Targeting

[wood 11103]

SIAP ... don't hang me. I searched for this topic & couldn't find a thing. Without getting too longwinded, I'll just say it didn't take long into our first game before I was reminded of one of the things that driving me away from CFB the most these days. And not just because we were on the wrong end of it. We see this shit in lots of games. The runner lowers his head into the defender, who is already low, and the defender gets the flag and gets tossed. It's crazy. It's like drawing a foul in basketball. I gotta say I'm as big into punishing obvious targeting and other cheap shots as just about anyone is, but damn, what we saw called on Gary Johnson in the Maryland game just isn't a cheap shot, or even an intentional blow to the head. Imho it's not even targeting. Corch said he thinks maybe it should be a penalty, but it shouldn't be an ejection. I disagree. I don't even think that should be penalized. The QB slid late, right in front of Johnson,  with both guys headed straight at one another, & after GJ was already broken down in textbook tackling form. GJ's pad level was already very low. The qb just slid down into it. At that point, it is just not humanly possibly for anyone to react in time to keep from hitting the guy high. What y'all think?

https://www.hookem.com/story/texas-notable-number-the-longhorns-the-ncaas-targeting-rule-and-the-number-6/?utm_source=newspaper&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=5753069&ecmp=newspaper_email&&iaccess=ZWQyODQ5YTgtZDAxYS00ZmVhLTlkM2EtZWY5NWMzM2EwZTg2fDkvNi8yMDE4IDU6MTA6NDEgQU18ZW1haWw=

Quote

“I have been in favor and will continue to be in favor of — you know, there’s many different sports that legislate intent when determining personal fouls and ejections and so on and so forth, flagrant ones, flagrant twos, yellow cards, red cards, whatever you want to do,” Herman said. “So I get it. A bang-bang thing like that happens and you make contact with your shoulder to his head as he’s sliding. Should it be a penalty? Probably. But should the kid get kicked out of the game? I don’t think so. I really don’t.”

During the first week of the season, SMU linebacker Trevor Denbow and Texas Tech defensive back Desmon Smith also were removed for targeting penalties. Texas A&M had two defenders kicked out against Northwestern State. After Michigan safety Josh Metellus was called for targeting, his replacement was subsequently torched for a 43-yard touchdown in a 24-17 loss to Notre Dame.

Miami defensive back Trajan Bandy also was flagged for targeting on the Hurricanes’ fourth defensive snap against LSU. Miami defensive coordinator Manny Diaz echoed Herman’s sentiments about judging intent, saying that “If that’s going to be a penalty, that’s fine, that should be a 15-yard penalty. That should not be a disqualification. There’s not another sport where we disqualify a player for a technique that had no malintent. It would be like throwing a guy out of an NBA game just for a foul.”

UT coaches will continue to instruct players to go low on tackles, Herman said. Defensive end Charles Omenihu said that defenders just have to play smart and “you’ve got to understand when the quarterback is sliding that they are going to protect the quarterback.” The Longhorns, though, don’t expect to change their mindset on the field.

“Me being on the defensive side, I love to hit,” said senior defensive tackle Chris Nelson, who had five tackles. “Everything is not going to work out in your favor. The way the rules are going, you’ve just got to take it in because you can’t do anything about it. Like the coaches say, control what you can control but at the end of the day, I’m still going to hit hard.”

 

Edited September 6, 2018 by wood

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

If that Texas player had been a split second earlier, and the QB's chin had been up a bit more, we may have seen a death on national TV.  He would have separated the kids head from his spine.  That was dirty as shit.  There was no effort to roll away or pull up, he was all in all the way. Just my $.02 of course.

[Richter 2229]

I don't think it was dirty like he wanted to injure him or anything, but it was overly aggressive and a dumb play by GJ that was a legitimate penalty.  All GJ had to do was touch him as he slid.  He definitely extended into the Maryland QB with his legs.  In this day and age with the rules being what they are, defenders have to be pretty dumb to hit a sliding QB.

[NTVTXN 1432]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

If that Texas player had been a split second earlier, and the QB's chin had been up a bit more, we may have seen a death on national TV.  He would have separated the kids head from his spine.  That was dirty as shit.  There was no effort to roll away or pull up, he was all in all the way. Just my $.02 of course.

I’m going to have to agree. To a point, that is.

Meaning, I think GJ could have pulled-up/rolled away.  He’s a freakishly talented athlete.  Freakishly talented athletes see “things” develop.

What I think he was doing was trying to hard to make statement and create a TO.

How long has the rule been that if a QB is sliding feet first you pull up to avoid contact?

Once that leg/hip touches the ground, they’re down.   That’s my $0.02

[Zavala 1384]

 

That call was bullshit. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, NTVTXN said:

I’m going to have to agree. To a point, that is.

Meaning, I think GJ could have pulled-up/rolled away.  He’s a freakishly talented athlete.  Freakishly talented athletes see “things” develop.

What I think he was doing was trying to hard to make statement and create a TO.

How long has the rule been that if a QB is sliding feet first you pull up to avoid contact?

Once that leg/hip touches the ground, they’re down.   That’s my $0.02

Yeah, but once the QB is feet first you have to pull off.  I know he's a kid, he was amped, and trying to make a play, but you have to be smart there and let it go.  That's not the play to make a statement with other than trying to say I'm dirty or dumb.  

I'm pretty sure it's been in place a while.  If he'd not been up into the guys head, it wouldn't have been nearly the big deal it was.

[IDIOTsavant 8437]

Somewhat agree with OP. Their feet were damn near touching when the QB started his slide. If you want to give yourself up for protection, that's fine,  but if you wait too long too declare that you're giving yourself up, then that was your choice.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Zavala said:

 

That call was bullshit. 

You're 100% wrong. It was a dirty hit.

[RadiologyHorn 133]

No reason the refs can’t judge intent.

[wood 11103]

6 minutes ago, IDIOTsavant said:

Somewhat agree with OP. Their feet were damn near touching when the QB started his slide. If you want to give yourself up for protection, that's fine,  but if you wait too long too declare that you're giving yourself up, then that was your choice.

This is where I am. There just wasn't time to pull up. Human reactions are only so quick. See it all the time. The defender is low, where he should be, and the runner drops down into him, then the defender gets flagged.

[Zavala 1384]

16 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

If that Texas player had been a split second earlier, and the QB's chin had been up a bit more, we may have seen a death on national TV.  He would have separated the kids head from his spine.  That was dirty as shit.  There was no effort to roll away or pull up, he was all in all the way. Just my $.02 of course.

 

8 minutes ago, Richter said:

I don't think it was dirty like he wanted to injure him or anything, but it was overly aggressive and a dumb play by GJ that was a legitimate penalty.  All GJ had to do was touch him as he slid.  He definitely extended into the Maryland QB with his legs.  In this day and age with the rules being what they are, defenders have to be pretty dumb to hit a sliding QB.

The QB made the decision to slide TOO LATE. 

Don't watch it in slow motion, watch it full speed, and watch GJ.

It was 3rd and 9, the QB takes off full speed running strait up, doesn't "give himself up" until 

42:58 play starts

43:03 players are 7 yards away, QB is running full speed and GJ has started to break down so he doesn't get juked

43:04 Players are two yards away, QB begins to slide, at this point GJ has already pushed his momentum forward to go for the tackle at the waist. Right here, if he goes "high" that is a penalty for going helmet to helmet, so he goes low.

still on 43:04 all this happened within 1 sec, he broke down, went for the tackle as the qb was sliding and made the contact helmet to helmet

 

If the QB is allowed to give himself up, he should do it before the defenders are two yards away. If the QB is protected from getting hit, he scrambles and becomes a ball runner without the ability to hit him as you tackle him, they should just call him down as soon as he's touched. Put a different color jersey on the QB and protect him from getting tackled in the open field. Because that is all GJ was trying to do, is not get beat in the open field, so he broke down and went low. The QB drops at literally the last second, when GJ is two yards away, and this is what brought his helmet down to the level where GJ is going to hit him.

It's tough to impossible being a defender against a running QB, if you are going to get thrown out of the game for trying to tackle the guy, because he can "give himself up" at the last possible second. It's a bad rule, if the QB doesn't give himself up with defenders 4 or 5 yards away, they are already going to be initiating the tackle, so that extra yard he's trying to pick up for the first down isn't compatible with "give yourself up". Can't have it both ways. 

 

[Huckleberry 32685]

Hill went into his slide before Johnson went down. Johnson lowered his shoulder for the hit after Hill was already sliding. This image is obviously after Hill has already started his sliding motion and there's still time for Johnson to pull off, and Johnson still hasn't lowered his shoulder.

imgur

It was a bad play and Johnson paid the consequence along with his team.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Zavala said:

 

The QB made the decision to slide TOO LATE. 

Don't watch it in slow motion, watch it full speed, and watch GJ.

It was 3rd and 9, the QB takes off full speed running strait up, doesn't "give himself up" until 

42:58 play starts

43:03 players are 7 yards away, QB is running full speed and GJ has started to break down so he doesn't get juked

43:04 Players are two yards away, QB begins to slide, at this point GJ has already pushed his momentum forward to go for the tackle at the waist. Right here, if he goes "high" that is a penalty for going helmet to helmet, so he goes low.

still on 43:04 all this happened within 1 sec, he broke down, went for the tackle as the qb was sliding and made the contact helmet to helmet

 

If the QB is allowed to give himself up, he should do it before the defenders are two yards away. If the QB is protected from getting hit, he scrambles and becomes a ball runner without the ability to hit him as you tackle him, they should just call him down as soon as he's touched. Put a different color jersey on the QB and protect him from getting tackled in the open field. Because that is all GJ was trying to do, is not get beat in the open field, so he broke down and went low. The QB drops at literally the last second, when GJ is two yards away, and this is what brought his helmet down to the level where GJ is going to hit him.

It's tough to impossible being a defender against a running QB, if you are going to get thrown out of the game for trying to tackle the guy, because he can "give himself up" at the last possible second. It's a bad rule, if the QB doesn't give himself up with defenders 4 or 5 yards away, they are already going to be initiating the tackle, so that extra yard he's trying to pick up for the first down isn't compatible with "give yourself up". Can't have it both ways. 

 

Once he's feet first you can't hit him up in the head. the kid was not trying to avoid hitting his head.  It's pretty clear.

[Gene Parmesan 3992]

Love the Zapruder analysis.  I imagine when the roles are reversed will continue to understand the complexity of the issue.

[Huckleberry 32685]

1 minute ago, Zavala said:

43:04 Players are two yards away, QB begins to slide, at this point GJ has already pushed his momentum forward to go for the tackle at the waist. Right here, if he goes "high" that is a penalty for going helmet to helmet, so he goes low.

 

This is just wrong. Hill is already sliding and Johnson has dropped his hips but hasn't started lowering his shoulder. It was a bad play. The reason Johnson got this low was specifically to hit Hill on the slide:

imgur>

That is not a form tackle, that is delivering a blow with a shoulder. There is no reason for Johnson to be that low with his head in that position unless he is aiming for a very low target like, say, a sliding quarterback.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Gene Parmesan said:

Love the Zapruder analysis.  I imagine when the roles are reversed will continue to understand the complexity of the issue.

And that's part of the problem, shit happens so fast in a game, it's hard to react both physically and mentally at game speed, and try to ascertain a players intent.

[SHOOTER12 8787]

16 minutes ago, Zavala said:

 

That call was bullshit. 

I just watched that replay about 10 minutes ago.  Yes, it was a horrible hit, very dangerous to put it lightly.  However, I am conflicted about the call and maybe that's just the "homer" in me.

Defensive players for years now are taught to "go low" to avoid penalties and helmet to helmet contact. Was GJ's, or any of the other ejections a result of just trying to stay low?   If a defensive player has already positioned himself to go low, and is past the point of recovery, then the ball carrier goes down/slides etc can that be taken into consideration when calling the foul?   I'm not saying that is what happened in any of the cases this week, and will go back and watch GJ's play later this evening, but wonder if that wasn't at least part of the factors in play.

[JBJ 3647]

It was called correctly.

I think they can improve the targeting rule, though.  There's too many plays where a defenseless player ducks into the contact that clearly is not targetting the head or neck. First clip is an example.

 

[TwiceHorn 31184]

26 minutes ago, RadiologyHorn said:

No reason the refs can’t judge intent.

The point here, as it is in much of "strict liability" law, is that the act prohibited is so dangerous or otherwise negative that it doesn't matter whether it was intentional or purely accidental.  Here it has been adjudged that intention is irrelevant because the result is so negative.  It puts a major onus on the hitting player, and that is the goal of the rule.

 

The rule is not designed to relieve officials of determining intent, but that is a side effect.

 

As noted immediately above, I think a legitimate fine-tune is to ascertain whether the helmet-to-helmet contact occurred as the sole result of the actions of the hitting player, or the player hit.

Edited September 6, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[Zavala 1384]

12 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

You're 100% wrong. It was a dirty hit.

Agree to disagree my man. 

My previous post showed he had less than a second, probably around a half second to react to the QB sliding. Driver perception-reaction time is generally 2.5 seconds. I'm sure younger guys like GJ have around 1.5 second reaction time. That's still not enough time to change your tackle when the guy is two yards away sliding as you are trying to dive for the tackle.

[sidis 9713]

love gary johnson...he, along with malcolm brown and poona, is one of the few actual defensive players we have had in the midst of our wandering the desert since 2010.

i absolutely do not think he had any malicious intent or was trying to do anything inappropriate.  however, that was a pretty classic case of targeting mixed in with a bit of bad luck from a timing perspective.

[Hozz 1012]

Targeting as it is written is a terrible rule.  Football is a violent sport played by males.  Its players and fans understand this.  Targeting is the rules equivalent of virtue signaling.  

The rule needs to be rewritten to take into account both intent and whether or not the ball carrier moves during or after the tackler has lowered himself for the hit.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

what was this zavala idiot's handle on the old board?

[Zavala 1384]

2 minutes ago, Hozz said:

Targeting as it is written is a terrible rule.  Football is a violent sport played by males.  Its players and fans understand this.  Targeting is the rules equivalent of virtue signaling.  

The rule needs to be rewritten to take into account both intent and whether or not the ball carrier moves during or after the tackler has lowered himself for the hit.

This. The "give yourself up" should be done while guys are still 5 yards away. Once you don't give yourself up with guys getting close, it's too late.

The QB wanted to get the first down, as shown in the first snip, so he waited to "give himself up" until GJ was two (2) yards away. That's not enough time to pull off, less that a sec isn't enough time to see that and react to it.

Oh, the times given in my post are from the video link below, forgot to post it. 

43:03 running full speed

43:04 hit happens as he's sliding

 

Edited September 6, 2018 by Zavala

[Zepol87 9163]

34 minutes ago, Zavala said:

 

That call was bullshit. 

Yea you are wrong on this again.

It was targeting. He starts to slide almost 5 yards away and GJ wasn't already lowering his hips at that point. Might not have had injury intent but targeting was clear and a dumb hit as well. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

11 minutes ago, Zavala said:

Agree to disagree my man. 

My previous post showed he had less than a second, probably around a half second to react to the QB sliding. Driver perception-reaction time is generally 2.5 seconds. I'm sure younger guys like GJ have around 1.5 second reaction time. That's still not enough time to change your tackle when the guy is two yards away sliding as you are trying to dive for the tackle.

Yeah, no worries.  Everyone sees the game thru their own eyes and perceptions.

[Hank Chinaski 6310]

I tend to agree with OP. I think the spirit of the rule is right - there's simply too much evidence of the negative consequences of head injuries to not try to do something to make the game safer. 

The problem is that I don't think these types of hits can really be avoided. Obviously in some cases, they can, but I'm not sure that many of these situations in which guys are getting ejected are actually intentional. 

The rule is written and enforced as though everything is static. These guys are moving very quickly and there is simply not time to always adjust one's body position relative to another moving body. 

I agree that it is a factor that has made me less interested in football. I'm not saying they shouldn't have the rule, because if it makes the game safer they absolutely should. But...it makes it less enjoyable to me because it results in often unjust ejections, penalties (that weren't 10 years ago) that impact the game, and a game that favors offense too much. 

[Viper 12011]

Herman was right on Rewind that the rule needs to be adjusted and take intent into account when ejecting someone, but he was wrong to think this was an instance of that need. It was a correct call.

[GreenspointTexas 9556]

Cedric Griffin and Matt Lionhart

[FloridaHorn 4735]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

If that Texas player had been a split second earlier, and the QB's chin had been up a bit more, we may have seen a death on national TV.  He would have separated the kids head from his spine.  That was dirty as shit.  There was no effort to roll away or pull up, he was all in all the way. Just my $.02 of course.

It was definitely a dirty play by today's definitions. The fact is, once the QB begins to slide, he is down. Hitting him after that is no different than hitting him if he was laying on the ground. The rule is to stop stupid plays exactly like this one.

[Huckleberry 32685]

31 minutes ago, JBJ said:

It was called correctly.

I think they can improve the targeting rule, though.  There's too many plays where a defenseless player ducks into the contact that clearly is not targetting the head or neck. First clip is an example.

Yes, that one is a great example. The BYU defender is clearly lining up the Utah receiver's chest and the receiver is the one who lowers his head for contact. The only dangerous play on that one was made by the Utah player.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, FloridaHorn said:

It was definitely a dirty play by today's definitions. The fact is, once the QB begins to slide, he is down. Hitting him after that is no different than hitting him if he was laying on the ground. The rule is to stop stupid plays exactly like this one.

It's a bit bush league as well IMO.  The player is basically defenseless.

[Spawn of Cthulhu 2241]

I'm pretty sure that any time the QB's helmet comes off in a hit like this that there's going to be a targeting call. Regardless of perceived intent, it happened and was a dangerous shot.

[ImissWallyPryor 9045]

57 minutes ago, Zavala said:

 

The QB made the decision to slide TOO LATE. 

Don't watch it in slow motion, watch it full speed, and watch GJ.

It was 3rd and 9, the QB takes off full speed running strait up, doesn't "give himself up" until 

42:58 play starts

43:03 players are 7 yards away, QB is running full speed and GJ has started to break down so he doesn't get juked

43:04 Players are two yards away, QB begins to slide, at this point GJ has already pushed his momentum forward to go for the tackle at the waist. Right here, if he goes "high" that is a penalty for going helmet to helmet, so he goes low.

still on 43:04 all this happened within 1 sec, he broke down, went for the tackle as the qb was sliding and made the contact helmet to helmet

 

If the QB is allowed to give himself up, he should do it before the defenders are two yards away. If the QB is protected from getting hit, he scrambles and becomes a ball runner without the ability to hit him as you tackle him, they should just call him down as soon as he's touched. Put a different color jersey on the QB and protect him from getting tackled in the open field. Because that is all GJ was trying to do, is not get beat in the open field, so he broke down and went low. The QB drops at literally the last second, when GJ is two yards away, and this is what brought his helmet down to the level where GJ is going to hit him.

It's tough to impossible being a defender against a running QB, if you are going to get thrown out of the game for trying to tackle the guy, because he can "give himself up" at the last possible second. It's a bad rule, if the QB doesn't give himself up with defenders 4 or 5 yards away, they are already going to be initiating the tackle, so that extra yard he's trying to pick up for the first down isn't compatible with "give yourself up". Can't have it both ways. 

 

Every other Texas defender in those shots held up because they knew the QB was sliding. Even before the second pic was taken, GJ had to have known the QB was committing to slide. If it was a Texas QB, we’d all agree with the call. 

[utee94 15742]

Agree it was against the current rules and should have been called. I disagree that he had any intent to injure, but he needs to play much smarter.

Meanwhile  a horse-collar/ripping the helmet off tackle against a Texas player goes completely uncalled...

 

 

[Panama Red 63]

I’d rather see a rule change about QBs sliding. No more sliding. If you commit to run you should expect to be hit. No getting the 1st down and sliding.

[ImissWallyPryor 9045]

I’ve got a bigger problem with ball carriers (esp.QBs) simply lowering their heads just prior to contact. If the defender lowers his head to aim below the head and neck, the h2h call should go against the ball carrier who subsequently lowers his helmet. 

[UncleBuck 6444]

1 hour ago, NTVTXN said:

How long has the rule been that if a QB is sliding feet first you pull up to avoid contact?

Once that leg/hip touches the ground, they’re down.   That’s my $0.02

My problem with that is that Johnson is already going down into a tackling motion when the QB commits to slide. Sure, Johnson had time to kinda pull up and hop over the slide, but these guys are always worried about their legs. Trying to correct and hop/roll over the slide puts his legs/knees/ankles into the position of getting driven into. Natural reaction is to instead stop the momentum of the player with your shoulders/upper body instead. Take a second to look at your shoulders. Pretty dang close to your head, huh? And they're not moving forward and down without it.

The other problem is that Johnson is already trying to go low. Now the QB is sliding and he has to continue going lower to stay below his head. Had he just gone right through him instead, it'd have probably still been a 15 yard penalty for plowing through the sliding QB with his dick (or he can jump, but like I said, he's probably worried about his lower body there)

Honestly, Johnson could have done worse and continued full speed and laid into the hit, but  he just went low and stood his ground, kinda subconsciously protecting his legs.

 

Just a shitty situation, everything happening too fast, don't give a shit how good of an athlete he is. 

Edited September 6, 2018 by UncleBuck

[Zavala 1384]

2 minutes ago, utee94 said:

Agree it was against the current rules and should have been called. I disagree that he had any intent to injure, but he needs to play much smarter.

Meanwhile  a horse-collar/ripping the helmet off tackle against a Texas player goes completely uncalled...

 

 

@1:21:00 if anyone is interested. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7eyhSaU6O0

 

[ImissWallyPryor 9045]

8 minutes ago, utee94 said:

Agree it was against the current rules and should have been called. I disagree that he had any intent to injure, but he needs to play much smarter.

Meanwhile  a horse-collar/ripping the helmet off tackle against a Texas player goes completely uncalled...

 

 

Yeah, the face mask isn’t just the part that covers the open area of the helmet. It includes everything to where it mounts to the helmet. Can you even make contact to the head and neck area on an upright QB? Hands, forearms, etc. to the head get called all the time. Or am I thinking of the NFL rules?

[Tex Long 4326]

Skirts for "defenseless" players?

[MonkeyDoughnut 10134]

Not a horse collar...look at the slow mo, no grabbing inside anything

 

Rule is:

All players are prohibited from grabbing the inside back collar of the shoulder pads or jersey, the area, or the inside collar of the side of the shoulder pads or jersey, and immediately pulling the ball carrier down. This does not apply to a ball carrier, including a potential passer, who is inside the tackle box.

[ImissWallyPryor 9045]

13 minutes ago, Panama Red said:

I’d rather see a rule change about QBs sliding. No more sliding. If you commit to run you should expect to be hit. No getting the 1st down and sliding.

You might want to rethink that. How about running out of bounds to avoid contact?  Refs should use judgement about whether players slid or ran oob in time for the defender to hold off, but those moves need to be allowed. 

[Extra Anejo 99]

I thought the call was correct. I can guarantee if the Maryland QB had been a UT QB then nobody, including Herman, would be objecting to the call. Yes the Maryland QB slid late but GJ had time to roll off. If there's going to be "targeting" as a violation then this has to be included. The ejection part is debatable, as a rule.

[JBJ 3647]

14 minutes ago, ImissWallyPryor said:

Yeah, the face mask isn’t just the part that covers the open area of the helmet. It includes everything to where it mounts to the helmet.

Can you even make contact to the head and neck area on an upright QB? Hands, forearms, etc. to the head get called all the time. Or am I thinking of the NFL rules?

"Facemask" is anything graspable on the helmet.  Under the back of the helmet, ear holes, top of the mask.

"Hands to the face" does not apply to or against the ball carrier.

"Striking the helmet" does, but that's gotta be an obvious punch or slap thrown.  I've seen a really hard stiff arm called for striking once, but it was legitimately a punch thrown.

Edited September 6, 2018 by JBJ

[UncleBuck 6444]

6 minutes ago, Extra Anejo said:

if the Maryland QB had been a UT QB then nobody, including Herman, would be objecting to the call

I would. It makes me angry in any game I see it, because too often it's a bullshit call and it stands. and a team has to go a full half or more without that player, and some fall-in-line color commentator and broadcaster talk about it like the kid is a monster and stupid for about three minutes. Fuck that.

Granted, I wouldn't be complaining about it on the internet today, but when I saw it I'd call it out.

Edited September 6, 2018 by UncleBuck

[ImissWallyPryor 9045]

9 minutes ago, JBJ said:

"Facemask" is anything graspable on the helmet.  Under the back of the helmet, ear holes, top of the mask.

"Hands to the face" does not apply to or against the ball carrier.

"Striking the helmet" does, but that's gotta be an obvious punch or slap thrown.  I've seen a really hard stiff arm called for striking once, but it was legitimately a punch thrown.

Thanks, but I wasn’t thinking the non-call was a hands-to-the-face situation. The defender grabbed something to yank that helmet off. I was thinking it was either the face mask where it mounts, the ear hole or the left-side bottom of the helmet. Any of those would be a penalty under your explanation.

I thought there was a rule against making any contact directed at the QB’s (if he didn’t become a ball carrier) head or neck, even with a hand.

[staboner 4955]

there are a brazzilian bad targeting calls to get mad about

and yes, gray area here and in all them

however that play by johnson was not a good play. he had some chance to lessen his blow a bit and he didn't not. he seems to constantly be increasing his efforts to hit with his head and shoulder. 

to a point thought its nearly impossible to really stop this. its going to happen from time to time.

just wait till a QB fake slides and then runs around someone for a TD. its going to happen. 

[JBJ 3647]

On that play, I think the defender grabbed the back of the helmet and pulled it forward and down, making it a facemask.

I think you are just thinking of a point of emphasis of Roughing the Passer.  They will usually call it if you come in high, but the only thing actually in the rulebook is that you can't hit a passer below the knee.  Also, out of the pocket, the QB is only a defenseless passer during and after his throwing motion.

Edited September 6, 2018 by JBJ

[SHOOTER12 8787]

36 minutes ago, Extra Anejo said:

I thought the call was correct. I can guarantee if the Maryland QB had been a UT QB then nobody, including Herman, would be objecting to the call. Yes the Maryland QB slid late but GJ had time to roll off. If there's going to be "targeting" as a violation then this has to be included. The ejection part is debatable, as a rule.

 

 

Thinking back to my ahem, glory days, I wonder how many players, both offensive and defensive, close their eyes milliseconds before a collision?  Not necessarily consciously, but rather an unconscious or reflexive action.  I remember as a wishbone QB back in '75 trying to run over and through defenders and one time I realized I had had been closing my eyes just prior to major collisions.   I realized this when I dropped my head and shoulders to blast a safety and flew through the air due to lack of impact.....our guard picked him off just prior to collision.