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Min Wage Increase Doesn't Impact Employement

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Incredulity

Incredulity 11558

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11 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Whether it's $7 an hour or $15 an hour, you nor I know the true costs to start, regulate, own and operate a burger joint and what price points are needed to maintain an acceptable margin and profits.

Sure we do.  Fast food businesses are one of the most studied and known business models in the US.  Plus there are dozens of franchisors trying to find business operators to run their fast food "better mouse trap".  Its pretty much all quantified and known.

Nothing stopping an entrepreneurial person from raising capital and competing very successfully with the mega-chains or regionals.  Nothing except money, time, guts, vision, execution, luck.....

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bernorange

bernorange 8348

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When Gov. Gavin Newsom signed a law that set a first-in-the-nation minimum wage for healthcare workers, three words in a bill analysis foretold potential concerns about its cost: “Fiscal impact unknown.”

Now, three weeks after Newsom signed SB 525 into law — giving medical employees at least $25 an hour, including support staff such as cleaners and security guards — his administration has an estimated price tag: $4 billion in the 2024-25 fiscal year alone.

Half of that will come directly from the state’s general fund, while the other half will be paid for by federal funds designated for providers of Medi-Cal, California’s Medicaid program, according to Newsom’s Department of Finance.

SB 525 is one of the most expensive laws California has seen in years and comes as the state faces a $14-billion budget deficit that could grow larger if revenue projections continue to fall short. ...

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-11-04/healthcare-minimum-wage-expected-to-cost-4-billion-in-first-year-as-california-budget-deficit-looms#_=_

California is going all in on the river.  Time will tell what they have in the hole.

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26296

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, bernorange said:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2023/11/01/chipotle-mcdonalds-raising-prices-california/71408254007/

Good. Let their customers pay for their labor force rather than socialize it with public welfare services. 

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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Captainant

Captainant 27471

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6 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Not remotely related to what I said.

"Unringing that bell" means no longer subsidizing their underpayment of workers, which was artificially propping up many firms business model and ability to price out competitors to set up a profit taking maneuver. Which would ultimately mean slimmer profit margins and losing the guaranteed "line go up"

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Incredulity

Incredulity 11558

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10 minutes ago, Captainant said:

 losing the guaranteed "line go up"

Business is dynamic.  The line doesn’t always go up.  Businesses, even the large corporations, fail all the time.  
 

The policy of the Federal Government is a market condition all companies have to react to.  Sam Walton didn’t bribe LBJ to implement Great Society social programs.  

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Captainant

Captainant 27471

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29 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

No employee should earn more than X times the lowest paid FTE.

Smash cut to the rise of contractors as the primary workforce. Amazon's entire delivery system is all 3rd party providers. That work exclusively for them and use their equipment and follow their marching orders.

Totally not FTEs though 

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CooterBrown

CooterBrown 17916

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On 11/26/2023 at 7:00 PM, Captainant said:

Smash cut to the rise of contractors as the primary workforce. Amazon's entire delivery system is all 3rd party providers. That work exclusively for them and use their equipment and follow their marching orders.

Totally not FTEs though 

There should be tax disadvantages to having contractors vs FTEs with benefits.  Maybe something like if more than X% of your workforce is contractors, you can't write off those costs as business expenses.

 

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StassneyHorn

StassneyHorn 6540

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Crossposting from the daily Biden thread as there may be more focused conversation.

Almost 10 million workers in 22 states will get raises on January 1. See where wages are rising.

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/minimum-wage-increase-january-1-2024-see-the-states/

  • Alaska: $11.73
  • Arizona: $14.35
  • California: $16
  • Colorado: $14.42
  • Connecticut: $15.69
  • Delaware: $13.25
  • Hawaii: $14
  • Illinois: $14
  • Maine: $14.15
  • Maryland: $15
  • Michigan: $10.33
  • Minnesota: $10.85
  • Missouri: $12.30
  • Montana: $10.30
  • Nebraska: $12
  • New Jersey: $15.13
  • New York: $16
  • Ohio: $10.45
  • Rhode Island: $14
  • South Dakota: $11.20
  • Vermont: $13.67
  • Washington: $16.28 

Denver will have a minimum wage in the $18 range and lots of California cities will be above $16

 

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bernorange

bernorange 8348

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Pizza Hut is laying off more than 1,200 delivery drivers in California.

The layoffs, which will take place through the end of February, come as California's minimum wage is about to go up by $4. Fast-food workers in the state are set to get a pay bump of close to 30% in April as the minimum wages rises from $16 to $20 an hour.
...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/california-pizza-huts-lay-off-234021911.html

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13414

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10 hours ago, StassneyHorn said:

Crossposting from the daily Biden thread as there may be more focused conversation.

Almost 10 million workers in 22 states will get raises on January 1. See where wages are rising.

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/minimum-wage-increase-january-1-2024-see-the-states/

  • Alaska: $11.73
  • Arizona: $14.35
  • California: $16
  • Colorado: $14.42
  • Connecticut: $15.69
  • Delaware: $13.25
  • Hawaii: $14
  • Illinois: $14
  • Maine: $14.15
  • Maryland: $15
  • Michigan: $10.33
  • Minnesota: $10.85
  • Missouri: $12.30
  • Montana: $10.30
  • Nebraska: $12
  • New Jersey: $15.13
  • New York: $16
  • Ohio: $10.45
  • Rhode Island: $14
  • South Dakota: $11.20
  • Vermont: $13.67
  • Washington: $16.28 

Denver will have a minimum wage in the $18 range and lots of California cities will be above $16

 

Who was the idiot (Sack?) who argued how capitalism worked best without minimum wages. Something about that if you can find a moron who will work for $2/hr, then you're doing your fiduciary best for the owners/shareholders. Doesn't he run a church now?

Also, isn't Texas still at $7.25? I assume that we're on a list somewhere with MS and AL.

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Biff Tannen

Biff Tannen 45500

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51 minutes ago, StassneyHorn said:

Shifting delivery responsibilities to Door Dash, Grubhub, and Uber Eats. I think with Prop 22, the drivers would end up making more money due to the gig worker laws. 

Yep.  And then YUM brands can continue their record profits.  Cut "costs" to improve performance.

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bolverk

bolverk 29413

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1 hour ago, StassneyHorn said:

Shifting delivery responsibilities to Door Dash, Grubhub, and Uber Eats. I think with Prop 22, the drivers would end up making more money due to the gig worker laws. 

Not only that, but their newest brick & mortar outlets have drive-thrus. Just order ahead from the app and drive up to the window. I guess they found customers' willingness to pick up from curbside was successful but too labor intensive during the pandemic.

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NWBuck

NWBuck 8548

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Posted

Since the FLSA figures use minimum wage rates to determine the threshold for exempt jobs, the bump in minimum wage in Washington is having an unexpected impact in higher education. 

Now coaches and a lot of student development staff who (by nature) work long or irregular hours are being pushed to hourly status (particularly at smaller institutions where 'just raising their salary' isn't an option). 

Coupled with a number of state laws and DoE requirements, it's also turning a lot of these positions into ones that are primarily administrative (since there are other penalties if you don't follow the regulations) rather than the educational/developmental/mentoring/counseling work that's been their focus. This is unfortunately coinciding with the rise in student emotional health issues and interpersonal immaturity that we're seeing post pandemic.

Good times. 

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bernorange

bernorange 8348

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Today, the California Business and Industrial Alliance (CABIA) will run a full-page ad in the statewide edition of USA Today showcasing the detrimental impact of California’s recent minimum wage hikes for fast-food restaurants. The ad lists out the mock “obituaries” of restaurants that have been harmed. It also calls out Governor Newsom for signing California Assembly Bill 1228 into law, which includes a $20 per hour minimum wage for fast-food workers, and establishes a fast-food regulatory council with the authority to raise the industry’s minimum wage annually.

Since AB 1228 was signed into law last September, California fast-food restaurants have cut nearly 10,000 jobs, representing a 1.3 percent change from September 2023. The ad highlights numerous fast-food chains across California that have been forced to raise prices, lay off workers, and shut down stores, creating a wave of concern throughout the Golden State’s business landscape. ...

https://cabia.org/full-page-ad-calls-out-governor-newsom-highlights-victims-of-recent-minimum-wage-hike/

 

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Willfully Horn

Willfully Horn 7920

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3 hours ago, bernorange said:

https://cabia.org/full-page-ad-calls-out-governor-newsom-highlights-victims-of-recent-minimum-wage-hike/

 

Cabia.org has no reputation, either in support of its credibility or against. Why not find a reputable organization that makes the same claim? Do you think, if the claim you have posted is true, that the free press is actively suppressing the facts?

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safe sex

safe sex 11686

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From the "About" section on their site:

Quote

The California Business and Industrial Alliance (CABIA) is a trade organization founded in 2017 by business executives and entrepreneurs to fix California’s worst law: the Private Attorneys General Act (PAGA).

More than 35,000 PAGA complaints have been filed against employers since 2004. The problem has grown worse in recent years: In 2016, more than 5,000 PAGA complaints were filed – an astonishing 1,440 percent increase from the law’s first year in effect.

The Alliance is led by a team of experienced California business owners and communicators committed to creating a regulatory climate that fosters the creation of new businesses and helps existing ones prosper.

Wanting it to be harder for employees to sue their employers to enforce Labor Code violations? Yeah, I'm sure they're real above board.

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StassneyHorn

StassneyHorn 6540

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Anybody asking bernorange for a link from somewhere that isn’t a link dump website or straight TRASH doesn’t know bernorange

…Canfit Dicknmuhass from FME advisors is predicting a crash and we give it a 69% chance of never updating this story if it happens…

www. Joebidenhasamilfwifethatidonttrust.com

 

Edited by StassneyHorn
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Biff Tannen

Biff Tannen 45500

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8 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

Cabia.org has no reputation, either in support of its credibility or against. Why not find a reputable organization that makes the same claim? Do you think, if the claim you have posted is true, that the free press is actively suppressing the facts?

 

3 hours ago, safe sex said:

From the "About" section on their site:

Wanting it to be harder for employees to sue their employers to enforce Labor Code violations? Yeah, I'm sure they're real above board.

I'm so god damn tired of people whining that it's too hard to know what's real or not anymore.  It's a 10 second google search to find out sources.  That's it.  Fucking lazy citizens.

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bernorange

bernorange 8348

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FWIW, the CABIA ad:

https://cabia.org/app/uploads/240604_CABIA_USATodayAd_InMemoriam-1.pdf

clearly cites the Hoover Institution (from Stanford U) as the source for their claims/quote.  Here's the Hoover Institute's page in the issue:

https://www.hoover.org/research/california-loses-nearly-10000-fast-food-jobs-after-20-minimum-wage-signed-last-fall

You likely need to contact them directly if you want more details on how they tabulated their numbers.  Surly sure does love ad hominems these days.

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13414

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I struggle on minimum wage levels. I'm not like Johnny Sack, or whatever he changed his name to when he wanted to hide his past replies, where he argued that the minimum wage should be abolished and if someone was willing to work for $1/hr, then so be it.

Minimum wage should absolutely exist to prevent an employer from abusing a worker due to lack of choices or ability to understand the worth of their labor. However I'm uncertain that minimum wage should be drastically raised at once to fix previous wrongs like going 10 years without an adjustment.

It's 100% criminal that the federal and therefore Texas min wage has been at $7.25 since 2009. WTF. But online inflation calculators tells me that a corresponding hourly wage in 2024 should be $10.60.

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Evil Bill Obrien

Evil Bill Obrien 3195

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I made roughly minimum wage in the early-mid 2000’s as a bored teenager in high school and then as a college student part time just looking for some beer money. Absolutely think minimum wage should exist to protect against the race to the bottom of capitalism that would certainly try to drive wages for these kinds of entry level “basic” jobs to $0/hr if left to its own devices. That being said these people trying to tout a jump to $15 min wage for these kinds of jobs and pretending like that’s a livable wage in 2024 are idiots, that’s a fine min wage for snot nosed high school and college kids working part time for video game/beer money but you aren’t living on that anywhere in America today, maybe bum fuck nowhere rural Mississippi or Alabama but that’s about it.

No I really don’t have a better idea so don’t ask, my belief is just it’s a good thing to have a min wage floor but don’t act like it’s a livable wage unless it actually is…

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13414

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Posted
6 minutes ago, Evil Bill Obrien said:

I made roughly minimum wage in the early-mid 2000’s as a bored teenager in high school and then as a college student part time just looking for some beer money. Absolutely think minimum wage should exist to protect against the race to the bottom of capitalism that would certainly try to drive wages for these kinds of entry level “basic” jobs to $0/hr if left to its own devices. That being said these people trying to tout a jump to $15 min wage for these kinds of jobs and pretending like that’s a livable wage in 2024 are idiots, that’s a fine min wage for snot nosed high school and college kids working part time for video game/beer money but you aren’t living on that anywhere in America today, maybe bum fuck nowhere rural Mississippi or Alabama but that’s about it.

No I really don’t have a better idea so don’t ask, my belief is just it’s a good thing to have a min wage floor but don’t act like it’s a livable wage unless it actually is…

It's definitely sad when an adult, let's say 30+ year old, only has the skill set to work minimum wage such as fast food. Short of someone having a disability (mental or physical), there are higher paying jobs out there such as house cleaning or manual/yard work. I can understand not wanting to work outside or scrub toilets but we shouldn't "incentivize" someone to effectively work in a go-nowhere job (fast food) for a pay where you squeak by.

But I also get pissed when you hear about people working for these large employers, and some are receiving Medicaid or food stamps. When that occurs, the taxpayer is subsidizing McDonalds or WalMart.

I don't have a better idea either.

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Willfully Horn

Willfully Horn 7920

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8 hours ago, bernorange said:

FWIW, the CABIA ad:

https://cabia.org/app/uploads/240604_CABIA_USATodayAd_InMemoriam-1.pdf

clearly cites the Hoover Institution (from Stanford U) as the source for their claims/quote.  Here's the Hoover Institute's page in the issue:

https://www.hoover.org/research/california-loses-nearly-10000-fast-food-jobs-after-20-minimum-wage-signed-last-fall

You likely need to contact them directly if you want more details on how they tabulated their numbers.  Surly sure does love ad hominems 

Would you be swayed by the conclusions of a left leaning think tank? I propose the CBO is a more fitting benchmark for discussion of the raising the minimum wage act. Yes, some folks lose jobs, and yes, the deficit climbs. But, the poorest families, overall, do better. IMO, that is the intent of the act.

 

image.thumb.png.880fb412349a8434777bc5b6b59a2311.png

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/55681

 

A deeper dive into the economic and budgetary dynamics of raising the minimum wage.

https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2021-02/56975-Minimum-Wage.pdf

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HornOnTheBayou

HornOnTheBayou 8881

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Posted
11 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

It's definitely sad when an adult, let's say 30+ year old, only has the skill set to work minimum wage such as fast food. Short of someone having a disability (mental or physical), there are higher paying jobs out there such as house cleaning or manual/yard work. I can understand not wanting to work outside or scrub toilets but we shouldn't "incentivize" someone to effectively work in a go-nowhere job (fast food) for a pay where you squeak by.

But I also get pissed when you hear about people working for these large employers, and some are receiving Medicaid or food stamps. When that occurs, the taxpayer is subsidizing McDonalds or WalMart.

I don't have a better idea either.

This is the issue right here. 

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safe sex

safe sex 11686

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You can disincentivize adults working in "dead end jobs" all you want, but in the American capitalist hellscape we inhabit, there will always be a good number of those people, and they deserve the dignity of a living wage just like everyone else

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royiv

royiv 9170

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Posted

Yeah, fuck people who think workers deserve a living wage in this country. What kind of shit is that? No worker in this country deserves the dignity of eking out a living.

The hypocrisy between “pull yourself up by the bootstraps” and “no one deserves a living wage” is quite remarkable.

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aggie08

aggie08 21436

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Posted
1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

Deserve. Lulz. 

Never miss a chance to shit on poor people, amiright?

Yes, anyone who can find and maintain a place in the work force--however menial and beneath you their job may be to you--"deserves" the ability to afford the very basic necessities required to live. 

How is that a controversial statement? What the fuck is wrong with you? (Apart from the blatantly obvious.)

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fattyflattie

fattyflattie 4636

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22 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Never miss a chance to shit on poor people, amiright?

Yes, anyone who can find and maintain a place in the work force--however menial and beneath you their job may be to you--"deserves" the ability to afford the very basic necessities required to live. 

How is that a controversial statement? What the fuck is wrong with you? (Apart from the blatantly obvious.)

They are free to find employment that pays them their “worth”.  Or to find a place they can afford to live (but I WANT to live in ATX or Nashville!!1!).  Most people understand if you don’t want to work in fast food, skip the neck and face tattoos and attend a couple of community college courses. Voila! You’re now certified to work the desk at the minute clinic or secretary in Corp USA  or whatever he fuck is between fast food and college educated.  It’s pretty fucking simple to understand, and deserve doesn’t have a lick of shit to do with it.  

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13414

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Posted
8 hours ago, safe sex said:

You can disincentivize adults working in "dead end jobs" all you want, but in the American capitalist hellscape we inhabit, there will always be a good number of those people, and they deserve the dignity of a living wage just like everyone else

Yes but the system will eventually adjust. Everyone with incomes already will also see a rise income, followed by a rise in prices, and that livable wage disappears. This doesn’t happen overnight but it does happen.

there are livable wage+ job options for almost anyone but some dont want those jobs or for some reason they’re incapable of being trained for other jobs.

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