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Dallas officer kills man after mistaking apartment for her own, police say

'stache

By 'stache
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Constant
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First off I’d like to say that I’m heartbroken for the Jean family. As a parent myself, I hope Mr. Jean’s father and mother find some peace in the outcome. They appear to be a wonderful family that ra

SubliminalHorn
SubliminalHorn

Just relax the throat and stay in rhythm 

4th&Five
4th&Five

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TXSooner518

TXSooner518 2,438

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On 9/25/2019 at 11:30 AM, 4th and 5 said:

If the firing of the pistol is an intentional or knowing act, and there is no evidence that she did not intend to fire the pistol, then there can be no charge for criminally negligent homicide or manslaughter.

There has to be some evidence, even if weak,, contradicted,  not credible, to support submitting the charge to the jury That the act was not intentional or knowing

In this case she shot at him twice hitting him once in the chest, clearly an intentional act unless she’s going to testify that she just had her finger on the trigger and she did not intend to pull the trigger......TWICE

 

On 9/25/2019 at 11:36 AM, TXSooner518 said:

I guess I'm still missing it. You're saying the CCA is affirming murder convictions by saying no evidence that the shooting is unintentional. Sure! Any case law of CCA overruling a manslaughter conviction by saying "nope it was intentional, not reckless"? 

Under Texas law, proof of intent = proof of reckless. The elements of manslaughter are prima facie met under the Penal Code. So unless there is case law of a manslaughter or CNH conviction overturned because the act was intentional not reckless, I'm still missing it.

EDIT: I'm not saying failing to give lesser included would invalidate a murder conviction, but I also don't see how a manslaughter conviction could be overturned as a matter of law. 

 

On 9/25/2019 at 12:37 PM, 4th and 5 said:

Proof of the greater Culpable mental state is proof of the letter. But that doesn’t mean you get a jury charge when there is no evidence to support the chart. There has to be some evidence.

Then in response to me asking about what would happen if she was only charged with manslaughter, and that surely it wouldn't be directed verdict of acquittal:

On 9/25/2019 at 2:09 PM, 4th and 5 said:

It would be a not guilty, because the specific reckless or negligent act need be ALLEGED in the indictment and PROVEN IN COURT, if not, not guilty. There is no negligent or reckless act in intentionally discharging a firearm.

So I don't think I misrepresented your position, which was that there would be no lesser included charge and that she can't be convicted of manslaughter.

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gsoda3

gsoda3 3,260

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in closing arguments can you use props?  for example can they have a posterboard highlighting the standards need to be met for reasonable doubt/not guilty/self defense?  all these legal terms coming hot and heavy, it'd be handy for the jurors to have a cheat sheet to reference other than their own notes.

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4th and 5

4th and 5 4,914

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@TXSooner518You said I said a DV of NG, which I assume means directed verdict of not guilty.

I did not say that.

I said there is no evidence to get the lessers in this murder trial. I have also pointed out that if there is any evidence whatsover (a "scintilla"), the judge will put it in the charge because it is reversible error not to.

I also said that if she were charged with manslaughter or CNH, a specific negligent or reckless act would have to be alleged in the indictment and proven in court. Without one, it is a NG

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4th and 5

4th and 5 4,914

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To get an idea why the Man charge is there, the law is such that it is reversible error, no harm analysis on appeal. In one case I tried and gotten SIX Ch. 8 and 9 defenses charged (over the state's objection, they're not very smart) in because the judge feared trying the case again. I was hoping the judge to deny one or two just so I had a point on appeal. No appeal needed.

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TXSooner518

TXSooner518 2,438

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BTW, the law on "mistake of fact" seems absolutely horrendous. How can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the person didn't make a mistake of fact? 

Would seem to make more sense to have a sliding burden of proof, like on a Batson challenge. The defense establishes the mistake of fact, then the state can show it wasn't reasonable. And maybe in practice, that's how it really works. 

Edited by TXSooner518
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TXSooner518

TXSooner518 2,438

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Defense seems to be mis-stating the law here. They said if the state doesn't prove either that Amber's mistaken belief that she was in her apartment or that Botham was an intruder in her apartment were unreasonable beyond a reasonable doubt, she must be acquitted. That's not true. Even if she was in her apartment and Jean was an intruder, jury would ALSO have to find that she believed that he was imminently committing one of the above listed offenses. No evidence was entered on that part.

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TXSooner518

TXSooner518 2,438

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Just now, Continental Op said:

So we don't know where he was sitting but we know exactly how this guy eats ice cream? 

Also, LOL at maybe the marijuana made it tough for Bo to figure out what was going on. Yep, if only he was clear-minded, this surely would have been avoided.

Also, they specifically said she DIDN'T follow protocol because it wasn't a call, and now say she has done everything just as she was taught.

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TXSooner518

TXSooner518 2,438

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1 minute ago, hookem17 said:

Why is Rogers repeating the same stuff as the other defense attorney? 

 

Just now, 4th and 5 said:

my thought exactly

my non-attorney wife just texted me asking the same thing, why are they having two people say the same things, so it isn't just lawdogs feeling that way either

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Continental Op

Continental Op 3,934

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2 minutes ago, TXSooner518 said:

Also, LOL at maybe the marijuana made it tough for Bo to figure out what was going on. Yep, if only he was clear-minded, this surely would have been avoided.

Also, they specifically said she DIDN'T follow protocol because it wasn't a call, and now say she has done everything just as she was taught.

If the filthy negro man had not been smoking the demon weed he would have been able to Matrix bullet time his way out of this situation and we wouldn't be sitting here trying this hero today!  

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msudawg

msudawg 371

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, woohorn said:
8 minutes ago, msudawg said:
 
??? has something been stated would happen at six flags over texas???

No, Arlington is safe. Why do you ask?

Because of what I quoted unless SFOT means something else in this instance... Fright fest is going on and people are always looking for a reason to get stupid there... 

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msudawg

msudawg 371

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1 minute ago, woohorn said:

Point was "Dallas" is pretty segregated. No "protests" gonna happen in Uptown, Lakewood, Bluffview, etc. All bets are off for Fair Park, tho.

I agree. But what is the level of punishment that sets off an uproar. Anything less than murder? or just if she get's off completely, which seems less likely now that manslaughter has been given as an option. 

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TXSooner518

TXSooner518 2,438

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2 minutes ago, msudawg said:

I agree. But what is the level of punishment that sets off an uproar. Anything less than murder? or just if she get's off completely, which seems less likely now that manslaughter has been given as an option. 

I don't think manslaughter conviction sets off uproar, only acquittal.

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woohorn

woohorn 1,131

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Not to derail too much, but I figure Dallas is a little more sympathetic towards cops than some other cities. Bad shooting a while back, black CoP, understaffed, pension crisis, etc. I know that the DPS presence has hurt relations, but I don't see this case as all cops are bad as much as some other shootings.

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