Min Wage Increase Doesn't Impact Employement

[Bozo_Casanova 26951]

1 hour ago, HornOnTheBayou said:

We're not suggesting that fast-food workers should make six figures. We just trying to give someone working 40 hours a week a small break so they can hopefully save some money and flourish.

Let me make an analogy that might help: imagine if rep was money and a poster was struggling with getting rep (or money, in this case). It would be like a user creating a sock account just to give themselves more rep. It wouldn't be enough for them to become the highest repped poster, but it would keep them out of the red. But what am I saying? My analogy is a little silly, because no one would ever do something like that. RIght?

First of all, the minimum wage should be higher, as an enforcement tool to prevent employers from socializing the cost of doing business through the welfare system. It should NOT be a system of enabling low consumer costs or full employment- direct subsidy in the first case and stimulus or better yet direct employment in the second  does that job a lot better and cheaper.
I realize I’m a pro-market outlier, but as a general rule it’s my view that any employer with more than 1000ish employees or franchised business with the equivalent should be surcharged in the amount of public assistance received by any employee, prorated to the fraction of full time they work. 
Got an employee on Medicaid and SNAP because you don’t pay them enough to eat and see a doctor? You’re paying for it one way or another. 

Edited 18 hours ago by Bozo_Casanova

[Bozo_Casanova 26951]

@HornOnTheBayou all that being said/ the minimum wage should not and is not something a lot of people are actually paid and it’s a lousy proxy to  discuss employment and wages, in the same way that minority admissions at Harvard are a lousy proxy for educational opportunities for minorities.

Edited 18 hours ago by Bozo_Casanova

[The Original Greaser Bob 2903]

17 hours ago, Captainant said:

You act like they wouldn't be doing this even if they were still paying minimum wage lol

You but you act like they can't make an argument that fear of increased wages is increasing the speed of implementation of automation.  I remain skeptical of the argument that is being made as well, but it's an argument that one should consider.  

I do think that there is only so much we can get accomplished with minimum wage laws and that some other form of income supplementation might be a better solution. 

Damn, the future is scary. 

 

[Bozo_Casanova 26951]

31 minutes ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

You but you act like they can't make an argument that fear of increased wages is increasing the speed of implementation of automation.  I remain skeptical of the argument that is being made as well, but it's an argument that one should consider.  

The automation of routine work is an intrinsic goal unto itself.
“Fear of increased wages” is the wrong comparison. The right comparison is paying a person or feeding an animal to do a thing. Until the cost of a person or animal is zero, faster, cheaper, and more consistently will almost always win out. That’s the nature of any technological disruption since the beginning of time. 
 

 

31 minutes ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

I do think that there is only so much we can get accomplished with minimum wage laws and that some other form of income supplementation might be a better solution. 

There is very little you can accomplish with minimum wage laws beyond establishing a baseline of income for a working person and thus the minimum legal attendant cost of a unit of human time. However- if we were using the tax code to capture the  externalities of labor getting an insufficient share of productivity, we wouldn’t need income supplementation because  people would make more (and stuff would be more expensive and durable).

Edited 17 hours ago by Bozo_Casanova

[RDCanecutter 26969]

@Bozo_Casanova got a new hammer for Christmas and he's hammering nails. Keep it up.

[Bozo_Casanova 26951]

1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

However- if we were using the tax code to capture the  externalities of labor getting an insufficient share of productivity, we wouldn’t need income supplementation because  people would make more (and stuff would be more expensive and durable).

Ok, and a bonus: what is described above is not some radical dream. It’s the US labor market as it existed from the end of WWII-1994, and began to decline in the early 70’s as the labor participation rate rose and union membership fell off. It is significant to the structure of that market that it included much more expensive stuff. 
Once upon a time the labor movement looked at automation and machines as holding the potential to create a golden age of shorter hours, higher wages, a radically higher standard of living, and so on.
It still could, if we get the tax code right. 

Edited 15 hours ago by Bozo_Casanova

[bernorange 8388]

1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

... and began to decline in the early 70’s ... 

https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/

[horn4life 3842]

The primary reason the minimum wage should be higher, is so taxpayers do not permanently subsidize full time workers at low wage jobs.

 

 

 

[Bozo_Casanova 26951]

30 minutes ago, bernorange said:

https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/

[royiv 9916]

2 hours ago, horn4life said:

The primary reason the minimum wage should be higher, is so taxpayers do not permanently subsidize full time workers at low wage jobs.

 

 

 

I get where you’re coming from, but the extension is that the taxpayer is subsidizing the employer who isn’t paying a living wage.

[Bozo_Casanova 26951]

10 minutes ago, royiv said:

I get where you’re coming from, but the extension is that the taxpayer is subsidizing the employer who isn’t paying a living wage.

Outside of specific circumstances, that’s bad.

[Ag with kids 584]

10 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

You seemed to indicate that tipping had some relationship for you to how much the server made, and said that if restaurants in Texas paid more than the minimum wage, you would think about not tipping or eating out less, presumably because you inferred you would have to be overpaying. 
At this point virtually all restaurants in large and most medium Texas cities are paying way above the minimum wage just to keep staff. You still tipping and eating out or did you cut back, as you said?

My point was specifically about restaurants that pay BASED on tipping.  The ones who pay $2.31/hr where it was expected that they would make up the rest in tips.

But, if you paid them $15/hr, why would I need to tip?  Their pay isn't based on the tipping model any more.

Just like the European model...or every fast food restaurant or store people go into.  When have you tipped the cashier when you got your Whataburger with Cheese?  Or even at QT or Buccees where they pay higher wages (of course, they're hiring from a different pool of people because of that)?

 

BTW, where in TX has the MW been moved up to $15/hr?  I know it's not in Corpus.  Places may PAY that much, but it isn't mandated by law.

 

 

Oh...and...I'm quite sure the reason I don't post here on this specific forum will be realized quite quickly.

So, thanks...

 

[StassneyHorn 6791]

How grocery stores got people to use self checkout due to their own store’s inefficiencies, and not offer a discount or cheaper groceries was fun to observe.

Wasn’t even automation. Just a “Would you like to prove you can do our jobs quicker than our employees?” 

[Pato del Muerto 53629]

9 minutes ago, StassneyHorn said:

How grocery stores got people to use self checkout due to their own store’s inefficiencies, and not offer a discount or cheaper groceries was fun to observe.

Wasn’t even automation. Just a “Would you like to prove you can do our jobs quicker than our employees?” 

Nothing wrong with giving customers the opportunity to save time by doing some of the work themselves.  People at these places are free to do their own calc of what their time is worth on each trip and choose accordingly. 

[StassneyHorn 6791]

All anyone does with that newfound time is masturbate in the parking lot

[Biff Tannen 46250]

17 minutes ago, StassneyHorn said:

How grocery stores got people to use self checkout due to their own store’s inefficiencies, and not offer a discount or cheaper groceries was fun to observe.

Wasn’t even automation. Just a “Would you like to prove you can do our jobs quicker than our employees?” 

Because my grocery store got ALL of my letters that said, “I WANT TO BE A CHECKOUT CLERK!”

[MissingInAction 25621]

8 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

First of all, the minimum wage should be higher, as an enforcement tool to prevent employers from socializing the cost of doing business through the welfare system. It should NOT be a system of enabling low consumer costs or full employment- direct subsidy in the first case and stimulus or better yet direct employment in the second  does that job a lot better and cheaper.
I realize I’m a pro-market outlier, but as a general rule it’s my view that any employer with more than 1000ish employees or franchised business with the equivalent should be surcharged in the amount of public assistance received by any employee, prorated to the fraction of full time they work. 
Got an employee on Medicaid and SNAP because you don’t pay them enough to eat and see a doctor? You’re paying for it one way or another. 

Agree 100%, and I've wasted time trying to explain that economic truth to all spectrums of belief systems.

Full outright facism is their solution.

Liquidate those who can't contribute along with those they hate.

ad nauseum 

[Bozo_Casanova 26951]

36 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

My point was specifically about restaurants that pay BASED on tipping.  The ones who pay $2.31/hr where it was expected that they would make up the rest in tips.

Where are these restaurants in real life in 2024?

37 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

But, if you paid them $15/hr, why would I need to tip?  Their pay isn't based on the tipping model any more

You mean like the ones that guarantee a $15/hour floor net of tips? Or the ones who can’t keep line cooks? Tell me none of your kids work restaurant jobs without telling me. 
 

38 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

BTW, where in TX has the MW been moved up to $15/hr?  I know it's not in Corpus.  Places may PAY that much, but it isn't mandated by law.

Correct, because almost no restaurants in Texas cities pay the minimum wage to staff they have to train. It’s not viable. 
 

39 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Oh...and...I'm quite sure the reason I don't post here on this specific forum will be realized quite quickly.

So, thanks...

💋 

[Ag with kids 584]

40 minutes ago, StassneyHorn said:

How grocery stores got people to use self checkout due to their own store’s inefficiencies, and not offer a discount or cheaper groceries was fun to observe.

Wasn’t even automation. Just a “Would you like to prove you can do our jobs quicker than our employees?” 

Before Piggly Wiggly, there weren't shopping carts to go through the grocery store.  You would go to the counter clerk and give them a list of items you wanted.

Piggly Wiggly gave people the option to pick out their own stuff.  OR, did they shift the work load to the customer?

The self-checkout was along the same concept.  Gave the customer the option to check out their own stuff.  OR did they shift the work load to the customer?

[StassneyHorn 6791]

They shifted the workload. Very clear. As a result I steal from them, because wage theft is a crime

[Ag with kids 584]

25 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

 

Quote

Where are these restaurants in real life in 2024?

Ummm...everywhere in Texas?  That's the whole point of the tipping model.  Can you tell me which restaurants do NOT pay $2.31/hr in TX?

Quote

You mean like the ones that guarantee a $15/hour floor net of tips? Or the ones who can’t keep line cooks? Tell me none of your kids work restaurant jobs without telling me. 

Ummm...no, the the ones that guarantee they're paid $15/hr WITHOUT tips (which is what most of the laws are doing).

I don't know any restaurants that pay line cooks on the tipping model.

And, yeah, I've had kids work both in the front and the back.  The ones in the front were on the tipping model.  The ones in the back were paid straight hourly.

 

Quote

Correct, because almost no restaurants in Texas cities pay the minimum wage to staff they have to train. It’s not viable. 

Maybe you need to move out of your enclave to understand that they actually do...we can't all go to Michelin restaurants, you know.

[Ag with kids 584]

12 minutes ago, StassneyHorn said:

They shifted the workload. Very clear. As a result I steal from them, because wage theft is a crime

Cool, so cheating on taxes should be kosher, since they're doing wage theft...

[Bozo_Casanova 26951]

27 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Ummm...everywhere in Texas?  That's the whole point of the tipping model.  Can you tell me which restaurants do NOT pay $2.31/hr in TX?

Most of them. It works like this: my 15 year old kid gets a job in a restaurant in Austin like 6 years ago (it’s more now, stay with me). Her “wage” is $5/hr, because NOBODY ACTUALLY MAKES MINIMUM WAGE in customer facing roles or jobs that require training in Texas, but they guarantee that she will make 17.50/hr net of tips and make up whatever tips don’t cover. Of course for grown-up staff those numbers are much higher, like $12&$20 or $25 straight. 
in other words, you’re making a distinction without a difference. It might be $2.31, but even when it is, it’s not, and nobody even offers it because it’s a bad look and restaurants who try it can’t stay open.

27 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Ummm...no, the the ones that guarantee they're paid $15/hr WITHOUT tips (which is what most of the laws are doing).

Um, no.

27 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

I don't know any restaurants that pay line cooks on the tipping model.

 

Do you have any idea how hard it is to keep line cooks in a city in Texas? They aren’t often getting much or any of the tip out but they aren’t making the minimum wage unless the restaurant REALLY wants to be short staff in the kitchen until they go out of business.

27 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

And, yeah, I've had kids work both in the front and the back.  The ones in the front were on the tipping model.  The ones in the back were paid straight hourly.

Tips exist, yes. But they didn’t have a floor? Floors are common in big cities. I’m assuming they didn’t stick around?

27 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Maybe you need to move out of your enclave to understand that they actually do...we can't all go to Michelin restaurants, you know.

Well I do live in Austin but I’m looking at server and cook listings in corpus and indeed and it’s all around $15-17/hr.

Edited 9 hours ago by Bozo_Casanova

[Incredulity 11886]

12 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

and indeed and it’s all around $15-17/hr.

No one gets workers for less than this range.  Walmart and Amazon have set the floor and made the Federal Min Wage irrelevant.  It’s actually laughable that there aren’t enough people in congress who recognize this truth and take the win of bumping up the federal rate.

I’d be all for raising the minimum wage wage to above 20(or pick a number) accompanied by cutting taxes and reducing the “socialising” of costs.  But that’s got about zero percent chance of happening.  See above congressional ineptitude.

[Ag with kids 584]

25 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Most of them. It works like this: my 15 year old kid gets a job in a restaurant in Austin like 6 years ago (it’s more now, stay with me). Her “wage” is $5/hr, because NOBODY ACTUALLY MAKES MINIMUM WAGE in customer facing roles or jobs that require training in Texas, but they guarantee that she will make 17.50/hr net of tips and make up whatever tips don’t cover. Of course for grown-up staff those numbers are much higher, like $12&$20 or $25 straight. 
in other words, you’re making a distinction without a difference. It might be $2.31, but even when it is, it’s not, and nobody even offers it because it’s a bad look and restaurants who try it can’t stay open.

Um, no.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to keep line cooks in a city in Texas? They aren’t often getting much or any of the tip out but they aren’t making the minimum wage unless the restaurant REALLY wants to be short staff in the kitchen until they go out of business.

Tips exist, yes. But they didn’t have a floor? Floors are common in big cities. I’m assuming they didn’t stick around?

Well I do live in Austin but I’m looking at server and cook listings in corpus and indeed and it’s all around $15-17/hr.

Quote

Most of them. It works like this: my 15 year old kid gets a job in a restaurant in Austin like 6 years ago (it’s more now, stay with me). Her “wage” is $5/hr, because NOBODY ACTUALLY MAKES MINIMUM WAGE in customer facing roles or jobs that require training in Texas, but they guarantee that she will make 17.50/hr net of tips and make up whatever tips don’t cover. Of course for grown-up staff those numbers are much higher, like $12&$20 or $25 straight. 
in other words, you’re making a distinction without a difference. It might be $2.31, but even when it is, it’s not, and nobody even offers it because it’s a bad look and restaurants who try it can’t stay open.

"THEY" guarantee...by that, you mean the company she works at.  And NOT the government.

Ok.  I've never said that would be a problem.

The companies are making market decisions.  WOOHOO!  Exactly what I advocate for.

Quote

Um, no.

Since your quote didn't show what I was disagreeing with, I think I should repost it so there's context...

"Ummm...no, the the ones that guarantee they're paid $15/hr WITHOUT tips (which is what most of the laws are doing)."

I was SPECIFICALLY talking about the states/cities that made the ACTUAL MW $15/hr.  Not "net of tips".  If the company was paying them $15/hr, then they don't need those tips to make $15/hr "net of tips".  They're making it WITHOUT the tips.

Quote

 

[Ag with kids 584]

37 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Do you have any idea how hard it is to keep line cooks in a city in Texas? They aren’t often getting much or any of the tip out but they aren’t making the minimum wage unless the restaurant REALLY wants to be short staff in the kitchen until they go out of business.

Yes.  And it's hard even OUTSIDE the cities.

However, that has ZERO to do with what I'm talking about.

They are paid an hourly wage, NOT the $2.31/hr wage that is set up for the tipping model.

Stop trying to conflate my position on the MW for tipped employees with the the MW for NON-tipped employees.

Those are two entirely different things.

Quote

Tips exist, yes. But they didn’t have a floor? Floors are common in big cities. I’m assuming they didn’t stick around?

Well I do live in Austin but I’m looking at server and cook listings in corpus and indeed and it’s all around $15-17/hr.

Texas is a BIG place.

And half of the people do NOT live in big cities.

BTW, my son's GF is a bartender here on N Padre and I know a lot of the servers/bartenders here.  No one is "guaranteed" $15-17/hr here.  They MAY make it, but it's not guaranteed.  Again, that's on how much they make on tips.

You know...because they're paid by the TIPPING model.

[royiv 9916]

3 hours ago, Ag with kids said:

My point was specifically about restaurants that pay BASED on tipping.  The ones who pay $2.31/hr where it was expected that they would make up the rest in tips.

But, if you paid them $15/hr, why would I need to tip?  Their pay isn't based on the tipping model any more.

Just like the European model...or every fast food restaurant or store people go into.  When have you tipped the cashier when you got your Whataburger with Cheese?  Or even at QT or Buccees where they pay higher wages (of course, they're hiring from a different pool of people because of that)?

 

BTW, where in TX has the MW been moved up to $15/hr?  I know it's not in Corpus.  Places may PAY that much, but it isn't mandated by law.

 

 

Oh...and...I'm quite sure the reason I don't post here on this specific forum will be realized quite quickly.

So, thanks...

 

Here’s a man that has never patronized a restaurant nicer than Applebee’s.