Tom "the turtle" Herman [Lame Duck or greatest 5d chess player ever?]

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

Just now, Vic Mackey said:

A lot of great coaches are assholes. At any level. But no one gives a shit when you are winning. As long as it isn't Baylor type shit but that's way beyond just being an asshole.

Look at Parcells and Popovich. They were as smug and condescending as you can get. Saban as well. And they list goes on. I'd rather have that than what Charlie Strong brought.

I never said otherwise. Saban, Popovich and Parcells have this hardware in clear cabinets that allows them to be assholes. Even when thy lose. Herman does not. 

[Vic Mackey 46,932]

I’m not downplaying our record. At all. No one, you included expected us to be 5-1 after UMD at this point in the season, and we’re all happy to be here. But I’m also cognizant that we very nearly lost to Tulsa at home and that the conversations would be different if the KSU TE hadn’t dropped a wide open TD pass two weeks ago. 

We were an easy dropped INT from losing the USC national championship game, too. You can play the what if game all day long in sports. We were an easy dropped INT against Tech from going to a national championship that year. But both of those plays happened as they did and we got the results we did. What ifs don't change the scoreboard.

[texasstrong12 4,668]

3 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

There it is. “You’re just a Herman hater!”. Fuck that noise. I was indifferent to his hire and rightfully roasted his ass for his staff, game management and outcomes through Maryland of this year. I’ve said next to nothing since. 

Youre another one that apparently has to have some time frame after a win before anyone can say anything less than glowing about the program. 

This entire slap fest originated because someone wanted to talk shit about arrogant Tom and I called them on it. 

I was indifferent to the Herman hire too. Matter of fact, I didn't want Texas to hire Herman. 

I'm not here bitching about how a coach acts. If you want to criticize the performance on the field that's one thing. When you start criticizing how a coach acts it just comes across as personal with an axe to grind. 

Others might care how Herman acts but I certainly don't. Like I said, I'm not trying to be buddies with the guy. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

This isn't the "celebrate our win over OU" thread.  This is the "fire Tom Herman" thread.  So, the question is, should he be fired?  The answer remains E) Not enough information given.

Yes, we seem to have turned it around from a bad loss at Maryland and a lame victory at Tulsa.  But this one win, as fantastical as it may be, does not get little Tommy Mensa completely out of the termination woods.  The same factors that cost us Maryland and almost cost us the lead in Dallas mean Tommy Boy could still fuck this up, and royally at that.

Herman has not yet learned to coach from a lead or a position of dominance.  He seems to have the underdog thing more or less down.

I thought the for game stretch starting with USC would determine whether an ultimatum was made before Tom’s third year. He’s passed that test. But yeah, he’s still learning big lessons on the job. 

[TwiceHorn 31,262]

I think the bottom line is Tom Herman is immature as a person and as a division 1 football coach.  He's also fairly immature in terms of pure age, he's literally not mature.

 

The good news is that most immature people grow out of it.  I'm certainly willing to give him the chance to do so.  It appears that he is growing into the job, but it is not yet determined.

[Vic Mackey 46,932]

I never said otherwise. Saban, Popovich and Parcells have this hardware in clear cabinets that allows them to be assholes. Even when thy lose. Herman does not. 

I'm pretty sure those guys had that attitude their entire tenure. It didn't come about just after they started winning.

And Herman is only in his 2nd year here. There was no real hardware to get at UH. He made that program relevant on a national scale. He had some poor losses but overall, he did everything he was ever going to do there.

And so far here, he's doing what he was brought here to do. I'm not sure what more y'all want at this point?

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

2 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

16 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

I’m not downplaying our record. At all. No one, you included expected us to be 5-1 after UMD at this point in the season, and we’re all happy to be here. But I’m also cognizant that we very nearly lost to Tulsa at home and that the conversations would be different if the KSU TE hadn’t dropped a wide open TD pass two weeks ago. 

Read more  

We were an easy dropped INT from losing the USC national championship game, too. You can play the what if game all day long in sports. We were an easy dropped INT against Tech from going to a national championship that year. But both of those plays happened as they did and we got the results we did. What ifs don't change the scoreboard.

The what if game carries more weight when the possible outcomes involve home losses to Tulsa  instead of road losses to highly ranked teams or MNC’s. 

The larger point that I was making, is, that despite our satisfying record and wins and the rooster routine that goes with it, that we’re damn close to not being where we’re at and a few plays in last games or upcoming ones would put a dent in the shit talking  to others about “arrogant Tom.” 

[Deej 76,542]

30 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Count up dropped TD passes and misse FG’s against the opponents listed, note the final score, and tell me what our record would be had those plays gone differently. 

Maybe following sports isn't for you? So many possible timelines. Your head must be spinning.

[Vic Mackey 46,932]

1 minute ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

The what if game carries more weight when the possible outcomes involve home losses to Tulsa  instead of road losses to highly ranked teams or MNC’s. 

The larger point that I was making, is, that despite our satisfying record and wins and the rooster routine that goes with it, that we’re damn close to not being where we’re at and a few plays in last games or upcoming ones would put a dent in the shit talking  to others about “arrogant Tom.” 

I am not saying we are back or Herman is perfect but so far, he's doing what he was brought here to do. The Maryland losses are frustrating but he saved the season both times after. Both are inexcusable but he's definitely on the right track for me. I wanted Herman and am happy overall with him. No coach is perfect and he can still improve for sure but I think he will.

[Not a Sock 2,308]

You are a fucking beating. Go watch watch Carrols, Sabans, Urban, Stoops early press conferences and see how much of a dick they where and all the shit the press said about them.

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

31 minutes ago, JOSEYWALES66 said:

That assumes Texas does everything the same after those events which is a dumb assumption to make. 

And it’s a dumb assumption that could have done things differently. 

[Irish Wrist Watch 1,349]

If Herman had been a defensive guru ala Strong, we would have gotten buttfucked last Saturday. Fortunately, he was an OC on a Nat'l Championship team and has probably realized that Beck is a problem -  and Herman is the answer. He's put on his offensive cap again and based on what we saw Saturday, this team is off and running - and gunning. It's gonna be a fun season. Real goddamn fun.

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

1 minute ago, Not a Sock said:

You are a fucking beating. Go watch watch Carrols, Sabans, Urban, Stoops early press conferences and see how much of a dick they where and all the shit the press said about them.

Why don’t you provide some links to early press conferences front hose coaches and I’ll take it under consideration. 

The arrogant Tom monicker is more than just about press conferences. 

[texasstrong12 4,668]

18 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

I'm pretty sure those guys had that attitude their entire tenure. It didn't come about just after they started winning.

 

It's hilarious that he thinks those coaches just all of a sudden became assholes after they started winning. They were assholes long before they won big. 

Herman might not ever win big like those coaches but those coaches acted the same before they had hardware. Popovich in particular. Popovich was a huge dick to the media after they questioned his hiring and terrible first year with the Spurs.  

Parcells, Herman, Popovich, and Saban are dicks because they are dicks. That's just who they are. It has nothing to do with "hey we won big so now we can act like assholes."

Edited October 9, 2018 by texasstrong12

[Machinator 32,097]

2 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

The arrogant Tom monicker is more than just about press conferences. 

This is really the point that deserves more nuance. Herman being a hard-headed, modern day Plato during press conferences is hardly worth the space it's taking up on this thread.

His stubbornness in personnel usage, staff decisions, and game managment are more than worthy of discussion.

[Pam Cummings 9,567]

20 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

I never said otherwise. Saban, Popovich and Parcells have this hardware in clear cabinets that allows them to be assholes. Even when thy lose. Herman does not. 

Those guys were not born with those trophies.

[Tired of Lurking 637]

46 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Are we?

We were never in jeopardy of losing to Tulsa. God I hate that fucking revisionist bullshit. I guess he is counting the meaningless 2 points for SC as a likely loss, too.

[Pam Cummings 9,567]

I also don't understand being mad at a coach for being a dick to the clueless reporters who cover this program.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Pam Cummings

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

4 minutes ago, Tired of Lurking said:

We were never in jeopardy of losing to Tulsa. God I hate that fucking revisionist bullshit. I guess he is counting the meaningless 2 points for SC as a likely loss, too.

They dropped 3 TD’s missed a bunch of field goals and we had to work hard late to put them away. 

Thats close enough.

[Deej 76,542]

If I had to field questions from Kirk Bohls and Chip Brown, I'd be even more of a dick than I usually am.

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

3 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

I also don't understand being mad at a coach being a dick to the clueless reporters who cover this program.

As referenced above it’s deeper than just that, but the clueless reporter you’re referring actually asked a valid and benign question in a respectful manner and Tom showed his ass. 

[texasstrong12 4,668]

3 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

As referenced above it’s deeper than just that, but the clueless reporter you’re referring actually asked a valid and benign question in a respectful manner and Tom showed his ass. 

Wait....are you referring to the Chip Brown question about being perceived as arrogant? 

You really think that was a valid question? 

[Tired of Lurking 637]

but it didn't happen. Did you go through all the film and compile what if scenarios for our mistakes that cost us points? What if Sam threw that bomb to Duv just one yard shorter? Would that negate your KSU bitching since their dropped TD is now rendered meaningless? I am sure we had some drops or incomplete against Tulsa that would have been drive extenders or resulted in points. What about them? Face it, it's a pointless exercise.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Tired of Lurking

[Magus Ossis 2,783]

I thought TH was flawed but quite possibly the guy going into Maryland. After the game, I was almost certain that he was a failure as our HC. At the time, I viewed Tulsa as confirmation of my Maryland opinion. Now that I have more field in my retrospectoscope, I think Tulsa was actually a data point consistent with a trend line toward more consistent success. Our on-field results are not a step function or a smooth curve. We are now to the point that we can beat 3 (then-) ranked teams and @KSU over a 4-week stretch, including punching OU in the mouth. TH’s first full class appears to be well evaluated and (so far) as good as its top-5 ranking would suggest. We are building on top-10 rankings on the field and in 2019 recruiting.

I agree that TH is immature in more than one sense. Some immature specimens fail to live up to their promise, but I have no particular concern that TH is more likely to fail to grow as a successful HC for us than others similarly situated might. Also, some mature specimens age and crumble all-too-soon (post-Colt, anyone?). I also agree that TH’s hires include some that appear to remain uncorrected unforced errors.

For firing to be indicated, replacement has to offer a satisfying probability of improvement. Since we first won a national championship, we have hired 6 head coaches. Of those, zero has both won another national championship and played OU .500. If a guy looks like this standard might be in his reach, we’d be worse than stupid to fire him on performance grounds. If TH covers up rape or wife-beating, I’ll be on the fire him bandwagon. If he craters in terms of W/L or recruiting, same. Being arrogant, per se as opposed to demonstrably leading to failures outlined above, is not on my radar. Saban is not waiting to succeed Herman. Other than hashing out hypotheticals and moot details, I don’t see any real current controversy regarding whether we should fire Herman.

[sushihorn 3,233]

I swear that Tom Herman seems like he's on the spectrum sometimes.  He really doesn't function well in social situations, appears to be massively OCD and quite literal minded.  Not quite Asperger's but something very similar.  What some people perceive as arrogance strikes me as more likely to be a combination of social anxiety, literal mindedness and over focus on the issue at hand.  Look a the way he actually contemplates the questions at a press conference instead of reeling off some glib, pre-arranged coach speak.  Also the way he corrects people about players' names and insists on qualifying his answers. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

1 hour ago, texasstrong12 said:

Wait....are you referring to the Chip Brown question about being perceived as arrogant? 

You really think that was a valid question? 

Y'all's obsession with Chip Brown is nearly clinical in nature.  I have no idea who asked the question, and it was nothing about arrogance. It was something to do with receivers disappearing somewhere in the game, and Herman chose to be an asshole in reply.  Again, that's not nearly the whole reason for arrogant Tom.  Just the cherry on top of another turd delivered in a season opener.

[texasstrong12 4,668]

3 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Y'all's obsession with Chip Brown is nearly clinical in nature.  I have no idea who asked the question, and it was nothing about arrogance. It was something to do with receivers disappearing somewhere in the game, and Herman chose to be an asshole in reply.  Again, that's not nearly the whole reason for arrogant Tom.  Just the cherry on top of another turd delivered in a season opener.

Someone talking about "obsession" when every other page you bring up "arrogant Tom". I'm laughing. The only one here who is obsessed is the person that gets worked up whenever Herman opens his mouth. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by texasstrong12

[NoRagrets 1,125]

This thread is a shit show

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

1 hour ago, Tired of Lurking said:

but it didn't happen. Did you go through all the film and compile what if scenarios for our mistakes that cost us points? What if Sam threw that bomb to Duv just one yard shorter? Would that negate your KSU bitching since their dropped TD is now rendered meaningless? I am sure we had some drops or incomplete against Tulsa that would have been drive extenders or resulted in points. What about them? Face it, it's a pointless exercise.

There's a difference between missing a WR by 10 yards, and receivers dropping balls that hit them in the hands in the end zone.  We missed some FG's along the way ourselves and left points off the board.  Tulsa, for example missed 3 FG's and dropped 3 TD's if my recollection is correct.  Not passes off the mark or what ifs.  Actual hands on the ball in the end zone and not defended by a Texas DB.  We beat them by a TD, and needed a strong final drive to end the game.  That's not revisionist or questionable.  They lost by 7 and easily left 10 points off the board if you only credit them with converting 1 out of 3 opportunities.

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

5 minutes ago, texasstrong12 said:

Someone talking about "obsession" when every other page you bring up "arrogant Tom". I'm laughing. The only one here who is obsessed is the person that gets worked up whenever Herman opens his mouth. 

Actually no.  I replied to one person about "arrogant Tom" and the sandy vaginas who can't handle a hint of criticism after a loss shit all over themselves trying to get to the keyboard to throw turds.

[Pig Bellmont 8,691]

2 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

I’m not downplaying our record. At all. No one, you included expected us to be 5-1 after UMD at this point in the season, and we’re all happy to be here. But I’m also cognizant that we very nearly lost to Tulsa at home and that the conversations would be different if the KSU TE hadn’t dropped a wide open TD pass two weeks ago. 

Cool. Now do the TCU game. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

Just now, Pig Bellmont said:

Cool. Now do the TCU game. 

A modicum of reading comprehension, or actually bothering to read the posts instead of rushing to show your ass would have revealed that I have said several times that we are a few plays away from being .500 with some embarrassing losses mixed with some good wins.  I can go quote the exact posts if you like, but you're not really interested in that.

[Lhorn 4,885]

Some of y’all sound like you are missing butterteeth press conferences. 

[Tired of Lurking 637]

You're really gonna die on that hill. God damn.

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

1 minute ago, Lhorn said:

Some of y’all sound like you are missing butterteeth press conferences. 

Nah, we'd be pissed at his continual passive aggressive swipes at fans.

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

2 minutes ago, Tired of Lurking said:

You're really gonna die on that hill. God damn.

Reverse the exercise.  Imagine Texas plays an away game, gets down a couple of scores, dominates the second half scoring 21 points unanswered and conservatively leaves 10 points off the board in a 7 point loss.  Every last one here would say that we should have won the game, and would point to our multiple dropped TD's and missed FG's.  You can't have it both ways.

[Tired of Lurking 637]

BUT THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

Christ.

[Pig Bellmont 8,691]

Bobby next going to argue how shitty the coaching was for the tOSU 2002 national champions. They may have won their games, but you know like 3 of them were close. 

[Lhorn 4,885]

So where we at?  5-1 beating 3 ranked teams including OU, no 9 ranked and we’re 50/50 whether Tom gets year 3 because scenarios exist where we could have lost some of those games?

[Machinator 32,097]

2 minutes ago, Lhorn said:

So where we at?  5-1 beating 3 ranked teams including OU, no 9 ranked and we’re 50/50 whether Tom gets year 3 because scenarios exist where we could have lost some of those games?

I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that Herman should get fired this year, or next year for that matter.

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

7 minutes ago, Tired of Lurking said:

BUT THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

Christ.

Yeah.  That happened.  Tulsa scored 21points in the second half to our 7.  I did check, it wasn't 21 unanswered.  It was 14 before trading TD's.  The point stands.  Reverse the situation and every UT fan would say we should have won.

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

4 minutes ago, Lhorn said:

So where we at?  5-1 beating 3 ranked teams including OU, no 9 ranked and we’re 50/50 whether Tom gets year 3 because scenarios exist where we could have lost some of those games?

That's missing the arguments being made by a wide mark.

[BurntOrangeSatire, LLC 157]

Just now, Lhorn said:

So where we at?  5-1 beating 3 ranked teams including OU, no 9 ranked and we’re 50/50 whether Tom gets year 3 because scenarios exist where we could have lost some of those games?

No. He's climbing out of the hole he dug himself and his staff after going 0-2 to Maryland with a frustrated fanbase tired of losing. I, and perhaps a lot of fans, are starting to feel better after we lost to Maryland and squeaked it against Tulsa. I'm happy we beat ousux. Not entirely happy how we won in the end. USC is not very good. TCU got beat up on by a top ranked buckeye squad. We nearly coughed it up against ousux who had one of the worst defensive performances in recent memory. Texas has needed to learn how to finish and win for the past decade (let alone win). And we did. For me, complaining about 1 4th quarter after beating a top 10 OU team is better than where we've been by a lot. But there is room for criticism. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1,994]

2 minutes ago, Machinator said:

I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that Herman should get fired this year, or next year for that matter.

I definitely thought the last 4 games would lead to staff decisions being forced and a timeline being given if they had gone poorly.  Tom now has a lot of rope.

[Lhorn 4,885]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

This isn't the "celebrate our win over OU" thread.  This is the "fire Tom Herman" thread.  So, the question is, should he be fired?  The answer remains E) Not enough information given.

 

“I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that Herman should get fired this year, or next year for that matter.“

Edited October 9, 2018 by Lhorn

[Machinator 32,097]

4 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

I definitely thought the last 4 games would lead to staff decisions being forced and a timeline being given if they had gone poorly.  Tom now has a lot of rope.

January and February will be interesting.

[Machinator 32,097]

8 minutes ago, Lhorn said:

“I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that Herman should get fired this year, or next year for that matter.“

I can't help it if one or two users prefer to interpret the thread title literally. And to @TwiceHorn's credit, I don't think he is either. Since the USC win, this has essentially defaulted back to the "complain about the head coach" thread. I've voiced my opinion on having a thread about firing a coach where nobody is actually calling for him to be fired, but that ship sailed a long time ago.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Machinator

[Lhorn 4,885]

I think it’s unrealistic given that we had 6 regular season wins last year to be expecting a product without big flaws at times.  I wish we were kicking in everyone’s ass too but winning with flaws is not a bad place to be after a .500 regular season last year. 

Improvement is what counts right now and I think we can all agree it’s happening. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Lhorn

[usmc0331horn 934]

This thread is dumb.

[Bookman 4,610]

It would be monumentally stupid to fire Tom Herman right now.