, Hiphopopotamos said:

 

 

[maninblack 7,975]

22 minutes ago, GreenspointTexas said:

Brian kelly at ND and Dabo at Clemson

they are the only two coaches that completely overhauled their staffs over the last two decades and DIDNT get fired the next year

last coach to do it was Lane Kiffin and he was fired a few games into the next season on the tarmac

This is what I'm hoping for next season if Urban is still out there. 

[maninblack 7,975]

If we keep Herman one more year only to hire Mike Norvell and watch a coach like Urban Meyer go elsewhere then lets just pack it in. This sports thing might not be for us.

[Randolph Duke 4,034]

I have come to accept that Tom Herman isn't a coach who can build and maintain a successful major college football program.

His decisions to tell the alumni base to effectively fuck off regarding the Horny and Leitao fiascos were an indication he didn't have good overall judgement.

The overall product he has put on the field is another nail in his coffin (the only teams Maryland has beaten twice over the past three years are Texas and Rutgers).

And while his decision to make wholesale changes to his staff is correct, I am getting the sense no one in the field of college football coaching really wants to be associated with Tom Herman's mess at Texas. This staff "transformation" is getting the feel of Charlie Strong's efforts to build his "open checkbook" staff when he took over the Texas program.

Herman's buyout through 2023 is currently at $25.5 million. It will be below $20 million by the end of next season.

The time between now and next Dec will give CDC ample opportunity to evaluate candidates and have discussions with agents. Tom Herman is essentially a dead man walking. He is the "leader" of the UT football program in name only.

Tom needs to be let go and Texas needs to move on. As the story of how Herman attempts (and ultimately fails) to finally build a quality staff unfolds, Herman's ineptitude will become increasingly evident.

Maybe Tillman will give him a soft landing spot at U of H after next season. That would be a good result for Herman and for U of H. And for Texas.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Randolph Duke

[UncleBuck 6,455]

19 minutes ago, Randolph Duke said:

I have come to accept that Tom Herman isn't a coach who can build and maintain a successful major college football program.

His decisions to tell the alumni base to effectively fuck off regarding the Horny and Leitao fiascos were an indication he didn't have good overall judgement.

The overall product he has put on the field is another nail in his coffin (the only teams Maryland has beaten twice over the past three years are Texas and Rutgers).

And while his decision to make wholesale changes to his staff is correct, I am getting the sense no one in the field of college football coaching really wants to be associated with Tom Herman's mess at Texas. This staff "transformation" is getting the feel of Charlie Strong's efforts to build his "open checkbook" staff when he took over the Texas program.

Herman's buyout through 2023 is currently at $25.5 million. It will be below $20 million by the end of next season.

The time between now and next Dec will give CDC ample opportunity to evaluate candidates and have discussions with agents. Tom Herman is essentially a dead man walking. He is the "leader" of the UT football program in name only.

Tom needs to be let go and Texas needs to move on. As the story of how Herman attempts (and ultimately fails) to finally build a quality staff unfolds, Herman's ineptitude will become increasingly evident.

Maybe Tillman will give him a soft landing spot at U of H after next season. That would be a good result for Herman and for U of H. And for Texas.

This is what worries me. You're asking the young guys on this team, and young guys coming in, who are going to hear exactly what you just said, to stick with a dead man walking. 

 

 

[Thiefery 5,108]

Well I'm holding out hope that he figures this shit out despite all the evidence.. I don't want a shit season for 2020

[Burt Macklin 19,211]

13 minutes ago, Randolph Duke said:

I have come to accept that Tom Herman isn't a coach who can build and maintain a successful major college football program.

His decisions to tell the alumni base to effectively fuck off regarding the Horny and Leitao fiascos were an indication he didn't have good overall judgement.

The overall product he has put on the field is another nail in his coffin (the only teams Maryland has beaten twice over the past three years are Texas and Rutgers).

And while his decision to make wholesale changes to his staff is correct, I am getting the sense no one in the field of college football coaching really wants to be associated with Tom Herman's mess at Texas. This staff "transformation" is getting the feel of Charlie Strong's efforts to build his "open checkbook" staff when he took over the Texas program.

Herman's buyout through 2023 is currently at $25.5 million. It will be below $20 million by the end of next season.

The time between now and next Dec will give CDC ample opportunity to evaluate candidates and have discussions with agents. Tom Herman is essentially a dead man walking. He is the "leader" of the UT football program in name only.

Tom needs to be let go and Texas needs to move on. As the story of how Herman attempts (and ultimately fails) to finally build a quality staff unfolds, Herman's ineptitude will become increasingly evident.

Maybe Tillman will give him a soft landing spot at U of H after next season. That would be a good result for Herman and for U of H. And for Texas.

Sorry, RD, You seem to be a little misinformed here. There’s a really smart and plugged in poster on this site that knows for a fact CDC isn’t going to make any changes before realignment because of stability, so Herman getting fired next year is impossible.

[nunna yo bizness 1,690]

11 minutes ago, Burt Macklin said:

Sorry, RD, You seem to be a little misinformed here. There’s a really smart and plugged in poster on this site that knows for a fact CDC isn’t going to make any changes before realignment because of stability, so Herman getting fired next year is impossible.

No shit.  I'm gonna have to see a chiropractor to address the whiplash I got from his sudden change of direction.

[Jkwellborn 7,006]

Sorry, RD, You seem to be a little misinformed here. There’s a really smart and plugged in poster on this site that knows for a fact CDC isn’t going to make any changes before realignment because of stability, so Herman getting fired next year is impossible.

L oh Mother fucking L. I was thinking the same thing.

[CurlyDumps 4,618]

8 hours ago, petscii said:

Can anyone ever think of a time where the Head Coach fired errbody under him and then turned it around

 

Saban replaced both coordinators after year 1.

2007: OC: Applewhite / DC :Steele

2008: OC - McElwain / DC - Smart

[Randolph Duke 4,034]

1 hour ago, Burt Macklin said:

Sorry, RD, You seem to be a little misinformed here. There’s a really smart and plugged in poster on this site that knows for a fact CDC isn’t going to make any changes before realignment because of stability, so Herman getting fired next year is impossible.

Lol. I was absolutely confident Herman wasn't going to fired after the 2019 season. Many people disagreed with me, but I was not only confident, I was correct.

However, there will be a time in the next 30 years, or so, that Tom Herman no longer coaches the UT football program.

I also never said there would be no changed prior to 2023. What I said was that stability within the program was a primary consideration going into the next round of conference realignment.

To bring success back to the program as quickly as possible, the mistake that is Tom Herman needs to be addressed, and it reasonably should be done soon. Sadly, it won't happen after the 2020 season. So after the 2021 season is the soonest we can part ways.

Bottom line - I think the UT fans are going to be served a large shit sandwich between now and conference realignment. Tom Herman needs to go. If CDC can dump him with any semblance of an orderly transition that would be optimal.

I am absolutely on board with those who say the Tom Herman experiment has proven to be a failure and both TH as well as UT would be well served is he were to go back to the mid-major ranks where his skills as a head coach are best suited. I can assure you that that won't happen until and unless CDC is confident it won't affect the position of UT during the next round of realignment. The whole reason Shaka still has a job at UT is that CDC is very much a "program stability" guy and not a "chasing championships" guy.

How CDC navigates the current situation will be interesting. My bet would be that CDC stays focused on the long term financial aspects going into realignment and UT football muddles through 2022 going 9-3 for one year, and 7-5 the other two.

It's harsh to say, but if my kid was considering D1 football programs, I wouldn't encourage him to play under Tom Herman. Nor would I encourage him to sign with any other Big 12 or SEC school. There are a number of other programs with solid academics where he could play football and never dream of finishing better than third in the conference (which is what Texas is facing over the next three years under Tom Herman) and there are a number of programs where a player would have a legitimate chance at competing for a conference championship.

I don't see how we get out of three years of purgatory, knowing Tom needs to be fired and knowing CDC won't fire him because of considerations totally unrelated to on field performance.

[SwanderedTalent 5,761]

8 minutes ago, Randolph Duke said:

Lol. I was absolutely confident Herman wasn't going to fired after the 2019 season. ...  Sadly, it won't happen after the 2020 season.

one, everyone was confident he wasn't getting fired after 2019.

two, he goes 7-5 again next year and he will indeed be fired

So I'm absolutely confident you haven't been vindicated on anything at this point, three weeks after your ass began peeking out. 

[hornhorn 100]

8 hours ago, BurntEyes said:

ND doesn't rank above Texas in academics. They aren't even an AAU member.

They peddle themselves as a great academics University, and it's hard to get into, but they aren't and being in demand doesn't make a University great.

Stanford is above Texas the others aren't "way above".

 

In the latest US news rankings ND was ranked at 15, Texas was at 48. I'd say that's way above. Way way above. 

Wisconsin was the closest at 46, everyone else I listed was 34(Florida) or above that. 

There's no question that Stanford and USC are better than Texas as universities by a mile. Let's face it, Texas is a public school that has enrollment of close to 50K students. That alone precludes Texas from being as selective as the ones listed above. 

[ClubWhatever 12,277]

10 hours ago, petscii said:

Can anyone ever think of a time where the Head Coach fired errbody under him and then turned it around

 

Mack Brown.  Went 5-7 and fired errbody.  Reeled off 8-5, 9-4, 8-5.  Retired to do TV.

Gary Patterson.  Went 4-8 in 2013.  Fired half of errbody.  Went 12-1, 11-2.  Retired to focus on runnnig his chain of saunas.

[BurntOrange&White 41,650]

Saban replaced both coordinators after year 1.
2007: OC: Applewhite / DC :Steele
2008: OC - McElwain / DC - Smart

Saban was an already national championship winning commodity.

[TheFlyingBoat 913]

17 minutes ago, hornhorn said:

In the latest US news rankings ND was ranked at 15, Texas was at 48. I'd say that's way above. Way way above. 

Wisconsin was the closest at 46, everyone else I listed was 34(Florida) or above that. 

There's no question that Stanford and USC are better than Texas as universities by a mile. Let's face it, Texas is a public school that has enrollment of close to 50K students. That alone precludes Texas from being as selective as the ones listed above. 

USNWR national rankings are for clowns. Their program specific rankings are decent enough and their global rankings are fine, but their national ones are a joke. Also, being a public school with a large enrollment may preclude selectivity, but it sure as hell doesn't preclude excellence. We train great graduates and more importantly pump out elite research. Edsger Djikstra (a former Texas CS professor before he passed away) generated more important research  than USC and ND combined over their respective lifetimes (only a slight exaggeration). ND and USC are decent undergrad institutions who have their relative greatness artificially inflated by USNWR's private school bias. Like do you seriously expect me to believe that the school that has accounted for the 3rd most Nobel Prizes in the world and 2nd in the US, only behind Harvard, is somehow a lesser institution than Notre Dame or Vanderbilt?

Edited December 3, 2019 by TheFlyingBoat

[52-80 19,379]

2 minutes ago, TheFlyingBoat said:

USNWR national rankings are for clowns. Their program specific rankings are decent enough and their global rankings are fine but their national ones are a joke. And being a public school with a large enrollment may preclude selectivity but doesn't preclude excellence. We train great graduates and more importantly pump out elite research. Edsger Djikstra (a former Texas CS professor before he passed away) generated more important research  than USC and ND combined over their respective lifetimes (only a slight exaggeration). ND and USC are decent undergrad institutions who have their relative greatness artificially inflated by USNWR's private school bias. Like do you seriously expect me to believe that the school that has accounted for the 3rd most Nobel Prizes in the world and 2nd in the US, only behind Harvard, is somehow a lesser institution than Notre Dame or Vanderbilt?

or university of bath salts

 

Michigan is elite.  the other publics.....

[jet black 301]

Saban replaced both coordinators after year 1.
2007: OC: Applewhite / DC :Steele
2008: OC - McElwain / DC - Smart

That at least looks like a guy that can admit he made a mistake and is looking to upgrade his situation. Herman looks exactly the opposite of that.

[hornhorn 100]

4 minutes ago, TheFlyingBoat said:

USNWR national rankings are for clowns. Their program specific rankings are decent enough and their global rankings are fine but their national ones are a joke. And being a public school with a large enrollment may preclude selectivity but doesn't preclude excellence. We train great graduates and more importantly pump out elite research. Edsger Djikstra (a former Texas CS professor before he passed away) generated more important research  than USC and ND combined over their respective lifetimes (only a slight exaggeration). ND and USC are decent undergrad institutions who have their relative greatness artificially inflated by USNWR's private school bias. Like do you seriously expect me to believe that the school that has accounted for the 3rd most Nobel Prizes in the world and 2nd in the US, only behind Harvard, is somehow a lesser institution than Notre Dame or Vanderbilt?

Where do you get this information? Here's the list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_university_affiliation

And Texas doesn't crack the Top 20. University of Illinois, UC San Diego, etc do however amongst other obvious ones like Harvard and MIT. 

[TheFlyingBoat 913]

Just now, 52-80 said:

or university of bath salts

 

Michigan is elite.  the other publics.....

Yeah. Michigan is undeniably a better school than us. Florida is not. ND is not. USC is not. Wisconsin is probably about the same tier as us (seriously underrated school imo). Stanford is probably the second best school in the world, so yes they blow us out of the water.

[Funk Doctor Spock 13,121]

I know nothing about UW, but Madison is absolutely gorgeous. It has a 'wow' factor to it. Visited about 10 years ago and was taken aback. I didn't even realize it was top 10 best cities to live in at the time, but I can see why. I can see their university being a good one. It's very attractive on the outside. We walked around and it's beautiful.

[closetohumping 17,778]

8 minutes ago, jet black said:

 

That at least looks like a guy that can admit he made a mistake and is looking to upgrade his situation. Herman looks exactly the opposite of that.

 

Let’s let herm make the hires before judging 

[SwanderedTalent 5,761]

31 minutes ago, hornhorn said:

In the latest US news rankings

well there's your first problem

[hornhorn 100]

Just now, SwanderedTalent said:

well there's your first problem

You choose a publication then.

[TheFlyingBoat 913]

12 minutes ago, hornhorn said:

Where do you get this information? Here's the list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_university_affiliation

And Texas doesn't crack the Top 20. University of Illinois, UC San Diego, etc do however amongst other obvious ones like Harvard and MIT. 

I was talking about Berkeley there, thought I mentioned them by name, but I suppose not. I'll fix that. I think we're probably around 30-40 In the world and USNWR Global Rankings seems to agree (and correctly puts Wisconsin at 37 just behind us at 34 and Berkeley at 4). As does CWUR, which puts us at 31 (Wisconsin at 25! and Cal at 8). ARWU, which is a little more generous to foreign universities, has us at 40, which is good for 27 in the country.
 

EDIT: Too late to fix apparently. For clarification, let me be clear when I was talking about a school being 3rd in Nobel Prizes I was talking about Berkeley as an example to show the private school bias in the USNWR national rankings (which isn't present in its global or program specific rankings)

Edited December 3, 2019 by TheFlyingBoat

[hornhorn 100]

2 minutes ago, TheFlyingBoat said:

I was talking about Berkeley there, thought I mentioned them by name, but I suppose not. I'll fix that. I think we're probably around 30-40 In the world and USNWR Global Rankings seems to agree (and correctly puts Wisconsin at 37 just behind us at 34 and Berkeley at 4). As does CWUR, which puts us at 31 (Wisconsin at 25! and Cal at 8). ARWU, which is a little more generous to foreign universities, has us at 40, which is good for 27 in the country.

Oh so you were referring to UC Berkeley being behind Harvard and not Texas? Because it sure as hell wouldn't be right. 

Look Texas is a fine institution but it cannot compare academically to UC public schools or USC or even Michigan. Let's all stop pretending that.

[SwanderedTalent 5,761]

6 minutes ago, hornhorn said:

You choose a publication then.

Times Higher Education

[kevwun 16,269]

9 minutes ago, Spider2YBanana said:

I know nothing about UW, but Madison is absolutely gorgeous. It has a 'wow' factor to it. Visited about 10 years ago and was taken aback. I didn't even realize it was top 10 best cities to live in at the time, but I can see why. I can see their university being a good one. It's very attractive on the outside. We walked around and it's beautiful.

And then January and February happen.  It is really nice outside of winter though.

[hornhorn 100]

2 minutes ago, SwanderedTalent said:

Times Higher Education

Still lists Michigan way above Texas and also U Dub. So football and academics are possible.

[SwanderedTalent 5,761]

Just now, hornhorn said:

Still lists Michigan way above Texas and also U Dub. So football and academics are possible.

I thought we were talking about Notre Dame?

[TheFlyingBoat 913]

4 minutes ago, hornhorn said:

Oh so you were referring to UC Berkeley being behind Harvard and not Texas? Because it sure as hell wouldn't be right. 

Look Texas is a fine institution but it cannot compare academically to UC public schools or USC or even Michigan. Let's all stop pretending that.

Yes, I agree with everything besides USC. USC isn't some glorious school. They game USNWR hard, whoop-de-doo. Ask yourself who are the great alumni or professors there that compare to ours? Berkeley, LA, and SD are all better than Texas with the first being tiers above, the second being a tier above, and the last being better but about on the same tier. Michigan is undeniably a tier above us as well, I agree. I do agree that you can win and be a good school though.

[hornhorn 100]

3 minutes ago, SwanderedTalent said:

I thought we were talking about Notre Dame?

Fair enough, it lists them way below that. But my point isn't that this school is better or that school is better its for those posters who claim that Texas cannot have top notch football and a top 50 academics. Its possible.

[tantric superman 4,668]

Yeah, Fuck USC.

[NoName 17,107]

4 hours ago, Hiphopopotamos said:

 

[tantric superman 4,668]

16 minutes ago, Spider2YBanana said:

I know nothing about UW, but Madison is absolutely gorgeous.

And then they tell you the lake freezes in the winter and you're all like "well fuck that". 

[NoName 17,107]

1 hour ago, Randolph Duke said:

Lol. I was absolutely confident Herman wasn't going to fired after the 2019 season. Many people disagreed with me, but I was not only confident, I was correct.

 

way to go way, way, way the fuck out there on that limb. 

[Funk Doctor Spock 13,121]

2 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

And then they tell you the lake freezes in the winter and you're all like "well fuck that". 

Yeah, that's something I couldn't deal with. I saw part of the UW/Minnesota game, and thought to myself "thank God I live in Texas. I couldn't deal with that snow shit."

[hornhorn 100]

1 minute ago, TheFlyingBoat said:

Yes, I agree with everything besides USC. USC isn't some glorious school. They game USNWR hard, whoop-de-doo. Ask yourself who are the great alumni or professors there that compare to ours? Berkeley, LA, and SD are all better than Texas with the first being tiers above, the second being a tier above, and the last being better but about on the same tier. Michigan is undeniably a tier above us as well, I agree. I do agree that you can win and be a good school though.

Uh Will Ferrell? Alright, enough highjacking of this thread. Let's fire Tom already!

[hornhorn 100]

Just now, Spider2YBanana said:

Yeah, that's something I couldn't deal with. I saw part of the UW/Minnesota game, and thought to myself "thank God I live in Texas. I couldn't deal with that snow shit."

And its fucking muggy 4 months out of the year and it gets dark at 3pm same 4 months. Fuck that BS.

[Funk Doctor Spock 13,121]

10 minutes ago, kevwun said:

And then January and February happen.  It is really nice outside of winter though.

Yeah, exactly. I couldn't deal with their winters, but outside of that it's beautiful. We went in August, if I can remember correctly. 

[Funk Doctor Spock 13,121]

Just now, hornhorn said:

And its fucking muggy 4 months out of the year and it gets dark at 3pm same 4 months. Fuck that BS.

Damn, really? And I thought it getting dark at 6 here sucked ass. 

[hornhorn 100]

1 minute ago, Spider2YBanana said:

Damn, really? And I thought it getting dark at 6 here sucked ass. 

I worked for Procter and Gamble right out of college and went to Cincy for training for two weeks in January. We'd meet up at 8 and leave at 4, never saw the sun until I got back to Dallas.

Madison is north of Cincy so I can't imagine it being any better.

[kevwun 16,269]

Yeah it's the same.  My wife is from Madison and says when she was a kid going to school in the winter that she left home on the bus in the dark and got back home in the dark.

Edited December 3, 2019 by kevwun

[TheFlyingBoat 913]

13 minutes ago, hornhorn said:

Uh Will Ferrell? Alright, enough highjacking of this thread. Let's fire Tom already!

Tbh I think he can turn it around. I knew plenty of people like him growing up that were very smart, got full of themselves and arrogant which caused them to make stupid mistakes everyone else could see but them. Most of them got back up and killed it after being humiliated. I could see Herman pulling it off if given one more year. Hiring Ash would put a damper on those hopes though.

[Burt Macklin 19,211]

1 hour ago, Randolph Duke said:

 

I also never said there would be no changed prior to 2023

On 11/12/2019 at 12:55 PM, Randolph Duke said:

 

Absent any major misstep, there isn't going to be a change in any of the three major sports programs at UT Austin prior to at least 2023

Never change, Randy. Never change.