Dallas officer kills man after mistaking apartment for her own, police say

[TwiceHorn 31,495]

7 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

On the one hand I completely agree with that take, on the other what she specifically did demonstrates a willingness and ability to ignore her bail conditions and leave the country. I'm fine with no jail time for it but I think the judge needs to personally observe her surrendering her passport.

I wonder if she even needed her passport for the cruise she took?  I don't know how that works anymore.  And, would it/should it make any difference if she went to a casino in Oklahoma or Shreveport instead? 

I could actually see her failing to understand that she not only left Texas, but the US, most likely, on her cruise.  She doesn't strike me as the sharpest knife in the drawer.  "Buuut, I uh, left from Galveston and came back to Galveston, uhhhh, that's in Texas, uhhhh."

Edited March 20, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[Gene Parmesan 4,008]

Assuming she did go, I think the bad optics probably does more damage than any bail violation punishment.  But then again she won't be on trial for murder so maybe those optics don't really mean much.

[Cajun 11,714]

It’s a wandering daughter job.

[TwiceHorn 31,495]

Just now, Gene Parmesan said:

Assuming she did go, I think the bad optics probably does more damage than any bail violation punishment.  But then again she won't be on trial for murder so maybe those optics don't really mean much.

She was indicted on murder charges, so, unless the prosecution drops or dismisses that charge in favor of something it can't prove (the manslaughter offenses in Texas really don't apply here), yeah she will be on trial for murder.

[Gene Parmesan 4,008]

My bad.  For some reason I thought it wasn't a murder charge.

[RPM 26,322]

7 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

As noted in the article, two issues here.  One, it's a bad look and two a possible bail conditions violation.  So now everybody's "haha, stupid bitch, throw her in jail for violating her bail."

But hold up.  Bail and pretrial detention serve the primary purpose of securing a defendant's appearance at trial.  The second purpose may be to detain someone thought to be a danger to society.  There cannot and should not be any element of punishment in bail/detention decisions, unless a failed attempt to flee the jurisdiction is proven (and that is really an entirely separate crime).

Remember, in our system, the defendant is innocent until proven guilty and a defendant under bail or in pretrial detention is, emphatically, innocent.

So, to me, it is really problematic to detain her pending trial for this.  Now, is some punishment in order for ignoring court orders?  Probably yes, but also probably far short of detention, or detention for more than a few days or weeks.  A fine or a GPS monitor or a curfew or something is probably more appropriate.

Now, before someone jumps my shit for defending Amber Guyger, this is a general statement of how I think things should play out for defendants pre-trial, not a commentary on the actions of Amber Guyger.

Our criminal justice system is FUBAR.  In our gusto for seeing justice (more accurately retribution and punishment, justice aint got shit to do with it) for certain defendants, we entirely lose sight of the fact that for every shithead defendant that deserves "justice," there are a hundred thousand other defendants being ground to dust in our system.

 

 

Now ask yourself what if it was a black man (or anyone) who wasn't a police officer? Would the prosecutor would be just as willing to overlook violating terms of pre-trial release?

[Deej 76,830]

Of course not.

[El Diablo 4,232]

1 hour ago, RPM said:

Now ask yourself what if it was a black man (or anyone) who wasn't a police officer? Would the prosecutor would be just as willing to overlook violating terms of pre-trial release?

Do black folks do cruises?

[kevwun 15,797]

Yes.

[tucker 238]

3 hours ago, El Diablo said:

Do black folks do cruises?

They sit around the pool / ocean

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3,868]

12 hours ago, Hawndoh said:

Taking a cruise shows just how confident she was that the department would cover it all up. 

She could have booked the cruise before the shooting. 

[RPM 26,322]

37 minutes ago, ShaggyBevo RIP said:

She could have booked the cruise before the shooting. 

Yep. That totally overrides court orders.

[C-Man 27,230]

What's the latest here?

[Gene Parmesan 4,008]

16 minutes ago, C-Man said:

What's the latest here?

Heard on the ticket this morning that some pending cases where she was the arresting officer are being dropped.

[AbeFroman 2,192]

On 2/5/2019 at 9:25 AM, Seasick Sailor said:

I wouldn't shoot her, but my wife would.

 

[Guest Lobo]

On 3/20/2019 at 11:44 PM, RPM said:

Yep. That totally overrides court orders.

Maritime law and what not.  Be a shame if Captain mistook her cabin for his.  

[RPM 26,322]

1 hour ago, Gene Parmesan said:

Heard on the ticket this morning that some pending cases where she was the arresting officer are being dropped.

 

 

[Cajun 11,714]

On 3/20/2019 at 6:43 PM, El Diablo said:

Do black folks do cruises?

Isaac did.

Every damned day.

[Cajun 11,714]

2 hours ago, AbeFroman said:

 

Good ole Medano beach.  I've done, uh, the very same kind of "research" there.

Much more covertly, however.

[TwiceHorn 31,495]

52 minutes ago, RPM said:

 

 

I wonder if that means some extra malfeasance has been found that might affect her day-to-day more than this.  Otherwise you might think it would have happened months ago.  Or maybe it's Creuzot.

Edited April 26, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[Deej 76,830]

3 minutes ago, Cajun said:

Isaac did.

Every damned day.

[woohorn 1,131]

I wonder if that means some extra malfeasance has been found that might affect her day-to-day more than this.  Otherwise you might think it would have happened months ago.  Or maybe it's Creuzot.

I figure she can't effectively testify in a timely manner, but she's a piece of shit, so who knows.

[Vic Mackey 47,082]

Someone explain why previous cases are thrown out because of future actions of an officer? Is it because their testimony and investigation is now tainted? Just wondering where they draw the line with these officer's cases and how far they go back. Believe me, I am not a fan of cops at all and so many of these drug cases are fucking waste of resources but if the case was legit and the cop did everything they should have at the time, wondering why it should be dropped because of an action in the future that had nothing to with those cases.

[NorthLoop 14,215]

2 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

Someone explain why previous cases are thrown out because of future actions of an officer? Is it because their testimony and investigation is now tainted? Just wondering where they draw the line with these officer's cases and how far they go back. Believe me, I am not a fan of cops at all and so many of these drug cases are fucking waste of resources but if the case was legit and the cop did everything they should have at the time, wondering why it should be dropped because of an action in the future that had nothing to with those cases.

Prosecutors dropped the case because they knew it'd be a waste of time with her as their main witness. 

[TwiceHorn 31,495]

21 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

Someone explain why previous cases are thrown out because of future actions of an officer? Is it because their testimony and investigation is now tainted? Just wondering where they draw the line with these officer's cases and how far they go back. Believe me, I am not a fan of cops at all and so many of these drug cases are fucking waste of resources but if the case was legit and the cop did everything they should have at the time, wondering why it should be dropped because of an action in the future that had nothing to with those cases.

If misconduct occurred remotely in time and of a different type than anything thing officer may have done in a pending case, then the defense can/should be instructed not to raise it.  Like a weird murder case occurring years after a DWI stop or a burglary bust.

I am guessing that they either found some irregularity in her past investigative work (seems like she might be kind of a dipshit, a cowboy, or both), or they decided that the publicity is too pervasive to avoid, even if not raised at trial.

[Cajun 11,714]

2 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

Someone explain why previous cases are thrown out because of future actions of an officer? Is it because their testimony and investigation is now tainted? Just wondering where they draw the line with these officer's cases and how far they go back. Believe me, I am not a fan of cops at all and so many of these drug cases are fucking waste of resources but if the case was legit and the cop did everything they should have at the time, wondering why it should be dropped because of an action in the future that had nothing to with those cases.

Because she was a psycho, which wasn’t known at the time of her collars?

i dunno, just spitballing here.

[Steel Shank 9,428]

15 hours ago, RPM said:

 

 

I'd like to see video of her coming down the hall, walking in slow motion and whipping her head around to fling her hair. I want this in slow motion.

[Guest Lobo]

Eight hours to get the victim's toxicology report.  Eight months to get the murderer's toxicology report.  

Why this lab is something of a geographic anomaly.  Close to the blacks, far from the truth.  

[Orange&White 5,528]

4 hours ago, Lobo said:

Eight hours to get the victim's toxicology report.  Eight months to get the murderer's toxicology report.  

Why this lab is something of a geographic anomaly.  Close to the blacks, far from the truth.  

I don’t remember a victims toxicology report being released.

[Guest Lobo]

My bad, it's been so long I blended the story about what they found in his apartment with his "backstory" and a bunch of other shamelessly added details that had absolutely zero bearing on why two rounds were put into his body.  The very fact that intelligent people that have followed this story closely have already forgotten that it's been 8 months of zero reports on her personal toxicology is pretty fucking telling, certainly more damming than anything you or I could write.  

The thin blue line is the strip that should be showing up on the litmus paper showing what I know is an absolutely delightful cocktail of illegally obtained prescription drugs and rum.

[irishtexan 11,521]

On 4/26/2019 at 5:36 PM, RPM said:

 

 

Line of the article, right here:

 

Quote

Records indicate one county prosecutor asked that their case be dismissed because Guyger had been accused of "murdering an innocent man in his own home," The Dallas Morning News reported.

 

[TwiceHorn 31,495]

It appears from reportage that the sole reason the cases have been dismissed is the murder indictment.

Timing seems a bit odd, since that's been pending for six months now.  Maybe it's because the first of them came up for trial or some other setting, so they just now got around to looking at them.  Or maybe it's Creuzot's willingness to let things drop.

['stache 21,819]

Defense attorney: "You have stated publicly that you work long hours to such exhaustion that you entered the wrong apartment by accident, shooting and killing an innocent man. Isn't it possible that these long hours and exhaustion also affected your judgment in evaluating the crime scene involving my client."

 

 

Amber: 

Edited April 29, 2019 by 'stache

[Cajun 11,714]

On 4/27/2019 at 9:45 AM, Lobo said:

 

Why this lab is something of a geographic anomaly.  Close to the blacks, far from the truth.  

What are you, the goddamned Pater Familius?

 

[HoustonHorn 1,062]

4 hours ago, 'stache said:

Defense attorney: "You have stated publicly that you work long hours to such exhaustion that you entered the wrong apartment by accident, shooting and killing an innocent man. Isn't it possible that these long hours and exhaustion also affected your judgment in evaluating the crime scene involving my client."

 

 

Amber: 

The police want to stay away from this at all costs. If her hours were consistent with most officers and she in any way indicates it may have hindered her judgement, that will be the basis for attorneys to try and dismiss any case by any cop who worked similar hours. Might not be successful, but it would be a shit show for them. Not that I would mind the police having to deal with a shit show of their own creation.

[Vic Mackey 47,082]

WFAA released the 911 call she made that night. 

She didn't seem very concerned with him at all and only was concerned about her job at the time. Didn't make any real attempts at all to try and help him, especially being a trained police officer. Quick to shoot and didn't even help. Didn't sound real upset. Fuck her.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/special-reports/botham-jean/uncensored-911-call-amber-guyger-after-shooting-botham-jean/287-89eb47bb-7f14-46fd-8406-141ffabb44a1

[B00M 6,419]

23 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

WFAA released the 911 call she made that night. 

She didn't seem very concerned with him at all and only was concerned about her job at the time. Didn't make any real attempts at all to try and help him, especially being a trained police officer. Quick to shoot and didn't even help. Didn't sound real upset. Fuck her.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/special-reports/botham-jean/uncensored-911-call-amber-guyger-after-shooting-botham-jean/287-89eb47bb-7f14-46fd-8406-141ffabb44a1

From what I've read and heard about this (it's been a while, perhaps i've forgotten something) it sure seemed like she murdered the dude... but that call makes it sound like she's right there with him, applying pressure, in a panic. If she was actually helping him however possible, that phone call audio may be why she's found not guilty. 

[Vic Mackey 47,082]

I didn't hear her trying to help him at all. I guess everyone hears it differently, which will make it tough for a jury to decipher this tape in the trial.

[RPM 26,322]

Nothing in that call changes anything. She killed an unarmed guy in his living room. The call just shows she knows how bad she fucked up. I'd be panicked and saying sorry, too.

[cabowabo 4,487]

The “I’m so tired” utterance at the end was calculated.  Fuck this bitch. 

[Guest Lobo]

27 minutes ago, cabowabo said:

The “I’m so tired” utterance at the end was calculated. 

I bet she was so scared, too.  She has the acting chops of a young Jesse Spanno

[LurkingHorn 1,066]

The call did make me feel a little more sympathetic to her, but that doesn't remove her culpability to me. Shooting people has consequences. Even cops need to understand that. This could have easily been avoided had she not approached the situation with a shoot-first mentality. 

[Uncle Nate 2,097]

I think this is manslaughter and not murder.  There was no intent.  There was fatigue-induced disorientation and fear. 

She took the man's life, and for that she should stand trial and face the consequences.  But I think the charge should be manslaughter.

[Gene Parmesan 4,008]

4 minutes ago, Uncle Nate said:

I think this is manslaughter and not murder.  There was no intent.  There was fatigue-induced disorientation and fear. 

She took the man's life, and for that she should stand trial and face the consequences.  But I think the charge should be manslaughter.

What do you mean there was no intent?  The gun didn't accidently discharge as she was pointing it at him.  She pulled the trigger with the intent to shoot the victim.  She was just mistaken that she was justified to do so. 

[Uncle Nate 2,097]

11 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

What do you mean there was no intent?  The gun didn't accidently discharge as she was pointing it at him.  She pulled the trigger with the intent to shoot the victim.  She was just mistaken that she was justified to do so. 

What I mean is she didn't walk into that apartment expecting to find anyone, much less shoot them. She honestly thought she was in her apartment and there was an intruder. She was dazed and confused.  That's why I think the charge should be manslaughter and not murder.

Let's be clear that I still think she was wrong and she should face justice.  I'm not saying she gets a pass...not at all.  But I think the charge should be appropriate for what took place.  In the end, whether it is murder or manslaughter, her life is forever fucked anyway.  Prison is prison, and an ex-cop in prison for killing an innocent black man is going to get the same treatment regardless of which charge she is convicted of.

And just so we are on the same page and you understand what I'm talking about:

Quote

• Second-degree murder: any intentional murder with malice aforethought, but is not premeditated or planned in advance. ^[73]
• Voluntary manslaughter: sometimes called a crime of passion murder, is any intentional killing that involves no prior intent to kill, and which was committed under such circumstances that would "cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed". Both this and second-degree murder are committed on the spot under a spur-of-the-moment choice, but the two differ in the magnitude of the circumstances surrounding the crime. For example, a bar fight that results in death would ordinarily constitute second-degree murder. If that same bar fight stemmed from a discovery of infidelity, however, it may be mitigated to voluntary manslaughter.^[74]

Now read those two definitions and tell me which one her crime falls under?  I say the second.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Uncle Nate

[4th and 5 4,914]

With Use of deadly force for self defense on today’s syllabus entry, I think we will start class today with the 911 call. 

And all the lights off. 

[Uncle Nate 2,097]

3 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Average Joe breaks into someone's house through an unlocked door and shoots the home owner we are giving average Joe benefit of the doubt and calling it manslaughter because he was tired and maybe drunk.

If this was a man who wasn't a police officer would you be making the same argument?

I don't believe you would.

This fits under second in every definition of the word.

I just don't think it fits the "...with malice aforethought" piece to the 2nd degree murder.  I do think it fits the voluntary manslaughter.  By definition, it still slaps her with the intent.  She's still guilty of willfully taking the man's life.  

And like I said, once she gets to prison, and she will, it won't matter a hill of beans if it was 2nd degree murder vs. voluntary manslaughter.  The prison population is going to make her suffer equally the same.

[4th and 5 4,914]

Hey man we plowed this ground months ago, go look at the culpable mental states in chapter 6 of the Texas Penal Code. And then read chapter 19. It’s a murder case. 

[Vic Mackey 47,082]

Hey man we plowed this ground months ago, go look at the culpable mental states in chapter 6 of the Texas Penal Code. And then read chapter 19. It’s a murder case. 

Absolutely. Anyone trying to justify what she did is delusional. And this 911 call made it even worse for me.

[Uncle Nate 2,097]

Again, just to be clear, me advocating for manslaughter over murder should not be interpreted as me trying to justify what she did.  Not at all.