Dallas officer kills man after mistaking apartment for her own, police say

[4th and 5 4929]

4 hours ago, Gene Parmesan said:

I would guess that if he killed her under the same set of facts it would be pretty easy self defense claim on his behalf.  Killing an armed stranger that walked into your apartment/house that is.  The only thing that would make me hesitant is her being a cop, but it's not like she knocked and announced herself as police she just walked right in.

Maybe not. Would his belief had been reasonable if she was in uniform? This would assume he had the ability to see and perceive her uniform. Or that he used force prior. Depends on how she enters. If she just walks in or is beating on the door because she can't get it to open. It is all a matter of his perspective at the time of the incident. I don't think he would get the presumption that the force used was reasonable in the castle doctrine if he had an opportunity to see her in uniform, plus he was in possession of marijuana. And I think there is doubt whether he would get the stand your ground / no duty to retreat instruction in 9.31(e) and (f) because he was in possession of marijuana....Still, he could claim self defense but would not get the benefit of the presumption and instruction.

(a)........The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or

(C) was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery;

(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and

(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.

 

 

(e) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the force is used is not required to retreat before using force as described by this section.

(f) For purposes of Subsection (a), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (e) reasonably believed that the use of force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat.

 

 

3 hours ago, El Diablo said:

Would be interesting. I'd think there would be some questions. I mean, she's a cop. She executes warrants all day. She's trained to not just enter folks' homes without following proper police procedures. If the black guy was the only witness to the shooting of a cop I'm afraid it might go badly regardless of the circumstances or truth.

 

3 hours ago, Gene Parmesan said:

Yeah it muddies the waters, but the same set of facts would be under the pretense that she believes she was walking into her apartment.  So there would be no police procedures to follow or warrants to execute because she (in her mind) is walking into her apartment. 

Agree with the above, but while the procedures would not, in fact, have been followed, it might look like they had been, or could have been argued by the state that they might have been, because with her not there to testify, their theory would have been she smelled weed, knocked on the guy's door, there was a struggle, he shot her, etc. It could be argued (logically, but wrongly) to have taken place in her capacity as a peace officer

2 hours ago, El Diablo said:

Wouldn't surprise me a bit if the guy was indicted under those circumstances. I doubt he'd be convicted but he'd be the ham sandwich.

Agreed.

2 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

If he killed her, we wouldn’t know that she thought it was her apartment.  The facts would simply be dead white cop, black shooter, drugs found at the scene.  End of story, welcome to Huntsville.

With her not available to testify, it's scary how this could really happen.

2 hours ago, Gene Parmesan said:

We wouldn't know that she lived directly above/below, was off duty, and had no police reason to be at that apartment?

God point, but see above. The state's working theory is probably she happens to smell some green, makes contact and gets killed. Could sounds a lot more plausible than she's a dumbass and entered the wrong apartment. There may be no dispatch logs, calls for service or radio transmissions to document her police activity. I don't think the absence of this paper trail would necessarily negate action in her capacity as a peace officer, but it could certainly be offered as relevant evidence that tended to prove she was not there as a cop, but rather just going home. Along with same apartment, different floor, walking in with a bunch of personal effects, etc.

Either scenario makes for an interesting trial.

 

 

 

[TexasEd 8163]

Would she have radioed that she was going to go into his house?  If that is normal procedure that she did not follow when breaking into his house that would all the other procedures into question.

 

For that matter, do we know if she radioed in before she killed him?

[immortal13 4059]

6 minutes ago, TexasEd said:

Would she have radioed that she was going to go into his house?  If that is normal procedure that she did not follow when breaking into his house that would all the other procedures into question.

 

For that matter, do we know if she radioed in before she killed him?

Did you even read the article?

[FondrenRoad 4378]

On 12/4/2018 at 2:49 PM, conVINCEd said:

If he killed her, we wouldn’t know that she thought it was her apartment.  The facts would simply be dead white cop, black shooter, drugs found at the scene.  End of story, welcome to Huntsville.

Plus they could make up all kinds of bullshit since she was dead. She could have heard a disturbance.  Anything to justify her entrance, and it would all be unverifiable which favors the cops in court. 

Huntsville wasnt gonna happen though. With dead white cop, black shooter, the shooters rarely sees the inside of a prison.  He kills her in self defense and then what? Calls 911? Right. Cops are definitely gonna come in hot then. Run to friend's house and hide out?  Even worse because then he looks guilty. Dude was near guaranteed to die as soon as that bitch broke into his apartment whether he was armed or not. 

[immortal13 4059]

17 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Plus they could make up all kinds of bullshit since she was dead. She could have heard a disturbance.  Anything to justify her entrance, and it would all be unverifiable which favors the cops in court. 

Huntsville wasnt gonna happen though. With dead white cop, black shooter, the shooters rarely sees the inside of a prison.  He kills her in self defense and then what? Calls 911? Right. Cops are definitely gonna come in hot then. Run to friend's house and hide out?  Even worse because then he looks guilty. Dude was near guaranteed to die as soon as that bitch broke into his apartment whether he was armed or not. 

And she would've been honored as a hero(ine)

Edited December 7, 2018 by immortal13

[TwiceHorn 31705]

The latest:  https://www.dallasnews.com/news/courts/2019/01/29/amber-guygers-new-look-no-accident-say-attorneys-skilled-remaking-client

[Deej 77312]

Looks like white trash trying too hard.

[Zepol87 9263]

^^^nailed

[Guest Lobo]

You see, she's taking the unfortunate loss of life very seriously.  

By the way, if you're any darker than Edgar Winter---it's hunting season on your ass.  Be warned.  

It's official in 2018, U.S. police murdered more people than the Gestapo did at its peak.  But nope, nothing to worry about if you're not doing anything wrong.  

[JohnnyRage 1617]

I would be more inclined to prejudge the defendant on the left. The one on the right looks like someone just doing their job.

[BBQ2Bayou 807]

How has a fuck video not been leaked of her? It's out there and it's freaky. I know it is and I would watch it. 

[Shaggy3.0 1695]

How has a fuck video not been leaked of her? It's out there and it's freaky. I know it is and I would watch it. 

Yep. Puts some lipstick on her and she’s good fun zone material. I would.

[bluto 4947]

 

18 minutes ago, Shaggy3.0 said:

 

 

Yep. Puts some lipstick on her and she’s good fun zone material. I would.

 

 

Just make sure to keep the lights ON!

[El Diablo 4232]

I'm withholding judgment on her, the video cut off before I could see her from behind.

[housious 468]

On 12/1/2018 at 6:10 AM, texasjacket said:

And you would be able to sleep at night knowing full well, you let some one get away with murder? What happens when it is your apartment next time?

Lawyers are fuckfaces. All of them

[DDD Dad 14435]

Lawyers are fuckfaces. All of them

That’s a little excessive, speaking as a fuckface.

[NorthLoop 14308]

Hey DMN ... go. fuck. yourself. 

 

 

[4th and 5 4929]

It happens a lot more than you would think. I see it frequently as a criminal defense attorney. Also, I nearly killed my neighbor for the same thing. The story is on the shag somewhere.

[Beau Vine 55069]

12 hours ago, bluto said:

 

Just make sure to keep the lights ON!

GLASSES ON, LIGHTS OFF!!!
 

[High Plains Drifter 11092]

On 2/2/2019 at 9:05 PM, housious said:

Lawyers are fuckfaces. All of them

Until you need one.

[High Plains Drifter 11092]

On 2/3/2019 at 8:41 AM, BurntEyes said:

You might like to think it, but you'd be wrong. I had a friend die exactly this way. He was not armed, nor violent at all just drunk went into the wrong apartment and well..

RIP Matteo

 

On 2/3/2019 at 8:47 AM, 4th and 5 said:

It happens a lot more than you would think. I see it frequently as a criminal defense attorney. Also, I nearly killed my neighbor for the same thing. The story is on the shag somewhere.

 Jesus, no warning? Just start blasting? What if its a friend, or your kid? Or your neighbor? Are y'all really that scared?

[Brisketexan 105783]

23 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

 Jesus, no warning? Just start blasting? What if its a friend, or your kid? Or your neighbor? Are y'all really that scared?

You just gotta understand the rules in Texas:

There's nothing more manly than defending your home against any and all intruders with massive lethal force.  Only pussies hesitate.  Shoot someone coming through a door or window, and you're a damned hero who should be honored by the governor.*

* Unless that person you blow away is a cop, which you can't possibly tell in the middle of the night as they come busting in.  In THAT case, you're scum and should fry.  Good luck knowing the difference at 3:00 a.m. as your door is kicked off the hinges.

[High Plains Drifter 11092]

 

5 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

"Are y'all really that scared???"

Who the fuck are you talking to?

I didn't shoot my own friend you fucking moron.

 

OK, OK, I'm sorry. Let me rephrase:

 

24 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

 Jesus, no warning? Some eople just start blasting? Do they not consider that it could be a friend, or their kid or neighbor? Are some people really that scared?

 

Better?

 

Seriously, I wasn't intentionally accusing you or 4th and 5 of living in fear. I was just typing fast.

[4th and 5 4929]

Your knowledge is limited as it relates to these types of events.  

In my case, my target was confirmed. If you were in the situation I was in, you would have been terrified for your own safety and that of your family. My former neighbor made some bad choices and almost got a Darwin award.

[El Diablo 4232]

49 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You just gotta understand the rules in Texas:

There's nothing more manly than defending your home against any and all intruders with massive lethal force.  Only pussies hesitate.  Shoot someone coming through a door or window, and you're a damned hero who should be honored by the governor.*

* Unless that person you blow away is a cop, which you can't possibly tell in the middle of the night as they come busting in.  In THAT case, you're scum and should fry.  Good luck knowing the difference at 3:00 a.m. as your door is kicked off the hinges.

Pity the fool whose dog barks. errybody dies. God forbid a man go to his door to see what the commotion is about at that hour and carry a gun with him.

[ztejas 43786]

7 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Anyone comes into my house at night uninvited they are getting shot. Cop, neighbor, meth head, tooth fairy, etc.

What if it's a neighbor's busty 19-year-old daughter home from college dripping wet in a towel asking if she can use your shower because their hot water ran out? 

[Llano Estacado 1257]

What if it's a neighbor's busty 19-year-old daughter home from college dripping wet in a towel asking if she can use your shower because their hot water ran out? 

[ztejas 43786]

3 minutes ago, Llano Estacado said:

 

 

What can I say. Unmeditated gun violence turns me on. 

[Chewbacca 7808]

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

What if it's a neighbor's busty 19-year-old daughter home from college dripping wet in a towel asking if she can use your shower because their hot water ran out? 

Go on...

[Vic Mackey 47439]

So what's what's the update on this dumb bitch?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

Go on...

I'm out.....

[4th and 5 4929]

3 hours ago, ztejas said:

What if it's a neighbor's busty 19-year-old daughter home from college dripping wet in a towel asking if she can use your shower because their hot water ran out? 

does she look like this?

most definitely 

NSFW

[4th and 5 4929]

sounds like a wonderful neighborhood

[ztejas 43786]

38 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

I live in the real world where none of my "neighbors" kids are going to college.

College student, bartender, exotic dance understudy, it's all the same.

[TXSooner518 2440]

What if it's a neighbor's busty 19-year-old daughter home from college dripping wet in a towel asking if she can use your shower because their hot water ran out? 

Oh she’s definitely getting shot.

[bernorange 8377]

Quote

The woman who filmed the aftermath of the shooting of Botham Jean — the man killed in his own apartment by former Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger — said she has been receiving death threats and was fired from her job after she uploaded the video to social media.
...
 Bunny said she gave the video to the Dallas County District Attorney's Office. Prosecutors did not offer a comment to ABC News due to a gag order on the case.

The harassment began shortly after Bunny uploaded the video to social media, she said.

"I did get a few threats from people saying they weren't gonna leave any witnesses behind, telling me I need to watch my back, things like that," she said.
...

More:  https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/neighbor-filmed-aftermath-shooting-botham-jean-received-death/story?id=60750902

 

[TwiceHorn 31705]

10 minutes ago, bernorange said:

More:  https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/neighbor-filmed-aftermath-shooting-botham-jean-received-death/story?id=60750902

 

Interdasting.

I can certainly feature the threats from redneck-types and cop-types, but the employment action seems very odd.

[Deej 77312]

19 hours ago, ztejas said:

What if it's a neighbor's busty 19-year-old daughter home from college dripping wet in a towel asking if she can use your shower because their hot water ran out? 

I'd ask to borrow her towel. My car just hit a water buffalo.

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

6 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Interdasting.

I can certainly feature the threats from redneck-types and cop-types, but the employment action seems very odd.

Some people have redneck-types and cop-types for employers.

[Seasick Sailor 3747]

20 hours ago, ztejas said:

What if it's a neighbor's busty 19-year-old daughter home from college dripping wet in a towel asking if she can use your shower because their hot water ran out? 

I wouldn't shoot her, but my wife would.

[Doc Reeves 6434]

On 2/4/2019 at 1:23 PM, ztejas said:

What if it's a neighbor's busty 19-year-old daughter home from college dripping wet in a towel asking if she can use your shower because their hot water ran out? 

Then I would add her to the... collection...

[Kyle 207]

5 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Interdasting.

I can certainly feature the threats from redneck-types and cop-types, but the employment action seems very odd.

"Bunny did not reveal the name of the company because she is in the process of appealing the blacklisting of her credentials, she said. ABC News could not independently confirm her claims that she was fired, or, if so, why."

 

[PilotsError 2338]

Did Amber Guyger Go On A Caribbean Cruise After Killing Botham Jean?

 

Amber Guyger won’t go to trial for killing Botham Jean in his own apartment until Aug. 12 — nearly a year after taking the 26-year-old’s life. Although everyone on the case is not allowed to speak to the media due to a court-issued gag order, court records revealed that Guyger may have gone on a Caribbean cruise after killing Jean.

 

The new report came after Guyger and her attorneys made a brief court appearance Monday.

Aside from learning the trial date, “[t]he state also subpoenaed the cruise ship company Royal Caribbean to submit records ‘pertaining to all cruises taken by Guyger’ between Sept. 23, 2018, and March 4, 2019; beginning two weeks after Jean’s death,” NBC News reported.

The subpoena could be damning for Guuyger on multiple levels. Not only could it allow prosecutors to portray Guyger as a carefree vacationer following what appeared to be a cold-blooded murder of an innocent man. It could also show Guyger violated the terms of her conditional release from jail.

“Beginning in November 2018, the judge stated Guyger was to surrender her passport to her attorney and was not to travel outside Texas without the court’s approval,” NBC reminded.

On Dec. 1, a grand jury finally indicted the former police officer with murder for killing Jean. She was booked into the Mesquite Jail and released way too quickly on a $200,000 bond.

 

 

Guyger claimed on Sept. 6, she implausibly mistook his apartment for her own and, after ordering Jean not to move, shot him twice before realizing the error of her ways. Her story was met with doubt because of a number of factors, especially her assertion that Jean’s door was ajar. Videos posted on social media by neighbors appeared to show that apartment doors in the building shut automatically, which seemed to indicate that Guyger was lying.

In addition to the inconsistencies in her alibis, which have changed several times, Dallas police, of which Guyger was a member for five years before being fired, appeared to be helping to cover up the shooting for their colleague. The department was accused of allowing Guyger enough time to scrub her social media accounts and get her story straight before turning herself in three days after killing Jean. It also gave Guyger enough time to move out of her apartment, which was never searched by police despite five warrants allowing them to do so.

Murder charges against a police officer are notoriously hard to prosecute. There are roughly 1,000 police shootings every year in the United States, but officers seldom face justice. According to CNN, only 80 cops were arrested on murder or manslaughter charges for on-duty shootings between 2005 and April 2017. However, only 35 percent of those arrests led to convictions in that 12-year period.

Let’s hope Botham Jean gets justice.

https://newsone.com/3848852/amber-guyger-cruise-subpoena/

[El Diablo 4232]

Well good for rampant speculation I guess. Was she seen with Elvis? or Bigfoot?

[WhatTheBuck 28854]

Never click on a headline that's framed as a question. 

[TwiceHorn 31705]

As noted in the article, two issues here.  One, it's a bad look and two a possible bail conditions violation.  So now everybody's "haha, stupid bitch, throw her in jail for violating her bail."

But hold up.  Bail and pretrial detention serve the primary purpose of securing a defendant's appearance at trial.  The second purpose may be to detain someone thought to be a danger to society.  There cannot and should not be any element of punishment in bail/detention decisions, unless a failed attempt to flee the jurisdiction is proven (and that is really an entirely separate crime).

Remember, in our system, the defendant is innocent until proven guilty and a defendant under bail or in pretrial detention is, emphatically, innocent.

So, to me, it is really problematic to detain her pending trial for this.  Now, is some punishment in order for ignoring court orders?  Probably yes, but also probably far short of detention, or detention for more than a few days or weeks.  A fine or a GPS monitor or a curfew or something is probably more appropriate.

Now, before someone jumps my shit for defending Amber Guyger, this is a general statement of how I think things should play out for defendants pre-trial, not a commentary on the actions of Amber Guyger.

Our criminal justice system is FUBAR.  In our gusto for seeing justice (more accurately retribution and punishment, justice aint got shit to do with it) for certain defendants, we entirely lose sight of the fact that for every shithead defendant that deserves "justice," there are a hundred thousand other defendants being ground to dust in our system.

 

 

[irishtexan 11612]

12 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

As noted in the article, two issues here.  One, it's a bad look and two a possible bail conditions violation.  So now everybody's "haha, stupid bitch, throw her in jail for violating her bail."

But hold up.  Bail and pretrial detention serve the primary purpose of securing a defendant's appearance at trial.  The second purpose may be to detain someone thought to be a danger to society.  There cannot and should not be any element of punishment in bail/detention decisions, unless a failed attempt to flee the jurisdiction is proven (and that is really an entirely separate crime).

Remember, in our system, the defendant is innocent until proven guilty and a defendant under bail or in pretrial detention is, emphatically, innocent.

So, to me, it is really problematic to detain her pending trial for this.  Now, is some punishment in order for ignoring court orders?  Probably yes, but also probably far short of detention, or detention for more than a few days or weeks.  A fine or a GPS monitor or a curfew or something is probably more appropriate.

Now, before someone jumps my shit for defending Amber Guyger, this is a general statement of how I think things should play out for defendants pre-trial, not a commentary on the actions of Amber Guyger.

Our criminal justice system is FUBAR.  In our gusto for seeing justice (more accurately retribution and punishment, justice aint got shit to do with it) for certain defendants, we entirely lose sight of the fact that for every shithead defendant that deserves "justice," there are a hundred thousand other defendants being ground to dust in our system.

 

 

Yeah. OK. But fuck her. 

[TwiceHorn 31705]

Just now, irishtexan said:

Yeah. OK. But fuck her. 

Lol fine. 

[Huckleberry 33694]

15 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

As noted in the article, two issues here.  One, it's a bad look and two a possible bail conditions violation.  So now everybody's "haha, stupid bitch, throw her in jail for violating her bail."

But hold up.  Bail and pretrial detention serve the primary purpose of securing a defendant's appearance at trial.  The second purpose may be to detain someone thought to be a danger to society.  There cannot and should not be any element of punishment in bail/detention decisions, unless a failed attempt to flee the jurisdiction is proven (and that is really an entirely separate crime).

Remember, in our system, the defendant is innocent until proven guilty and a defendant under bail or in pretrial detention is, emphatically, innocent.

So, to me, it is really problematic to detain her pending trial for this.  Now, is some punishment in order for ignoring court orders?  Probably yes, but also probably far short of detention, or detention for more than a few days or weeks.  A fine or a GPS monitor or a curfew or something is probably more appropriate.

Now, before someone jumps my shit for defending Amber Guyger, this is a general statement of how I think things should play out for defendants pre-trial, not a commentary on the actions of Amber Guyger.

Our criminal justice system is FUBAR.  In our gusto for seeing justice (more accurately retribution and punishment, justice aint got shit to do with it) for certain defendants, we entirely lose sight of the fact that for every shithead defendant that deserves "justice," there are a hundred thousand other defendants being ground to dust in our system.

 

 

On the one hand I completely agree with that take, on the other what she specifically did demonstrates a willingness and ability to ignore her bail conditions and leave the country. I'm fine with no jail time for it but I think the judge needs to personally observe her surrendering her passport.

However, on a a re-read of that piece it looks like it's possible the cruise was before she was indicted. If that's the case then all it really should be is an extremely damning piece of evidence at trial regarding her callous disregard for Jean's life.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Huckleberry

[Hawndoh 2406]

Taking a cruise shows just how confident she was that the department would cover it all up.