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Tom "the turtle" Herman [Lame Duck or greatest 5d chess player ever?]

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texasstrong12

texasstrong12 4668

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1 minute ago, Fud said:

Out of curiosity, how do you consider Franklin to have won at Vanderbilt but not consider Campbell to be winning at Iowa State? 

A couple 9 win seasons and 2 ranked seasons. And in a tougher conference. 

I'm not arguing Franklin won big at Vanderbilt but his results have definitely been better than Campbell's at a similar level school. 

 

 

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dcar00

dcar00 14028

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4 minutes ago, alphahorn said:

Those of you in favor of Franklin, think about this before you knee jerk answer. If to 10 finishes is your yardstick, do you really believe Franklin is a better coach than say Mack Brown.  If we can't upgrade from MB, then we're wasting our time as we have been since we fired him and didn't get Saban

yes I think the consensus is we'd like to get back to early Mack Brown at least, or at least I would.  Charlie was an absolute clusterfuck and Herman is Mackovic without the vineyard.   every coach not named Urban Meyer is going to be a risk.

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texasstrong12

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2 minutes ago, alphahorn said:

Those of you in favor of Franklin, think about this before you knee jerk answer. If top 10 finishes is your yardstick, do you really believe Franklin is a better coach than say Mack Brown.  If we can't upgrade from MB, then we're wasting our time as we have been since we fired him and didn't get Saban

There are only like 2 or 3 total coaches in CFB that are better than the prime Mack Brown years at Texas. 

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texasstrong12

texasstrong12 4668

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Just now, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Watching folks have a serious discussion about a replacement other then Meyer is incredibly surreal. Or depressing. Maybe that’s a better word for it.

Everyone knows Meyer should be the top choice. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. 

But what happens if Texas can't hire him? 

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El Hornarino

El Hornarino 367

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Franklin's one conference title in six seasons was the 2016 season, in which he won his only outing against Urban Meyer's Ohio State.  Seems like many considered that game something of a fluke, given that OSU was sent to the CFP that year anyway (and were crushed by Clemson).

Just counting wins, I suppose he has done all right the last four seasons.  If Texas is content to get back to 10 or 11 wins a season, with losing the the one or two decent teams played each season and conference titles once in a blue moon, this hire makes sense.  Franklin is 1-5 vs Ohio State, and he is 2-4 against Michigan.

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texasstrong12

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7 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

the 2 best candidates(Saban/Dabo/Petersen are out) after Meyer are probably  Mullen and Franklin.   Both these guys have been successful at 2 P5 programs and both won in P5 at also ran football schools.  they aren't just one hit G5 wonders which is the problem with the last 2 guys we hired.

I don't hate Petersen but he was unwilling to adapt at Washington, he also retired because of "pressure", and he was just kind of meh in a bad Pac 12 conference. His best years seem to have passed him up back in his Boise State days. 

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texasstrong12

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8 minutes ago, El Hornarino said:

Franklin's one conference title in six seasons was the 2016 season, in which he won his only outing against Urban Meyer's Ohio State.  Seems like many considered that game something of a fluke, given that OSU was sent to the CFP that year anyway (and were crushed by Clemson).

Just counting wins, I suppose he has done all right the last four seasons.  I suppose if Texas is content to get back to 10 or 11 wins a season, with losing the the one or two decent teams played each season, this hire makes sense.  Franklin is 1-5 vs Ohio State, and he is 2-4 against Michigan.

This is definitely a worry but nobody can beat Urban Meyer. 

The lack of conference titles is because Ohio State had one of the best coaches in the history of the sport. It's the same reason Kirby Smart can't stack titles in the SEC with Saban. Does that mean Smart is a bad coach? I think Smart might be the 3rd best coach in CFB. 

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UncleSonny

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1 minute ago, texasstrong12 said:

Everyone knows Meyer should be the top choice. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. 

But what happens if Texas can't hire him? 

Yeah there is an overwhelmingly clear 1A option here. You do everything you can to get Urban but if he says no you have to hire somebody, who wants to waste another year of their lives watching Tom Herman football teams?  Do a real search but Franklin makes as much sense as anyone to me as a plan B. I think he would kill it in recruiting at least. 

6 minutes ago, Fud said:

Franklin is Black Mack 

We all want Texas to fulfill their destiny and build an Alabama like powerhouse, but after the last decade+ most of us would give anything for another prime period Mack level program. If Urban says no, sign me the fuck up for black Mack.

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DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt

DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301

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Just now, UncleSonny said:

 

Yeah there is an overwhelmingly clear 1A option here. You do everything you can to get Urban but if he says no you have to hire somebody, who wants to waste another year of their lives watching Tom Herman football teams?  Do a real search but Franklin makes as much sense as anyone to me as a plan B. I think he would kill it in recruiting at least. 

We all want Texas to fulfill their destiny and build an Alabama like powerhouse, but after the last decade+ most of us would give anything for another prime period Mack level program. If Urban says no, sign me the fuck up for black Mack.

Urban isn’t going to say no. It’s the biggest layup in coaching search history. Sit back and watch us shit down our leg, it should be entertaining.

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UncleSonny

UncleSonny 6524

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6 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

He’s the only choice. Either hire him or keep Herman.

What's the plan if this is the case though? If Urban doesn't happen this year it's never going to happen with him. The Saban ship has sailed and Dabo isn't happening. What are we waiting on if we give Herman another year, Shanahan to get fired? I just don't see another year or two of waiting for the "perfect" candidate being worth the long-term damage to the program (and my liver). 

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DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt

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2 minutes ago, texasstrong12 said:

I don't really agree with that if the money is there. 

I think Franklin is definitely an upgrade over Herman. A pretty substantial upgrade if he hires a couple rainmaker type recruiters. 

Look, Franklin was my choice when we picked Strong. I think he’s a good coach. But if Texas doesn’t hire Urban, it’s because they chose not to...in doing so, the statement they are making is winning championships isn’t a high priority. And if that is the case, why fork out so much more money when we have a guy that’s perfectly capable of not winning championships?

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DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt

DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301

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2 minutes ago, UncleSonny said:

What's the plan if this is the case though? If Urban doesn't happen this year it's never going to happen with him. The Saban ship has sailed and Dabo isn't happening. What are we waiting on if we give Herman another year, Shanahan to get fired? I just don't see another year or two of waiting for the "perfect" candidate being worth the long-term damage to the program (and my liver). 

The perfect candidate is available. If the plan is to pass on the perfect candidate, then who gives a shit what the rest of the plan is?

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texasstrong12

texasstrong12 4668

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5 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Look, Franklin was my choice when we picked Strong. I think he’s a good coach. But if Texas doesn’t hire Urban, it’s because they chose not to...in doing so, the statement they are making is winning championships isn’t a high priority. And if that is the case, why fork out so much more money when we have a guy that’s perfectly capable of not winning championships?

I don't disagree. Urban should be the hire. I've said this before, Urban is our Augie Garrido just waiting to be hired. 

But hypothetically speaking, if Urban isn't available I think Texas has reached a point where they have to make a move. Recruiting is dead, attrition is starting, and the team is awful. They might have to spend money on a good hire vs a home run type hire. I think that's Franklin. 

Not to mention there seems to be issues brewing over the Eyes between CDC and Herman. Can CDC keep a coach that's unwilling to follow his demands? 

Edited by texasstrong12
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George Clooney

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17 minutes ago, satyanash said:

Cristobal has explicitly built/structured the program at Oregon in the model of Nick Saban's, and he's said as much. If we were fine with hiring Saban, we should be fine with hiring Cristobal. It's a (pretty meaningless) difference of degrees. Cristobal also has a very good eye for coordinator hires.

Franklin trying to run what he runs over at Penn State here would be an absolute joke. In six years, through multiple offensive coordinators, he's never had a QB under him throw for more than 30 TDs in a season. How do you think that sort of offensive system will work here? The Big Ten lets him get away with that because it's a conference completely devoid of offensive imagination, other than Urban Meyer who jumped on the spread bandwagon and proceeded to dominate the conference. Meanwhile, we already have a coach who can't bring himself to go all-out and run up the score through the air. Franklin would be more of the same.

You think the B1G is devoid of offensive imagination? Have you ever watched Minnesota, Purdue, or Indiana in the past few years? Slowly but surely, teams up there are retiring their old offenses. Both schools in Michigan are adapting, though neither has been successful yet. Nebraska runs a spread option offense. I get that a lot of their games are tough to watch, but don’t just assume nothing has changed since like 2012 up there.

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UncleSonny

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Just now, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

The perfect candidate is available. If the plan is to pass on the perfect candidate, then who gives a shit what the rest of the plan is?

Oh, absofuckinglutly. My understanding is the Franklin talk is entirely under the premise that Urban says no to Texas, not that we choose to hire anyone else. Hiring Franklin over Urban for moral high ground reasons is fucking nonsensical anyway. 

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DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt

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Just now, UncleSonny said:

 

Oh, absofuckinglutly. My understanding is the Franklin talk is entirely under the premise that Urban says no to Texas, not that we choose to hire anyone else. Hiring Franklin over Urban for moral high ground reasons is fucking nonsensical anyway. 

If Urban isn’t the head coach at Texas next year, it’s because Texas chose for that to be the case. 

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Fud

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23 minutes ago, texasstrong12 said:

A couple 9 win seasons and 2 ranked seasons. And in a tougher conference. 

I'm not arguing Franklin won big at Vanderbilt but his results have definitely been better than Campbell's at a similar level school. 

 

 

To me, the results look similar 

Conference records:

Franklin

2-6

5-3

4-4

Campbell

2-7

5-4

6-3

5-4

3-0

Maybe Franklin was more impressive at Vanderbilt than Campbell has been at ISU, I don't know, but it's weird to say that one has been successful while the other hasn't been 

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closetojumping

closetojumping 62141

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20 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Urban isn’t going to say no. It’s the biggest layup in coaching search history. Sit back and watch us shit down our leg, it should be entertaining.

I can’t decide whether there’s anything to the stuff I’m hearing but it’s certainly not coming from the UT side. One of the things going on is that the (now adult, I believe?) daughters do not want him to return to coaching. 

I have two daughters that I love dearly and they are both as alpha as it gets, and I can’t fathom either or both of them convincing me not to do something I know I damned well that I want to do. Who knows though?

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closetohumping

closetohumping 17386

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57 minutes ago, closetojumping said:

You will be able to knock me over with a feather if Texas runs the table to 8-2 from here. The HC has a pathological need to play games close, and yet he has no attention to details, weak grey matter in his skull, and no fucking sack to do what needs to be done with the game on the line. I expect him to choke his way to 5-5, but I concede that 6-0 on the way to 8-2 is entirely possible. It will just be shocking.

Good point. Franklin will absolutely be more expensive than Meyer. If anyone ever argues the $$ angle as to why Texas couldn't sign Urban Meyer:

1) They should be permabanned for being idiots

2) They'd have to be talking about someone like Matt Campbell, as most anyone else has a significant buyout and is already earning $4+ as well.

It's fine to be opposed to a hire for whatever reasons you choose, but to then come back in the same post and cite Mullen and Cristobal as better options is ... kind of amazing.

Mullen will never win the SEC while at UF. He's building his usual paper tiger based off of sketchy recruiting choices. He's not Tom Herman, don't get me wrong. He'll steadily have them at 8-4/10-2 regular seasons, hunchbacking them all the way to "solid". Calling him far superior to Franklin, morally, coaching-wise, recruiting-wise, whatever, is laughable. 

Cristobal is flatly corrupt in recruiting. They might as well just hire Barry Switzer. Whatever the issues are with Meyer, he's not fundamentally corrupt when it comes to recruiting. I am not sure Cristobal could conduct the clean recruitment of a fucking saint. Beyond that, he's done less as a coach than Franklin and has shown his ass repeatedly in end of game situations.

Finally, Nike wants to Texas to be good. They want Oregon to be good. They don't want one of those schools being good to ruin the chances at the other school. Nike will have a voice whenever they feel it is required. Also, Phil Knight and Meyer are buddies, and there's some smoke around PK actually helping recruit UM to lending an ear to the Texas money players. 

Yep Bobby Burton said we will not pursue Cristobal.  Cristobal would have our OL in great shape though.

33 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

Herman is better than Mack. I'm not talking 2005 Mack. I'm talking cruise control, passive aggressive, FUPM Mack. 

Yea, no thanks on Mack

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George Clooney

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I agree with @texasstrong12 that Franklin is the most proven choice if Meyer says no. There are several things to like and dislike about his program in State College so far. One thing to like is their evaluation and development of players. They’ve had 17 players picked in the past three drafts, and they’ll likely have about six more picked in ‘21. He made a great hire at DC in Brent Pry. He’s had mixed results at OC, and assuming Ciarrocca works out, he’d be 2/4 there. He hasn’t quite locked down PA in recruiting, and that’s especially evident in the ‘21 class because they’re only going to get 1/10 of the state’s top prospects. 
 

I think he’s like Mack in terms of just coaching football. He isn’t like him off the field in recruiting and dealing with boosters because he rubs a lot of people the wrong way. However, it’s not so bad that it negatively affects the trajectory of their team; it just limits their ceiling. Additionally, they’ve had drug issues up there. From what I can tell, it’s not a huge issue because the worst players have been caught with is LSD (and I think it was just two players, but I could be wrong). One thing he handled really well was the 2016 offseason with respect to team leadership. He could tell before camp that several players in the locker room didn’t respect him and the team captains, and he put his ego aside and just listened to them in order to gain their trust back.

I’d really like to see him leave PSU because it’d possibly make Greg Schiano’s job easier, but the Rutgers job is difficult no matter what so it’s not like it’d actually help. 

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texasstrong12

texasstrong12 4668

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Just now, Fud said:

To me, the results look similar 

Conference records:

Franklin

2-6

5-3

4-4

Campbell

2-7

5-4

6-3

5-4

3-0

Maybe Franklin was more impressive at Vanderbilt than Campbell has been at ISU, I don't know, but it's weird to say that one has been successful while the other hasn't been 

Top 25 seasons at Iowa State and Vandy: 

Franklin 2

Campbell 0

Winning percentage: 

Franklin 61.5%

Campbell 53% 

Bowl record: 

Franklin 2-1

Campbell 1-2

Franklin's results were definitely better at Vanderbilt and I would argue it's even tougher to win there than Iowa State. That in combination with the fact that Franklin has proven he can also produce top 10 type results in a P5 conference at Penn State makes it a no brainer over Campbell. 

The idea that Campbell could produce top 10ish type seasons at Texas is nothing more than a hope and prayer. Maybe it would happen but there's no proof it would. 

 

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Dilligas

Dilligas 664

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2 minutes ago, closetojumping said:

I can’t decide whether there’s anything to the stuff I’m hearing but it’s certainly not coming from the UT side. One of the things going on is that the (now adult, I believe?) daughters do not want him to return to coaching. 

I have two daughters that I love dearly and they are both as alpha as it gets, and I can’t fathom either or both of them convincing me not to do something I know I damned well that I want to do. Who knows though?

Well shit if the younguns have flown the coop seems like a much simpler decision as they now have their own lives going on. Make millions coaching football in Austin. Of course he has a pretty good gig now, as far as dollars are concerned. But limited ego advancement.

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George Clooney

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4 minutes ago, closetojumping said:

I can’t decide whether there’s anything to the stuff I’m hearing but it’s certainly not coming from the UT side. One of the things going on is that the (now adult, I believe?) daughters do not want him to return to coaching. 

I have two daughters that I love dearly and they are both as alpha as it gets, and I can’t fathom either or both of them convincing me not to do something I know I damned well that I want to do. Who knows though?

I think you’re right about his daughters not wanting him to coach anymore. I think one of them has a young child, and they’ve essentially told him not to coach because they’re afraid the stress would kill him.

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Hank_Hill

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1 minute ago, George Clooney said:

I think you’re right about his daughters not wanting him to coach anymore. I think one of them has a young child, and they’ve essentially told him not to coach because they’re afraid the stress would kill him.

image.png.07b94abb4c318ec557cde5df2341ca1b.png

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Deej

Deej 76524

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Just now, George Clooney said:

I think you’re right about his daughters not wanting him to coach anymore. I think one of them has a young child, and they’ve essentially told him not to coach because they’re afraid the stress would kill him.

Has anyone explained to them that, at $10 million a year, he'd be leaving them more money when the stress kills him?

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936horn

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Will you idiots shut the fuck up about Franklin? If we fuck up the easiest lay up hire of all time here by skipping on Meyer for some reason just fucking turn the television off for the next decade because we will continue to wander through purgatory with occasional seasons in CFB hell. There is zero reason to give one iota of a fuck about the next 5-10 years if we don’t hire literally the second best living coach. But hey at least we will have the moral high ground lmao. 

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RGBIII

RGBIII 22798

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Super K-TFB....

I know there has been a lot of twitter talk about the desire by some Texas fans to see Texas hire Urban Meyer.

Of course much of this is premature. Herman still has a path to redemption – make it to the Big 12 championship and win.

But I have now heard from multiple folks that back channel donor talk dealing with Urban has already begun.

I have no idea what that means about the potential for the hire to materialize but I can say it seems it’s not just a discussion happening on twitter.

 

its happening the office GIF

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LTtxfan

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16 minutes ago, closetojumping said:

There’s almost no chance of it. Someone should post the buyout info. 

Elsewhere in the contract, Penn State upgraded the buyout terms to make it more costly for Franklin to leave, at least initially. Franklin would owe Penn State $5 million if he leaves for an NFL or college coaching job this season. His previous buyout for the 2020 season was $1 million.

https://www.mcall.com/sports/penn-state/mc-spt-penn-state-football-james-franklin-contract-20200226-bqve5cmohnbi7ppgfsrnbbzgaq-story.html

ERtncQeXsAEsIyZ?format=jpg&name=small

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Not a cat

Not a cat 5615

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I am definitely not on the franklin train, but putting yourself in CDC's shoes, hiring Franklin potentially solves his 2 biggest problems- 1) get rid of a coach everybody hates, and 2) get franklin to tell the players to sing the eyes.

Notice that win championships and skull fuck the rest of college football is not in that top 2.  We're gonna fuck this up, aren't we?

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Fud

Fud 9545

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12 minutes ago, texasstrong12 said:

Top 25 seasons at Iowa State and Vandy: 

Franklin 2

Campbell 0

Winning percentage: 

Franklin 61.5%

Campbell 53% 

Bowl record: 

Franklin 2-1

Campbell 1-2

Franklin's results were definitely better at Vanderbilt and I would argue it's even tougher to win there than Iowa State. That in combination with the fact that Franklin has proven he can also produce top 10 type results in a P5 conference at Penn State makes it a no brainer over Campbell. 

The idea that Campbell could produce top 10ish type seasons at Texas is nothing more than a hope and prayer. Maybe it would happen but there's no proof it would. 

 

Again, their conference records are similar to me between those two jobs, so I fail to see how one was successful while the other wasn’t 

I’m not arguing that Campbell is a better hire than Franklin. Franklin is a better bet since he’s at the highest profile job of all of these coaches aside from Urban, so he’d have the easiest learning curve. Plus he’d kill it in recruiting here 

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Burt Macklin

Burt Macklin 18989

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50 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

He’s the only choice. Either hire him or keep Herman.

This is stupid. Herman needs to go regardless. 

46 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Urban isn’t going to say no. It’s the biggest layup in coaching search history. Sit back and watch us shit down our leg, it should be entertaining.

 

33 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

If Urban isn’t the head coach at Texas next year, it’s because Texas chose for that to be the case. 

You have no clue whether Urban is willing to take the job no matter how many times you keep saying it. 

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