Targeting

[wood 11090]

3 minutes ago, staboner said:

there are a brazzilian bad targeting calls to get mad about

and yes, gray area here and in all them

however that play by johnson was not a good play. he had some chance to lessen his blow a bit and he didn't not. he seems to constantly be increasing his efforts to hit with his head and shoulder. 

to a point thought its nearly impossible to really stop this. its going to happen from time to time.

just wait till a QB fake slides and then runs around someone for a TD. its going to happen. 

Yep, been waiting for that one, too.

[wood 11090]

1 minute ago, SHOOTER12 said:

 

 

Thinking back to my ahem, glory days, I wonder how many players, both offensive and defensive, close their eyes milliseconds before a collision?  Not necessarily consciously, but rather an unconscious or reflexive action.  I remember as a wishbone QB back in '75 trying to run over and through defenders and one time I realized I had had been closing my eyes just prior to major collisions.   I realized this when I dropped my head and shoulders to blast a safety and flew through the air due to lack of impact.....our guard picked him off just prior to collision.

Dunno, but the Maryland QB closed his eyes as he started his slide.

[JBJ 3646]

You are down if you fake kneel or slide.  This happened in our 2009 game against Tech going into half.

[Sejjr 3246]

Once the helmet came off, it was going to be called targeting. I am more pissed off that we allowed that QB a free run at a first down. 

[SHOOTER12 8783]

2 minutes ago, wood said:

Dunno, but the Maryland QB closed his eyes as he started his slide.

He's damned lucky they didn't wind up closed permanently.

[ousux 5581]

Im ok with the penalty, not ok with ejection that can extend into the next game. If that same player gets flagged again for the same thing...then ejection is warranted.

[UncleBuck 6444]

5 minutes ago, wood said:

however that play by johnson was not a good play. he had some chance to lessen his blow a bit and he didn't not. he seems to constantly be increasing his efforts to hit with his head and shoulder. 

to a point thought its nearly impossible to really stop this. its going to happen from time to time.

I get what you're saying here, I just think it looks a lot worse than it really is, and that is the case most of the time. Like I said it my earlier post, he keeps tracking down with his shoulders (your head goes with your shoulders), and it's probably because A.) he's trying to stay below his helmet, and B.) he's trying to protect his legs. Just a subconscious thing.

 

You see his feet come off the ground at the end, which looks worse than it really is. That big ass QB isn't just gunna stop still when he slides, that boy's weight is coming, too. So you gotta come in there with some momentum yourself then brace for it. You can't just let the guy ram into you without any effort to stop it. You also cannot go full on and lay him out. Johnson could have gone a lot more full on IMO.

 

One thing we see a lot that is never ever called is when a RB or receiver is hit and goes down running forward, and a defender goes to the ground and kinda stops him. It looks like the defender is hitting/spearing him, and you think to yourself "why not just hurdle him?", but it's a natural reaction to protect your legs, so they go down and stop them instead of risking injury to themselves.

Edited September 6, 2018 by UncleBuck

[wood 11090]

1 minute ago, UncleBuck said:

I get what you're saying here, I just think it looks a lot worse than it really is, and that is the case most of the time. Like I said it my earlier post, he keeps tracking down with his shoulders (your head goes with your shoulders), and it's probably because A.) he's trying to stay below his helmet, and B.) he's trying to protect his legs. Just a subconscious thing.

 

You see his feet come off the ground at the end, which looks worse than it really is. That big ass QB isn't just gunna stop still when he slides, that boy's weight is coming, too. So you gotta come in there with some momentum yourself then brace for it.

 

One thing we see a lot that is never ever called is when a RB or receiver is hit and goes down running forward, and a defender goes to the ground and kinda stops him. It looks like the defender is hitting him, and you think to yourself "why not just hurdle him?", but it's a natural reaction to protect your feet, so they go down and stop them instead of risking injury to themselves.

That's weird. I got a notification that I was quoted, and it shows my name in the quote box, but that's not my quote.

[UncleBuck 6444]

Just now, wood said:

That's weird. I got a notification that I was quoted, and it shows my name in the quote box, but that's not my quote.

not sure what happened. Does shit like this from time to time.

[dcar00 14006]

1 hour ago, FloridaHorn said:

It was definitely a dirty play by today's definitions. The fact is, once the QB begins to slide, he is down. Hitting him after that is no different than hitting him if he was laying on the ground. The rule is to stop stupid plays exactly like this one.

they need to start marking the spot farther back to the point where he actually really starts to give himself up and where the ball actually is at that point. not where his feet are. 

[dcar00 14006]

11 minutes ago, ousux said:

Im ok with the penalty, not ok with ejection that can extend into the next game. If that same player gets flagged again for the same thing...then ejection is warranted.

I'm for intent being considered but for now my thought is that the "team" should get a free targeting with penalty but without ejection.  next targeting, that player gets ejected.

[Slacks 6788]

between horse-collars and targeting, i would have been kicked out of every game for over 10 years.

but i'd probably be able to remember simple words, too.

[Tex Pete 20124]

3 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

If that Texas player had been a split second earlier, and the QB's chin had been up a bit more, we may have seen a death on national TV.  He would have separated the kids head from his spine.  That was dirty as shit.  

Bullshit. You can't suspend the laws of physics just because the NCAA rules say you should. Johnson's body was in a position that he couldn't really change once the QB decided to slide. The implementation of the rule is fucking stupid.

[SHOOTER12 8783]

20 minutes ago, wood said:

That's weird. I got a notification that I was quoted, and it shows my name in the quote box, but that's not my quote.

That's happened to me a couple of times in the past few weeks....puter ayds.

[Tex Pete 20124]

1 hour ago, Spawn of Cthulhu said:

I'm pretty sure that any time the QB's helmet comes off in a hit like this that there's going to be a targeting call. Regardless of perceived intent, it happened and was a dangerous shot.

I agree, and I think that it the main reason the flag was thrown.

That said, why the fuck was Maryland not called for a facemask when the defender ripped Sam's helmet off along the sideline? Grabbing any part of the helmet is considered a facemask, and it was quite clear that is what the defender did.

It sucked that wasn't called, and that the pass interference rules were completely different for Maryland than they were for us.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

5 minutes ago, Tex Pete said:

Bullshit. You can't suspend the laws of physics just because the NCAA rules say you should. Johnson's body was in a position that he couldn't really change once the QB decided to slide. The implementation of the rule is fucking stupid.

Sorry, we're gonna have to disagree. It's all perception, but I was sitting in a room with more than a dozen mostly pretty big football fans and everyone agreed it was a good call. I think the perception of most people is it was avoidable. 

[Poolflood 845]

Looks like GJ had committed to destroy the guy with the ball as soon as he broke the LOS.  Probably try and break that fucker in half.  

Problem is with the rules he has to be more aware that the QB will probably slide and he's risking ejection.  He'll learn from it.  We're going to need him against USC.

[dcar00 14006]

15 minutes ago, Tex Pete said:

I agree, and I think that it the main reason the flag was thrown.

That said, why the fuck was Maryland not called for a facemask when the defender ripped Sam's helmet off along the sideline? Grabbing any part of the helmet is considered a facemask, and it was quite clear that is what the defender did.

It sucked that wasn't called, and that the pass interference rules were completely different for Maryland than they were for us.

this is the problem more than GJ's targeting and ejection. Big 12 refs suck shit and lately we've been on the very short end of it.  that said well coached teams blow out a maryland squad by the 3rd quarter whereit does not matter that we have crappy refs.

[Tex Pete 20124]

18 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Sorry, we're gonna have to disagree. It's all perception, but I was sitting in a room with more than a dozen mostly pretty big football fans and everyone agreed it was a good call. I think the perception of most people is it was avoidable. 

Most people are retards.

He certainly did not have to bring his shoulder the way he did, but the QB's late slide made the collision unavoidable. I believe he left his feet to lessen the impact.

[UncleBuck 6444]

17 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

but I was sitting in a room with more than a dozen mostly pretty big football fans and everyone agreed it was a good

I've seen a lot of big football fans disagree with the call. Some on this thread.

 

I'm not going to allow myself to be conditioned into thinking these are good calls. Football is football. The target (QB's head) dropped about four feet in a split second as a player was lowering for a tackle, which led to a helmet-to-helmet situation, which is what happens when you play tackle football with helmets on.

 

It's the same reason we see players get their "ankles broken" when a badass skill guy puts the juke on them: it happens in less than a second, and adjusting is difficult (even when you are able to get them down by a shoestring).

 

QBs shouldn't be allowed to slide at the last second. They need to slide way sooner. Can't be pulling the rug out from under defenders then suspending them a whole damn half for it.

Edited September 6, 2018 by UncleBuck

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

I was wondering when we were going to get to the Tex Pete Complaining About the Refs stage of grief after this loss...took longer than usual.

[Tex Long 4308]

XII refs seem to call against XII teams in OOC games regularly. Generally, the visitors bring their conference refs, but while most seem to benefit from that, I've seen XII teams getting that shitty end of the stick quite often. Awhile back, KSU played Stanford, there, with XII refs. Toward the end of a close game KSU got called for PI in the end zone on a very questionable call, setting up Stanford for a TD. KSU responded well, drove down and on consecutive plays had receivers absolutely mugged in the end zone (one I think was actually tackled before the ball arrived) with no call either time. 

Anent visitor refs, last year we let SC force Pac12 refs in our game there. Are we gonna insist on XII refs at home against SC? Hell, we might be better off if we don't...

[UncleBuck 6444]

3 minutes ago, UncleBuck said:

 

QBs shouldn't be allowed to slide at the last second. They need to slide way sooner.

Ran out of edits, but sure a QB can slide when they want, we just shouldn't go asking for a penalty willy-nilly every time a QB drops their ass out of thin air within three yards of a defender committing to pop them.

[Tex Long 4308]

Well, if QBs aren't going to be wearing skirts, then how about we subtract five yards from a slide? Oughta slow that shit down somewhat, no?

[FloridaHorn 4729]

18 minutes ago, Tex Long said:

Well, if QBs aren't going to be wearing skirts, then how about we subtract five yards from a slide? Oughta slow that shit down somewhat, no?

Should we subtract 5 yards when a WR or QB run out of bounds as well? I get it, it's a dangerous sport, but the hit by Johnson was uncalled for and the penalty was warranted. The end of that drive was not good for Gary. The play before, the TE had him beat by 2 yards for a TD, but he QB slightly overthrew him....Next play was his last play for the bonehead hit. Johnson has to be smarter, and play like the senior captain he is supposed to be.

[joeycovers 358]

I don't even understand the rules of the game anymore. It is so inconsistent that it makes no sense to me. 

 

Can a Defensive player "target" a RB or WR in the open field? Can they "target" a QB?   OR is it only targeting if they can not defend themselves? 

Ground cant cause a fumble yet Ground absolutely caused Watson to lose the ball.

Clock continues to run after the reset even when it's clear player ran out of bounds. 

I thought if you hit a punters kicking leg its automatic 15 because he is "defenseless"? Maybe i'm wrong on that one. 

 

 

[IDIOTsavant 8434]

7 minutes ago, joeycovers said:

I don't even understand the rules of the game anymore. It is so inconsistent that it makes no sense to me. 

 

Can a Defensive player "target" a RB or WR in the open field? Can they "target" a QB?   OR is it only targeting if they can not defend themselves? 

Ground cant cause a fumble yet Ground absolutely caused Watson to lose the ball.

Clock continues to run after the reset even when it's clear player ran out of bounds. 

I thought if you hit a punters kicking leg its automatic 15 because he is "defenseless"? Maybe i'm wrong on that one. 

 

 

It's the plant leg.

[Tex Pete 20124]

1 hour ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

I was wondering when we were going to get to the Tex Pete Complaining About the Refs stage of grief after this loss...took longer than usual.

At no point did I blame the loss on the refs. Not sure what your obsession is with following me around and calling me out fairly regularly.

You're an insignificant poster whose opinions don't interest me. Fuck yourself.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Tex Pete

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, UncleBuck said:

I've seen a lot of big football fans disagree with the call. Some on this thread.

 

 

I'd be surprised if you didn't find folks who don't think it was a good call.

[UncleBuck 6444]

6 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'd be surprised if you didn't find folks who don't think it was a good call.

I said I've seen a lot. I didn't say "everyone" I've seen. There are some on this thread who think it was a good call.

 

 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

7 minutes ago, Tex Pete said:

You're an insignificant poster whose opinions don't interest me. Fuck yourself.

you're doing that thing again where you spend time talking about things while professing you don't care about those things.

other things tex pete doesn't care about:

concussion protocols

bennie wylie

jp urquidez

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, UncleBuck said:

I said I've seen a lot. I didn't say "everyone" I've seen. There are some on this thread who think it was a good call.

 

 

I didn't say you did. I agree there are people on both sides of this one.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

 

other things tex pete doesn't care about:

concussion protocols

bennie wylie

jp urquidez

I'm thinking CTE as well

[hookem48 4630]

the fucking qb starts to juke when Johnson goes low then slides at the last possible second, you guys act like he waved his fucking hand up in the air 10 yards before he slid.  good call by the rules but waiting till the last possile second to slide is bullshit.  

[JBJ 3646]

52 minutes ago, joeycovers said:

Can a Defensive player "target" a RB or WR in the open field? Can they "target" a QB?   OR is it only targeting if they can not defend themselves? 

There are two targeting calls:

1) Forcefully hitting a defenseless player in the head or neck.

2) Tackling a ball carrier by forcefully striking with the crown of your helmet.  (The crown is the top, not the forehead.)

Then, there's all kinds of supporting criteria for what a forceful hit is: leaving the ground, launching, throwing your hips into the tackle, lowering your shoulder, etc...

If you have either 1 or 2 and there's evidence of any supporting criteria (which there always is in any collision), then it is targeting.

Edited September 6, 2018 by JBJ

[FondrenRoad 4378]

4 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

This is just wrong. Hill is already sliding and Johnson has dropped his hips but hasn't started lowering his shoulder. It was a bad play. The reason Johnson got this low was specifically to hit Hill on the slide:

 

 

That is not a form tackle, that is delivering a blow with a shoulder. There is no reason for Johnson to be that low with his head in that position unless he is aiming for a very low target like, say, a sliding quarterback.

This.  And also Johnson did not keep his head up.  Even if Hill had not made it that low in his slide by the time contact was made, its still a spear, and its dangerous for both players.  Dude is going to break his neck if he keeps trying to tackle like that.

[C-Man 26937]

I'm not a fan of ejection for plays that aren't what you'd call malicious, dirty hits. Being gone from the game -- and possibly the first half of the next game -- is pretty harsh for some plays that many teams aren't intentional at all. GJ could've let up pretty easy if you ask me but is that an ejectable offense? Flag it, mark it down on his permanent record. If he gets another one, boot him (like the yellow-red card system in soccer).

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

34 minutes ago, C-Man said:

I'm not a fan of ejection for plays that aren't what you'd call malicious, dirty hits. Being gone from the game -- and possibly the first half of the next game -- is pretty harsh for some plays that many teams aren't intentional at all. GJ could've let up pretty easy if you ask me but is that an ejectable offense? Flag it, mark it down on his permanent record. If he gets another one, boot him (like the yellow-red card system in soccer).

Yeah, I agree, but the refs on the field make that call, and go to the booth for back up right ?  It shouldn't be a black and white call. There are many times it's really incidental and they've still thrown the player out. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

3 hours ago, UncleBuck said:

I've seen a lot of big football fans disagree with the call. Some on this thread.

 

I'm not going to allow myself to be conditioned into thinking these are good calls. Football is football. The target (QB's head) dropped about four feet in a split second as a player was lowering for a tackle, which led to a helmet-to-helmet situation, which is what happens when you play tackle football with helmets on.

 

It's the same reason we see players get their "ankles broken" when a badass skill guy puts the juke on them: it happens in less than a second, and adjusting is difficult (even when you are able to get them down by a shoestring).

 

QBs shouldn't be allowed to slide at the last second. They need to slide way sooner. Can't be pulling the rug out from under defenders then suspending them a whole damn half for it.

That I agree with.  The slide should have to occur in the open field before a tackle is imminent.  Hill was trying to slide right as he crossed the 1st down marker rather than at a place where he could slide safely.  Johnson was trying to collide right before the marker to drive him backward and prevent the first down.  Hill waited too long to slide because he wanted the first down.  Johnson should have let up and kept his head up, but he was still going to land right on top of Hill no matter what. 

Hill wasn't worried about his own safety. He was worried about the first down.  He knew a player was going to meet him right at the marker.  It was a good call only because Johnson didn't keep his head up and speared him.  Contact was definitely going to happen there, however.

[dcar00 14006]

17 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

That I agree with.  The slide should have to occur in the open field before a tackle is imminent.  Hill was trying to slide right as he crossed the 1st down marker rather than at a place where he could slide safely.  Johnson was trying to collide right before the marker to drive him backward and prevent the first down.  Hill waited too long to slide because he wanted the first down.  Johnson should have let up and kept his head up, but he was still going to land right on top of Hill no matter what. 

Hill wasn't worried about his own safety. He was worried about the first down.  He knew a player was going to meet him right at the marker.  It was a good call only because Johnson didn't keep his head up and speared him.  Contact was definitely going to happen there, however.

exactly and the first time a QB fakes like he is letting up they should review and mark it where he started the fake.  If as the referee you see the QB change his posture to slide then they should blow the whistle.

Id have to review the play but I'm pretty sure Hill would have been short of the marker based on where he started to slide.

[Coelenterate Fuccboi 13000]

I forcefully struck the heads of all Surly moms with the crown of my helmet.

[JBJ 3646]

10 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

Id have to review the play but I'm pretty sure Hill would have been short of the marker based on where he started to slide.

It was close, but I think so too.  There was a holding call anyway.

34 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Johnson should have let up and kept his head up, but he was still going to land right on top of Hill no matter what. 

And it probably wouldn't be called if he did.  The biggest complaint seems to be that contact was inevitable, which I agree with. 

However, letting up and ackwardly falling onto the guy hardly ever gets called.  Driving though the contact gets called every time.   Johnson clearly did the latter.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

5 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

exactly and the first time a QB fakes like he is letting up they should review and mark it where he started the fake.  If as the referee you see the QB change his posture to slide then they should blow the whistle.

Id have to review the play but I'm pretty sure Hill would have been short of the marker based on where he started to slide.

He started it less than a foot from the 1st down line.  Clearly he was going for the line.  He was nearly completely upright at the line.  A safe slide would have started a full 2 yards sooner since a Texas player, GJ was equidistant to the line and was converging on him.  Another Texas player was only slightly behind.  The helmet to helmet hit happens almost 2 yards past the 1st down line.  His slide momentum carried him fully into the point where GJ started his tackle.  While GJ could have avoided the helmet to helmet hit, he would have had to actually reverse momentum and step backwards or to the side to avoid contact.

A safe slide should not be permitted when a QB intentionally enters a danger zone with 4 quickly converging players in order to squeeze out an extra yard and a 1st down.  It interferes with the defense's ability to play the game and it actually puts himself in danger as we see with this play.  Do it in the open field or not at all.

[Oakbrook 67]

I’m opposed to any rule that relies completely on the discretion of an official, and then is confirmed by an official judging intent of split second reaction on slow-mo replay.

Complete organic fertilizer.

What do I know?  i’m from the age of salt pills, no water breaks, and “lead with the crown of your helmet.”  We did everything wrong, and liked it.

 Plllllllllll . . .

[Coelenterate Fuccboi 13000]

4 minutes ago, Oakbrook said:

I’m opposed to any rule that relies completely on the discretion of an official, and then is confirmed by an official judging intent of split second reaction on slow-mo replay.

Complete organic fertilizer.

What do I know?  i’m from the age of salt pills, no water breaks, and “lead with the crown of your helmet.”  We did everything wrong, and liked it.

 Plllllllllll . . .

I don’t remember if I liked it or not.

[CurlyDumps 4430]

 

6 hours ago, C-Man said:

I'm not a fan of ejection for plays that aren't what you'd call malicious, dirty hits. Being gone from the game -- and possibly the first half of the next game -- is pretty harsh for some plays that many teams aren't intentional at all. GJ could've let up pretty easy if you ask me but is that an ejectable offense? Flag it, mark it down on his permanent record. If he gets another one, boot him (like the yellow-red card system in soccer).

I was thinking something similar. Maybe a cumulative system, like the NBA tech rules - get 2 or 3 targeting calls over the course of a season and you miss the next game.  Straight ejection is just harsh.  Especially since some targeting incidents are more bang-bang and less malicious than other PF’s.

while we’re at it, you know what else grinds my gears?  PI calls on underthrown passes.  Those two PI calls on us were  trash.

[Fondren & Main 6626]

Are y’all motherfuckers surprised!?  He told you he fucking hates quarterbacks.

[kopp0e 1135]

13 hours ago, Tex Pete said:

Bullshit. You can't suspend the laws of physics just because the NCAA rules say you should. Johnson's body was in a position that he couldn't really change once the QB decided to slide. The implementation of the rule is fucking stupid.

The problem for the NCAA is most rulemakers likely haven't played football in over 25+ years, if ever, and have no idea how the physicality of the game has changed...

[utee94 15733]

10 hours ago, CurlyDumps said:

 

I was thinking something similar. Maybe a cumulative system, like the NBA tech rules - get 2 or 3 targeting calls over the course of a season and you miss the next game.  Straight ejection is just harsh.  Especially since some targeting incidents are more bang-bang and less malicious than other PF’s.

while we’re at it, you know what else grinds my gears?  PI calls on underthrown passes.  Those two PI calls on us were  trash.

Yeah, I have no idea what a DB is supposed to do when a receiver quits on his route for an underthrown ball.  Is he supposed to hurl himself out of the way of the receiver to ensure the guy can make a catch?  This is a terrible implementation of the rules and needs to be reassessed.  

[Zavala 1384]

4 minutes ago, utee94 said:

Yeah, I have no idea what a DB is supposed to do when a receiver quits on his route for an underthrown ball.  Is he supposed to hurl himself out of the way of the receiver to ensure the guy can make a catch?  This is a terrible implementation of the rules and needs to be reassessed.  

They always say he has to "get his head around". So he can interfere as long as he's looking back for/at the ball.

 

Hey did any of those retarded off-ball targeting penalties get called in the No Fun League game last night? When they call one on an offensive line or running back I'll have a good chuckle, but they will continue to only call this penalty on defensive guys.