Tom "the turtle" Herman [Lame Duck or greatest 5d chess player ever?]

[mdmost 42876]

Stop begging you weirdo. 

[Captain Ron 12813]

4 minutes ago, mdmost said:

They aren't firing him this year unless we have a losing record and even then, like Shaka, he gets a mulligan year because of Covid. The AD doesn't have the money to buy him out unless the donors pony up the 20 million to do so. Why would you give enough of a shit right now to waste 20 million of your own money?

I certainly don't disagree about the economic issues with all of this, so let's assume that Herman has a crap 2020 season. Say OU drops a Stoops/Mack beat down on Texas, the wheels fall off and Texas doesn't recover or make the conference title game.

Would next year be a mulligan year? Or is it possible that baring a miracle (win conference, make the playoff), Herman is gone?

[alincoln 2364]

21 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

To counter this, Texas survived with shit football from approximately 1977 to 1997.  Granted, it is a different environment today than it was then.

Strangely, a lot of athletics related revenue, i.e. licensing of gear, seems to survive downturns quite well.

We're only 10ish years into this period of extended suckitude.

Texas football was pretty damn good from 78-83.  5 top 20, 3 Top 10 and 2 top 5 finishes in 6 years.  That stretch should not be included in any range of "shit Texas football."

1984-1994 is more analogous to 2010-2019.  Back-end of a successful era followed by a coach who was in over his head (McWilliams and Strong) and then a smug asshole who thought he was better than he was (Mackovic and Herman).

84-89 was an unmitigated disaster that was attributable to the decline of the SWC, rampant cheating in college football and a bad hire in McWilliams.  1990-1997 included some awful football but also a few memorable and fun seasons (1990, 1995 and 1996).

You have to go back to the 30s for a decade of football this joyless.

[mdmost 42876]

3 minutes ago, Captain Ron said:

I certainly don't disagree about the economic issues with all of this, so let's assume that Herman has a crap 2020 season. Say OU drops a Stoops/Mack beat down on Texas, the wheels fall off and Texas doesn't recover or make the conference title game.

Would next year be a mulligan year? Or is it possible that baring a miracle (win conference, make the playoff), Herman is gone?

Next year is put up or shut up. Either win the conference and make the playoffs or you're gone. Yes, it should be the case that he's gone this year if he doesn't win the conference. But it won't because the cost is too high. Look at how long we've held onto Shaka. He should've been gone long ago but his buyout is a problem. That's not on CDC. The Herman extension and buyout definitely is. 

[BurntOrange&White 39717]

Schools who give a shit about winning would fire him regardless of covid and would find a way for the buyout. Covid as an excuse especially at a program like ours is so fucking aggy. 

[Huckleberry 32710]

1 hour ago, alincoln said:

The buyout is the only issue beyond CDC holding out faint hope that one of the worst decisions by a Texas AD ever (the Herman extension) will look better if Herman turns it around a bit.  Herman appears to be almost universally loathed, which is very rare.  Even the shittiest coaches and human beings usually have some diehard supporters.  Unfortunately under current circumstances, the buyout is probably enough for him to stay on another year.    

Iconoclast Texan is a diehard supporter. Does Herman have another? Michelle doesn't count. 

[Nicole44 22028]

I posted this in the Urban thread also.

Man did Colin Cowherd rip UT a new one today. I typically don’t agree with his takes but...

it was the right/wrong segment: Colin said he was wrong about Herman being the best hire for Texas. Likes him. Blah blah blah...good recruiting on offense...good offensive mind BUT....

UT should not take four or five years to rebuild. We have the most money in the conference. Easiest and best recruiting with OU 2nd and TCU a close 3rd. No reason the defense should be this atrocious. That we should lose this many times to TCU with an NFL caliber senior quarterback. No excuses for why we are this bad except it is coaching. And Colin likes Herman so...

ITA! It shouldn’t take us four fucking years to rebuild. Period. Period. And at the end of four still look like we did Saturday. 

 

[alincoln 2364]

29 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Almost winning 2 national championships is shit football? Sign me up for some shit football, then. 

Also 11-8-2 against OU in those 21 years. God that would be downright refreshing compared to the past 11 seasons. 

Good point re: OU.  Even in the depths of the 80s-90s suck (84-97), Texas went 6-6-2 against OU compared to 3-8 post-Colt.

[Js1 85153]

3 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

I posted this in the Urban thread also.

Man did Colin Cowherd rip UT a new one today. I typically don’t agree with his takes but...

it was the right/wrong segment: Colin said he was wrong about Herman being the best hire for Texas. Likes him. Blah blah blah...good recruiting on offense...good offensive mind BUT....

UT should not take four or five years to rebuild. We have the most money in the conference. Easiest and best recruiting with OU 2nd and TCU a close 3rd. No reason the defense should be this atrocious. That we should lose this many times to TCU with an NFL caliber senior quarterback. No excuses for why we are this bad except it is coaching. And Colin likes Herman so...

ITA! It shouldn’t take us four fucking years to rebuild. Period. Period. And at the end of four still look like we did Saturday. 

 

Money doesn't rebuild a program unless you use it correctly.

Texas fans are too holier than thou for that. 

[maninblack 7974]

27 minutes ago, immamac said:

What happens in a blowout loss scenario vs OU?

Lets call it a loss by more than 21?

I tend to think he's safe just from the dollars that'd be involved in firing him and staff and hiring a new one. 

The only thing I could see changing that is if he really does blowup. The time to do it was after Tech. Now we're most likely stuck until after next season.

[BrazilHorn 6577]

Times like this are when I wish someone like Michael Dell really gave a shit about football and would use some couch cushion money ($20-$30M for him) to buy this shit head out and demand a better hire.

As much as I want him gone after this season (hell mid season would be fine) I don't see CDC having the funds pulled together to do it. I also think Herman will point to CV19 and onboarding two new assistants (ignoring it was shitty performance last year that brought about the change) and he will finagle another season.

[Wally Pryor 5246]

1 hour ago, alincoln said:

The buyout is the only issue beyond CDC holding out faint hope that one of the worst decisions by a Texas AD ever (the Herman extension) will look better if Herman turns it around a bit.  Herman appears to be almost universally loathed, which is very rare.  Even the shittiest coaches and human beings usually have some diehard supporters.  

Patterson (Steve) wrote the book on being universally loathed.  In comparison, Herman is the Dalia Lama.  At least right now. 

But give him time.   If Herman smugly continues telling the fanbase that 2 + 2 = 5 then the door is open to approach the level of hatred for Patterson. 

[alincoln 2364]

Much stranger things have happened than a couple billionaires buying out Herman after Texas loses by 31 to an unranked OU, particularly if Urban has agreed to take the job.

I really don't think Urban is a good fit at Texas, although he is exactly what Texas needs.  The culture clash b/w Urban & Co. and the softer than Charmin Texas athletic department, football program, administration and university at large would be highly entertaining.      

 

 

[GabrielsHorn 2142]

13 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

I posted this in the Urban thread also.

Man did Colin Cowherd rip UT a new one today. I typically don’t agree with his takes but...

it was the right/wrong segment: Colin said he was wrong about Herman being the best hire for Texas. Likes him. Blah blah blah...good recruiting on offense...good offensive mind BUT....

UT should not take four or five years to rebuild. We have the most money in the conference. Easiest and best recruiting with OU 2nd and TCU a close 3rd. No reason the defense should be this atrocious. That we should lose this many times to TCU with an NFL caliber senior quarterback. No excuses for why we are this bad except it is coaching. And Colin likes Herman so...

ITA! It shouldn’t take us four fucking years to rebuild. Period. Period. And at the end of four still look like we did Saturday. 

 

National media in general are ripping us to shreds. Bruce Feldman yesterday clearly wanted to say Herman was a fraud during his Sunday recap show but just instead talked about how Texas isn't there. The podcast Athlon puts out pretty much laid out the case for why Herman should be fired by essentially saying Herman's given a filet mignon and delivering a well-done, burnt steak. 

If we lose on Saturday, I'd imagine every podcast will have their "Texas isn't back, Herman isn't it" segment and just forget about us for the rest of the season.

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

54 minutes ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

This Saturday are the games tom uses to make the higher ups believe he is the guy. Tom seems do well in the “bigger” games ou, LSU, bowl games(Georgia, Missouri, Utah). I have no doubt our game Saturday will be competitive and we might even win and he will have that shit eating grin on his face like he’s a genius and we are all dummies. Then we get a week off and host Baylor and we will look like we haven’t practiced at all, missing tackles, starting the game off with a delay of game, dropping passes, etc. fuck I’m getting ragey just posting how I think we will look.

Nailed it. It’s so fucking frustrating. His record against the spread as an underdog is incredible. He can get his team up for one big game every year, but the rest is slop thrown together 

[dcar00 14044]

18 minutes ago, maninblack said:

I tend to think he's safe just from the dollars that'd be involved in firing him and staff and hiring a new one. 

The only thing I could see changing that is if he really does blowup. The time to do it was after Tech. Now we're most likely stuck until after next season.

I would agree that he will be here next year barring something like a 3 or 4 win season.  but Texas would never fire a coach during the regular season.  

Edited October 5, 2020 by dcar00

[Helobious 9495]

It’s year 7 of the CFP. We’ve never spent one week ranked in the top 4 during that time. Not once. I would like it if we achieved at least that sometime.

[Wally Pryor 5246]

7 minutes ago, GabrielsHorn said:

National media in general are ripping us to shreds.

And they should.   

We have and always will have an embarrassment of riches, resources and facilities to produce what should be an elite product.   Instead, we're knee deep now in year 11,  of mediocrity.    On top of that we do this every-other-year, nonsensical reach to crow that "We're Back" on the off chance that we get a big win.   And it's punctuated by a gimmicky coach that goes out of his way to profess his intelligence  while insinuating that others lack it. 

Embarrassment of riches, resources and facilities?  Check.     Embarrassing product on the field?   Check, as well.     

We deserve to get hammered. 

[jinx 2635]

14 minutes ago, GabrielsHorn said:

National media in general are ripping us to shreds. Bruce Feldman yesterday clearly wanted to say Herman was a fraud during his Sunday recap show but just instead talked about how Texas isn't there. The podcast Athlon puts out pretty much laid out the case for why Herman should be fired by essentially saying Herman's given a filet mignon and delivering a well-done, burnt steak. 

If we lose on Saturday, I'd imagine every podcast will have their "Texas isn't back, Herman isn't it" segment and just forget about us for the rest of the season.

I actually felt sorry for Brian Jones on Saturday when one of the other halftime analysts asked him what was wrong with his beloved Texas. 

I don't recall his exact comment, but he looked like he had just watched his dog die and mumbled something about wondering if Texas would ever really be back.

[jinx 2635]

3 hours ago, utee94 said:

Yeah it's not the 80s.  With the current rules we have in place for admissions at Texas, football success isn't correlated to academic success or better incoming classes.  

I'm gonna disagree.  Maybe it wouldn't affect us to the extent that it has Bama, but their winning decade has built them a whole new campus.

I did senior project evaluations at Bama the last few semesters, and driving around campus, I couldn't believe the amount of stuff that looked brand new or was in the construction process.  Since I was doing civil / architectural evals, the profs were more than happy to fill me in on everything that was being built.  It was pretty amazing.  It was all on the backing of happy as hell donors giving money away left and right.

Brand new shit is a good way to attract the best and brightest.  Bama is making a hard push to steal kids from TX, GA, and FL, and not just in football.

[jinx 2635]

4 hours ago, TreatyOak said:

 Caption this photo.

Dammit Tom, I'm gonna miss the shit out of you when you are gone.  Come give Daddy a hug.

[David Dennison 18702]

34 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

I would agree that he will be here next year barring something like a 3 or 4 win season.  but Texas would never fire a coach during the regular season.  

He's not getting fired no matter how bad this season is. Probably not next year either.

[Shaggy3.0 1695]

17 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

He's not getting fired no matter how bad this season is. Probably not next year either.

From death by a thousand cuts shall this program perish.

 

[El Squared 1793]

6 hours ago, BradInATX said:

PSA: y'all sound like aggy calling for Bellicheck coaching in College Station when you discuss Dabo as a real possibility to replace Herman. Texas has nothing to offer that Clemson doesn't outside of an intangible and rapidly fading "blueblood" status which nobody gives a shit about.

Not only has the “blueblood” completely left the “brand” but it’s been replaced by a sign that says:

“ Kick me”

Edited October 5, 2020 by El Squared

[El Squared 1793]

5 hours ago, TreatyOak said:

 Caption this photo.

“ Yes Tom, I’m in your ass ....again”

[Nicole44 22028]

Tons of good stuff in the article:

“In the Big 12, frankly if you’re Texas, it should not take two to three to four years to rebuild. Outside of Oklahoma, you should be heavily favored. You're getting better players in recruiting than every school. There's Oklahoma, Texas (and) TCU is a distant third in terms of recruiting. Simply so far, not good enough.” (Colin Cowherd)

UConn Tom on Sam’s performance vs TCU:

"I think it was up and down," Herman said. "He made some really, really good throws — made some ill-advised ones as well. TCU's defense did a really good job, so you never want to — it's not like we were playing out there on air. Those guys, they've got a really good defense and they got a lot better this week and they came out ready to play and played well, but I don't think anybody's confidence in Sam is shaken in the least. And I'm sure he'll tell you he didn't play his best game, but at the end of the day, I think we're all pretty confident in him and his abilities."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/247sports.com/Article/Tom-Herman-Texas-Longhorns-simply-so-far-not-good-enough-Sam-Ehlinger-Colin-Cowherd-TCU-Oklahoma-Red-River-Showdown-152491497/Amp/

some good stuff in there. Video is worth a watch/ podcast worth a listen.

 

 

[utee94 15747]

1 hour ago, jinx said:

I'm gonna disagree.  Maybe it wouldn't affect us to the extent that it has Bama, but their winning decade has built them a whole new campus.

I did senior project evaluations at Bama the last few semesters, and driving around campus, I couldn't believe the amount of stuff that looked brand new or was in the construction process.  Since I was doing civil / architectural evals, the profs were more than happy to fill me in on everything that was being built.  It was pretty amazing.  It was all on the backing of happy as hell donors giving money away left and right.

Brand new shit is a good way to attract the best and brightest.  Bama is making a hard push to steal kids from TX, GA, and FL, and not just in football.

We are absolutely nothing like Alabama.  I can understand why that type of branding works for them.  It's unnecessary and irrelevant for Texas.

Edit: I'll add that I'd love to have their past decade of success on the football field.  But as far as academics go, we're not on the same planet. We're not competing for the same caliber of students.  And the types of things they need to boost their reputation among incoming students, is not the same as what our incoming students are looking for.

Edited October 5, 2020 by utee94

[TejasPedro 1849]

Now is a good time to bring up the hat thing. When you see our hat on the table does your stomach just ball up and give you instant Coronavirus. It’s kind of embarrassing to see them even try and diss the horns hat. It doesn’t mean anything anymore. Kids are going to laugh at other kids for even putting a Texas hat on the table. A La-La hat now has more clout.

[David Dennison 18702]

20 minutes ago, utee94 said:

We are absolutely nothing like Alabama.  I can understand why that type of branding works for them.  It's unnecessary and irrelevant for Texas.

Edit: I'll add that I'd love to have their past decade of success on the football field.  But as far as academics go, we're not on the same planet. We're not competing for the same caliber of students.  And the types of things they need to boost their reputation among incoming students, is not the same as what our incoming students are looking for.

Yeah, the football team's success doesn't mean diddly when it comes to the school as an academic institution or the rest of the physical campus. That's a very good thing.

[Nueces River Rat 5531]

I’d be ok with Fleck. I wanna see if he can follow up this season. 

Yea that’s what I’m thinking too. They need to win their side of the Big 10 and then get in the ‘ship with Ohio State and beat them solidly.

[UTEX_ME 4754]

Does Urban even want the job? I mean at this point who would? 

[UTEX_ME 4754]

2 hours ago, jinx said:

I actually felt sorry for Brian Jones on Saturday when one of the other halftime analysts asked him what was wrong with his beloved Texas. 

I don't recall his exact comment, but he looked like he had just watched his dog die and mumbled something about wondering if Texas would ever really be back.

Don't know if you saw, but on LHN post game Ricky was fucking checked out. He had no anger or care in the world. We have all become numb. 

[utee94 15747]

11 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

What about Florida? Ohio State? 

What about them?  I'm not sure what you're getting at?

This whole line of discussion was prompted by the two quotes below, where Rip76 equated the capability to pull a lot of new students to your university based on on-field football success.

5 hours ago, Rip76 said:

Truth.

I was just thinking about this the other day.  When I was in HS we sucked and Aggy was pretty good.  And if you looked in the back of the yearbook for those 4 years, most every Senior going off to college was headed to College Station.

 

5 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Thing is, though, top 6-8-10% is doing great (or other, depending on your perspective) things to our acceptance rate.  I'm not sure our football team is going to really affect that.  

And I agreed with TwiceHorns' take, that on-field football success really doesn't have anything to do with incoming student admissions at Texas, due to our current admissions practices.  This isn't the 80s.  Nowadays there's a long line of smart, talented, qualified candidates, that are still not able to get admitted to UT.  And it has nothing do do with on-field football success.

 

[BurntOrange&White 39717]

And that’s the crossroads we’re coming to with our university. Does it care more about academics or athletics? Does it really want to win in sports or does it really want to win in academics? 
 

From what I see I think they’re more concerned with winning in academics than sports. We’re complacent in sports due to our history and our history is good enough for that side these days.
 

We’re content with talking about the 2005 national title and DKRs days rather than going out and recreating those days. 
 

Our academic standards are making it tougher and tougher to get in and it’s only a matter of time before we get some ridiculous Stanford type athletic admissions process then it’s kiss our chances of national championships in football goodbye. 

[Bill Lumbergh 7171]

And that’s the crossroads we’re coming to with our university. Does it care more about academics or athletics? Does it really want to win in sports or does it really want to win in academics? 

 

From what I see I think they’re more concerned with winning in academics than sports. We’re complacent in sports due to our history and our history is good enough for that side these days.

 

We’re content with talking about the 2005 national title and DKRs days rather than going out and recreating those days. 

 

Our academic standards are making it tougher and tougher to get in and it’s only a matter of time before we get some ridiculous Stanford type athletic admissions process then it’s kiss our chances of national championships in football goodbye. 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but do you have examples of where this has hurt us? Recruits who were clearly heading our way but failed to qualify?

 

There's no reason we shouldn't be able to succeed academically and athletically. I refuse to believe those things are so at odds that we can't do both. If one is blocking the other than we should fix it.

 

[BurntOrange&White 39717]

1 minute ago, Bill Lumbergh said:

I'm not saying you're wrong, but do you have examples of where this has hurt us? Recruits who were clearly heading our way but failed to qualify?

 

There's no reason we shouldn't be able to succeed academically and athletically. I refuse to believe those things are so at odds that we can't do both. If one is blocking the other than we should fix it.

 

I’m not saying right now but judging the trajectory of our admissions process I’d say it’s only a matter of time. 
 

 

[tokamak 6353]

2 hours ago, Helobious said:

It’s year 7 of the CFP. We’ve never spent one week ranked in the top 4 during that time. Not once. I would like it if we achieved at least that sometime.

God damn that is depressing.

[jinx 2635]

1 hour ago, utee94 said:

We are absolutely nothing like Alabama.  I can understand why that type of branding works for them.  It's unnecessary and irrelevant for Texas.

Edit: I'll add that I'd love to have their past decade of success on the football field.  But as far as academics go, we're not on the same planet. We're not competing for the same caliber of students.  And the types of things they need to boost their reputation among incoming students, is not the same as what our incoming students are looking for.

I saw your follow up post and realized I was responding to a different question.  Winning won't change the students we get, but it will change the cash flow.

I mean, if Tom would just win championships we would have the money sitting ready to buy him out (and Shaka).  Talk about a Catch 22.

[utee94 15747]

1 hour ago, jinx said:

I saw your follow up post and realized I was responding to a different question.  Winning won't change the students we get, but it will change the cash flow.

I mean, if Tom would just win championships we would have the money sitting ready to buy him out (and Shaka).  Talk about a Catch 22.

Gotcha.  I don't disagree.  Catch 22 indeed.

53 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Purely that it doesn't have to be either/or. It is possible to keep up good academic standards AND a good athletics program. We don't have to suck we choose to. 

Not only that, but money is fucking money. Are you of the mindset that the fiduciary dividends that our academics see from the athletic department is not valuable to the overall academics or that they are enough to be a factor? Do you think contributions from graduates to their areas of study schools swell or grows when athletics is doing better or is it a non-factor?

One can be both a winning academic and athletic university. Hell, Stanford has done better at us athletically in the not to distant past. Ohio State and Florida do it on the reg.

If The University of Texas academic side sees no value in athletic pursuits, I can begrudgingly accept that reality. 

However, if that is the path, then let's stop lying about it. Let's stop building on and improving our stadium. Shut it down and be whatever they think that is to their whim. Do not continue however on this path of also rans while chest thumping and taking money. Shit or get off the pot. Strive to be great at both or just one, not half ass at either.

I'm not really arguing against this, because it's not really related to the point that I was addressing, which is that having a winning football program, brings in the student applications.  Where Texas admissions currently stand, football is unnecessary and irrelevant to student applications.  We're already turning away more smart, talented, qualified applicants than we can place in our various colleges, and our football program has been a dumpster fire for a decade, so football success isn't going to change that.

On the overall point that athletic success can provide increased resources to the entire university-- sure.  I'm certainly on board with having excellent UT football in addition to the excellent UT engineering and business schools where I hold degrees.

Step 1 in that plan-- having excellent UT football. Let's make it so, #1.

 

 

 

[Treefidy 1463]

7 hours ago, 6th Street said:

Aside from a being a plus recruiter relative to his Big 12 peers, Herman is not adding any value. And even the recruiting is fading as the 4-5 loss seasons pile up. Look at the impressive OL and WR recruiting whiffs. This is only going to get worse, and we are now in a position of a deteriorating football program while trying to open up a massive new South Endzone revamp.

He’s not really even a plus recruiter, he does about well as a blanket warmed by bum piss should do at UT.   The fact Charlie was worse is an indictment of him and in now way speaks to Mensa recruiting.  
 

I was watching the ravens play last week and was thinking holy shit there’s a LOT of guys from Texas on that team and only 2 played here.   That’s the last decade at UT and until we get someone who can actually coach and turn this thing around the states top talent will continue to go elsewhere.  

[TreatyOak 16172]

[Eggo 3976]

 

[Deej 76600]

1 minute ago, Eggo said:

 

Go fuck yourself, Mrs. Herman.

[Brothahorn 10085]

8 minutes ago, Eggo said:

 

We'll settle for a coach that knows what he is doing so the players will know what the fuck they are doing.

[utee94 15747]

1 hour ago, Eggo said:

 

Statements like this are so stupid.  We don't expect the title to be gift-wrapped, we absolutely want the team to earn it.

That's clearly not happening.

 

[Bill Lumbergh 7171]

 

No, we'd be ok with a coach who can work for 4 years to develop his roster, solidify his coaching staff and culture, and then with the senior qb he developed and upper class talent go out and beat teams like tcu who haven't been within 10 spots of us in the recruiting rankings for the years that impacted players on the field today.

That would be sufficient, and it's hardly asking for a championship to be handed to us. It's fucking tcu.

[BurntOrange&White 39717]

apparently covid shouldn’t be an excuse. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

All of this was on display in game one against Maryland four years ago. We’ve just been marking time ever since. 
 

Let’s hire a coach with real division one head coaching experience next time instead of the hotshot dude from cougar high with a whole two seasons under his belt. We basically saw what aggy did with Sumlin and said, “yeah! Let’s do that!”

Edited October 6, 2020 by JimmyJames

[TwiceHorn 31324]

9 hours ago, alincoln said:

Good point re: OU.  Even in the depths of the 80s-90s suck (84-97), Texas went 6-6-2 against OU compared to 3-8 post-Colt.

Well, Switzer was losing his grip at OU and he got run in 88, commencing OU's period of wandering the woods until Stoops in 99.

[XYZ 2154]

Who the fuck is Nu-Nu Washington?