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Min Wage Increase Doesn't Impact Employement


Washpark

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20 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I would bet folding money that nobody on this board has spent more time eating restaurant food in more 3rd and 4th tier towns in the lower 48 than I have (including Weatherford, Granbury, Mineral Wells, Cleburne, etc), but I’m also capable of understanding that struggling local economies aren’t representative of growing ones. There is no such thing as the “$2.31/hr + tip model.” There are a few places with very few opportunities where an employer can get away with paying the minimum wage. In most places that are hiring, they can’t. 

I can guarantee you that the restaurants don't more than the $2.31 in most places I've lived.  But, then, the tipping has always been good enough that they didn't have to...

When you ate in Weatherford and Granbury or Cleburne, those folks were making the $2.31/hr.  But, everyone tips and they all go home with much more than $7.25/hr.

The restaurants aren't making it up the difference between $2.13 (just got corrected that it's not $2.31 by my son's GF) and $7.25 IN ADDITION, though...

Quote

I’m a big fan of that model- also makes it easier to hold onto line cooks. Tipping is bad for business. 

I agree.  Just tell me my price. 

If the server did something special, I'll reward them.

Hence, my view on this subject.  If you're getting paid $15/hr, you're off the tipping model in my opinion.

Edited by Ag with kids
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26 minutes ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

Who amongst us don't don't more, throw the first stone.

Who doesn't want more?

Doesn't mean the government should mandate that you get more.

And if they do, don't bitch when prices go up as the businesses change their prices and potentially business models...

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27 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Doesn't mean the government should mandate that you get more.

In our democracy, the people that you and me hire are hired with the explicit task of promoting the general welfare. The United States of America is rich as fuck and the general welfare is a downward trajectory. Stop making excuses.

 

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11 minutes ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

In our democracy, the people that you and me hire are hired with the explicit task of promoting the general welfare. The United States of America is rich as fuck and the general welfare is a downward trajectory. Stop making excuses.

 

Promote != Provide

 

hth

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13 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Promote != Provide

 

hth

...and if four decades plus post-Sea Change of an empty Rising Tide lifting all boats promise results in exactly what its critics said it would do, what do you think is government's constitutional obligation? 

Edited by Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand
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14 hours ago, Ag with kids said:

I have no disdain for the MW worker.

That is separate from my position on this issue.

If I go to a fast food restaurant or a 7/11, I'm not tipping.  Because their pay model is based on the establishment paying them and incorporating that cost into the price of whatever product I'm purchasing.

Do you tip at Walmart...oh sorry, that's too plebeian for you...Do you tip at Whole Foods?  If not, why not?  They're working just the same as servers.  But, then, their pay model isn't built on the tipping model.  Even though they probably make less than your barista or the server at Applebees.

BTW, if the MW goes up to $15/hr, I know that cost will be baked into the groceries I buy at HEB.  But, then it will ALSO be baked into the Applebees.  So, now their model isn't the $2.31/hr tipping model.  It's being paid by the restaurant.  No need to for the customer to pay it now.

BTW, Applebees was only good for one thing, drinking beer late when I lived in Weatherford.  Don't even know if we have one here and not anxious to find out.

Not trying to make a statement, just explaining my position on tipping.

Before I was well off I had a well off friend tell me, when I pressed him about overtipping, about the marginal value of that extra $5 and how it means more to them than it could ever mean to him. That unlocked something in my brain.

Now that I have a lot of means, I love to tip. It’s an easy and near effortless way to spread some kindness and love and be of service to people. I love to overtip and make a downtrodden persons day. I love tipping the Costco and Target guy/gal loading my trunk because their surprise and joy is awesome. I love tipping $50 on a $20 diner ticket because you just know that is a material and meaningful impact on their day to day life.

if people could do better and earn more, more than likely they would. I’m not talking about the steakhouse server making $100k/yr at Nick & Sam’s or the bar tender at a popular spot taking in the money. You know the people I’m talking about and the fact these people have to work for min. wage means they are worthy of what little noblesse oblige I have.

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1 hour ago, Vegas64 said:

Before I was well off I had a well off friend tell me, when I pressed him about overtipping, about the marginal value of that extra $5 and how it means more to them than it could ever mean to him. That unlocked something in my brain.

Now that I have a lot of means, I love to tip. It’s an easy and near effortless way to spread some kindness and love and be of service to people. I love to overtip and make a downtrodden persons day. I love tipping the Costco and Target guy/gal loading my trunk because their surprise and joy is awesome. I love tipping $50 on a $20 diner ticket because you just know that is a material and meaningful impact on their day to day life.

if people could do better and earn more, more than likely they would. I’m not talking about the steakhouse server making $100k/yr at Nick & Sam’s or the bar tender at a popular spot taking in the money. You know the people I’m talking about and the fact these people have to work for min. wage means they are worthy of what little noblesse oblige I have.

I'm not morally opposed to tipping.  In fact, as I posted earlier, I tend to tip at least 25% (unless service was really bad).

But, that's because the server's pay model is BASED on me tipping them.  I don't tip the counter person at Stripes when I grab my Laredo tacos...It's not their pay model.

If someone goes above and beyond, then sure, I toss them a few bucks.  I make sure I have a few bucks for the shuttle guy at the Hilton when he takes us to MDA even though it's just a few min and it's his job...but, I really appreciate that he's helping the GF get better.

But, if everyone was really concerned about pay, then why tip the server at a restaurant and not the guy at Subway that takes your order AND makes your meal?  It's about money in their pocket, right?  Or the guy that checked you out at 7-11?  He probably could REALLY use the few extra bucks (sure, it's for meth, but whatever).

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5 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

The same businesses that used inflation as cover to increase margins?

So you can better understand how companies have to operate in high inflation times...

 

Quote

Consider a manufacturer of copper cookware that generates all its revenue from the sales of ten thousand copper pans every year. Each year the manufacturer pays $1 million to buy the raw material and pay the labor required for manufacturing those ten thousand units, then sells each unit at $120, which adds up to total sales of $1.2 million. If there is no inflation, the manufacturer can pocket $200,000 from the sales proceeds and use the remaining $1 million to buy the raw material and pay the labor needed to manufacture ten thousand pans next year. This amounts to a 20 percent pretax profit margin.

As long as the input costs do not rise, the manufacturer can do that year after year and keep its profit margin at 20 percent. However, if some input costs, such as copper prices, go up, this changes the whole equation. Imagine an inflationary environment where the manufacturer expects the cost of raw materials and the cost of labor for next year to go up on average 10 percent to $1.1 million for producing ten thousand units. The manufacturer has to increase the price of copper pans to be able to collect at least $1.3 million in sales.

After pocketing $200,000, they end up with $1.1 million which is just enough to pay the higher cost of raw material and labor for the next year’s production of ten thousand pans. However, for the purposes of profit margin calculation, the manufacturer has to report this year’s cost, which was $1 million amounting to a 30 percent profit margin. The reality is that the manufacturer is not getting wealthier. They are still only pocketing $200,000, yet the profit margins are inflated.

 

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14 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

I get the general point, but just wanna point out that sinking a million into something that might make a big 200 thousand, when the price goes up and down, means that company will always be a couple of years from its next crisis.

My goblin overlords insist that I go for things that make at least 200% profit over costs, not 20%.

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Is Houston a competitive market for waiters and servers?   Becuase one of the Macanudo-ettes waits tables in Spring and makes $2.13 an hour + tips.   

She should find a new job and we're working on that but it's the 2nd restaurant she's worked at that paying that rate.  It's not unusual in Texas, boom market or bust.

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1 hour ago, RDCanecutter said:

I get the general point, but just wanna point out that sinking a million into something that might make a big 200 thousand, when the price goes up and down, means that company will always be a couple of years from its next crisis.

My goblin overlords insist that I go for things that make at least 200% profit over costs, not 20%.

Congrats on working for Apple???? ;)

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14 hours ago, Ag with kids said:

I'm not morally opposed to tipping.  In fact, as I posted earlier, I tend to tip at least 25% (unless service was really bad).

But, that's because the server's pay model is BASED on me tipping them.  I don't tip the counter person at Stripes when I grab my Laredo tacos...It's not their pay model.

If someone goes above and beyond, then sure, I toss them a few bucks.  I make sure I have a few bucks for the shuttle guy at the Hilton when he takes us to MDA even though it's just a few min and it's his job...but, I really appreciate that he's helping the GF get better.

But, if everyone was really concerned about pay, then why tip the server at a restaurant and not the guy at Subway that takes your order AND makes your meal?  It's about money in their pocket, right?  Or the guy that checked you out at 7-11?  He probably could REALLY use the few extra bucks (sure, it's for meth, but whatever).

You don’t tip Subway folks? Damn.

Piker.

 

 

Edited by Willfully Horn
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15 hours ago, Vegas64 said:

Before I was well off I had a well off friend tell me, when I pressed him about overtipping, about the marginal value of that extra $5 and how it means more to them than it could ever mean to him. That unlocked something in my brain.

Now that I have a lot of means, I love to tip. It’s an easy and near effortless way to spread some kindness and love and be of service to people. I love to overtip and make a downtrodden persons day. I love tipping the Costco and Target guy/gal loading my trunk because their surprise and joy is awesome. I love tipping $50 on a $20 diner ticket because you just know that is a material and meaningful impact on their day to day life.

if people could do better and earn more, more than likely they would. I’m not talking about the steakhouse server making $100k/yr at Nick & Sam’s or the bar tender at a popular spot taking in the money. You know the people I’m talking about and the fact these people have to work for min. wage means they are worthy of what little noblesse oblige I have.

image.jpeg.012a9d0c8e418738a8e9c5310418b8c8.jpeg

 

🤘

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8 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

You don’t tip Subway folks? Damn.

Piker.

 

 

I didn't say that.  I was asking a rhetorical question.

I actually DO tip them, but not the auto 20% they want.  I generally add $1 and then round up.  FWIW, I tip them because they are actually making it to my specs.  And they have to put up with me while they're doing it.

 

Edited by Ag with kids
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2 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Subway is on par with a hot dog buffet. 

I am glad you added that last word. My health-inspector bro-in-law tells me that dedicated hot dog joints are actually the cleanest places he sees. When I visit Mexico and eat street dogs, I am the picture of health. Eat at the "nice" places down there? Shitting out earwax and toenails.

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On 12/27/2024 at 11:54 PM, Ag with kids said:

Who doesn't want more?

Doesn't mean the government should mandate that you get more.

And if they do, don't bitch when prices go up as the businesses change their prices and potentially business models...

So you’re against all ag subsidies and tax exemptions for businesses I take it

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5 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

So you’re against all ag subsidies and tax exemptions for businesses I take it

I'm against all subsidies.

As for tax exemptions for businesses, I think corporate/business taxes are just a nice way for the government to hide that they're actually taxing their citizens...since corporate/business taxes are just passed through to their customers.  (which you acknowledge with your gotcha comment).  So, they should just do away with them entirely (politicians won't do that though because that means they couldn't distract to the the evil boogeyman who DESERVES to be taxed).  But, taxes are a totally different thread for discussion, so I'm done discussing them on this thread.

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37 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

I'm against all subsidies.

As for tax exemptions for businesses, I think corporate/business taxes are just a nice way for the government to hide that they're actually taxing their citizens...since corporate/business taxes are just passed through to their customers.  (which you acknowledge with your gotcha comment).  So, they should just do away with them entirely (politicians won't do that though because that means they couldn't distract to the the evil boogeyman who DESERVES to be taxed).  But, taxes are a totally different thread for discussion, so I'm done discussing them on this thread.

Uh Huh Yes GIF

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The hard part for a restaurant is the schedule. You make all of your money in three hour blocks with another 3-4 hrs separating those blocks. 
 
Overstaffed vs understaffed is always a struggle. 
 
In an ideal world you would have staff do a four hour shift, go home and come back for another 4 hour shift. But that shit doesn’t work in the real world. 

Scheduling was the reasoning Taco Deli closed at 2. Most staff worked a 6-8 hour shift so it made scheduling easy. At the time they said it was that dead time between lunch and dinner which made adding a second shift unprofitable but during COVID they started dinner service and have kept it.
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12 hours ago, Ag with kids said:

But, taxes are a totally different thread for discussion, so I'm done discussing them on this thread.

Not really, because wages are so low these businesses use the federal government to subsidize their wage slaves. Fuck yeah we should be taxing those entities more - they're drawing on more subsidy and pork for their otherwise failing business 

 

Lol you aggys have a very narrow capacity to see complex systems 

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2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Oh cool, AWK is citing the mises institute now. 

I'll never forgive them for dropping the "von."

I do like their schtick, lots of hunting paintings for people who don't hunt, and always a piano lurking for people who don't play piano. The main dudes probably own 50 bucks' worth of physical gold between them.

Aw hell they're right down the road in Auburn. Maybe I could get a job as their dueling master.

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2 hours ago, Captainant said:

Not really, because wages are so low these businesses use the federal government to subsidize their wage slaves. Fuck yeah we should be taxing those entities more - they're drawing on more subsidy and pork for their otherwise failing business 

 

Lol you aggys have a very narrow capacity to see complex systems 

Yes, really.

Taxes and wages are different things.  HTH

I'm talking about the minimum wage and tipping on here.

Start a tax thread if it's important to you.:|

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On 12/28/2024 at 5:53 PM, Ag with kids said:

I find it fascinating that it seems to be perfectly acceptable that consumers bite the pillow during inflationary periods, but it is also perfectly acceptable that businesses raise prices so they don't have to bite the pillow.

Not to mention that the prices rarely, if ever, go down once the supply-chain normalizes and inflationary COGS goes down.

It's like maybe we're not all in this together.

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https://www.axios.com/2024/12/30/minimum-wage-raise-2025

 

Millions of workers are getting a raise on Jan. 1, when the minimum wage is set to rise across 21 states, and 48 cities and counties. 

Why it matters: The increases lift the pay of more than 9.2 million people, per the Economic Policy Institute's tally.

  • Millions more will benefit. When the wage floor rises, that means pay goes up for other workers at the bottom of the income ladder, too.

The big picture: Congress last raised the federal minimum wage in 2009 to its current $7.25 an hour.

  • Since then, many states and localities took matters into their own hands. Now only 20 states adhere to the federal minimum wage. 

Between the lines: 19 of those states voted for President-elect Trump, as NBC's Kristen Welker recently pointed out. 

  • Trump said that although $7.25 an hour was "a very low number," he didn't know what the appropriate minimum wage would be because the cost of living varies so much by region. 
  • That's how the issue has effectively sorted itself out in the U.S. The areas with a higher cost of living now do have higher minimum wages.

Where it stands: California's minimum wage is rising to $16.50, with several cities going higher, including in pricey Silicon Valley spots like Mountain View ($19.20) and Cupertino ($18.20). 

  • In New York, the wage floor is rising to $16.50 in NYC and Long Island, and $15.50 upstate.
  • Washington State rises to $16.66, but large employers in Seattle's King County pay at least $20.29.
  • In some places, the minimum wage is linked to inflation, which is why the wage isn't a nice round number. 
  • Higher wages aren't just a blue state phenomenon. Pay is rising to $14.70 in Arizona, $10.55 in Montana, $13.50 in Nebraska and $10.70 in Ohio.

  • A few states are raising pay later in the year. Florida's minimum wage will go up to $14 an hour on September 30. 
  • What to watch: By 2027, nearly half of U.S. workers will live in states with at least a $15 minimum wage, left-leaning EPI recently reported.

  • That number was once considered impossibly high, but now thanks to a mix of intense worker activism (remember Fight for $15?) and sky high inflation it doesn't seem so wild.
  • Go deeper: The National Employment Law Project has a list of all the changes.

 


 

 

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9 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I find it fascinating that it seems to be perfectly acceptable that consumers bite the pillow during inflationary periods, but it is also perfectly acceptable that businesses raise prices so they don't have to bite the pillow.

Not to mention that the prices rarely, if ever, go down once the supply-chain normalizes and inflationary COGS goes down.

It's like maybe we're not all in this together.

So if costs go up for a company, they should just accept it and not pass it through?

Should just take no profits during the period or possibly lose money so that the customers don't bite the pillow?

BTW, I'd bet that most companies deal with inflation the same way they do any other increased costs.

They pass it to the the employees in lower hours, fewer benefits (like free food at restaurants), cutting employees or cutting back on hiring.  They also pass it to the shareholders in lower earnings and dividends (this comes with less capital for future use though).  Then, they pass it to the customer in higher prices.  And finally, many companies DO take lower profits as part of it.

Now, as my link pointed out though, increases in price will generally cause higher profit margins on paper, but not necessarily in reality...

 

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