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Dallas officer kills man after mistaking apartment for her own, police say

'stache

By 'stache
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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31534

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Deej said:

His family can thank whoever the fuck they want to thank. Whatever helps them through losing a family member.

Sure thing pal.  I didn't say they couldn't.

I reserve the right to be queasy over it.  Just like I'm a little queasy over thanking God for winning a football game.  God aint got nothin to do with this.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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First off I’d like to say that I’m heartbroken for the Jean family. As a parent myself, I hope Mr. Jean’s father and mother find some peace in the outcome. They appear to be a wonderful family that ra

SubliminalHorn
SubliminalHorn

Just relax the throat and stay in rhythm 

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Deej

Deej 76905

Posted
Posted (edited)

So, what does he have to do with? If that's their belief system, so be it. Really not about your feelings.

I am as far from believing in God as anyone here, but if they want to give thanks to him for not letting that bitch get away with murdering their son, I'm ok with it.

Edited by Deej
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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105319

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19 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

It's called being prejudiced. That's all it is. I guess you can justify it, no skin off my nose. Your contempt for folks is your burden.

Yeah, damned straight it's being prejudiced.  I have no idea WHERE I would have gotten that idea (cough, cough, decades upon decades of cops getting away with shooting whoever they want, ESPECIALLY minorities)....(cough, cough, see the posts above recounting the local reaction to the verdict on WBAP)....yeah, where oh WHERE would I get the idea that a crapload of my fellow Texans hold the life of a minority to be so valueless as to literally let someone get away with murder?

Gosh, it's a real mystery.

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Continental Op

Continental Op 3934

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3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

As for what my gut told me a jury would do with the pot-smoking black guy who got shot by a cop....forgive me if I don't think too highly of the fine white folk of North Texas.  Pay no mind to the fact that one of 'em just went through the effort to drive all the way to El Paso to murder some brown people.

Cool.   I guess if I can lay 20 something dead bodies at the feet of immigrants you'll be in the Cloak Room shrieking MAGA BUILD THE WALL!  

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formermav43

formermav43 4606

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27 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Did the family really thank God?

That makes me a little queasy.  

Incidentally, although Botham Jean seemed to be a fine example of a Christian, his school, Harding University, is what this place would consider an asshole factory on the level of Baylor or Liberty.  I consider it something of an asshole factory myself, and I'm a leading Apologist on this site.

Hmmm...I’m not sure what Harding has done on the order of Baylor or Liberty, or what “assholes” it has produced. 

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Trey3216

Trey3216 15355

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13 minutes ago, Junior Miller said:

I'm not saying a LEO can't carry a concealed gun on their own time. Just that they can't carry their police issued firearm while off duty. If they want to carry a concealed weapon then they need to take all the same steps a normal non felon citizen takes to do so. Get the same permit. 

While on duty you only carry approved and issued police gear and only wear approved and issued uniforms / clothing. While off-duty you're not allowed to wear any issued uniform or firearm. Part of reforming this problem is to make clear to these people that they are not cops. They're regular citizens who are hired to be cops only while on duty. It's only a job and not who they are. 

I don’t think you understand.  Most firearms that LEO’s carry aren’t police issued.  They are personally purchased firearms, approved by the department.  It’s one of the only ways they actually save money 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105319

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Just now, Continental Op said:

Cool.   I guess if I can lay 20 something dead bodies at the feet of immigrants you'll be in the Cloak Room shrieking MAGA BUILD THE WALL!  

No.  I'll be saying "prosecute everyone who murders somebody."  Which, you know, is like, my whole point here.

I don't want to ban cops - I want murdering cops to face fair prosecution.

I don't want to ban immigrants -- I want murdering immigrants to face fair prosecution.

I don't want to ban racist white people - I want murdering racist white people to face fair prosecution.

See where I'm going with this?

And....if you somehow think that cops haven't had an incredible amount of carte blanche over our history when it comes to killing a minority....there's not much point in continuing this conversation.

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Junior Miller

Junior Miller 1502

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

I don’t think you understand.  Most firearms that LEO’s carry aren’t police issued.  They are personally purchased firearms, approved by the department.  It’s one of the only ways they actually save money.

I know that. I'm saying as part of the reform that needs to be done away with. Everything needs to be regulated and controlled because the power these people wield while wearing that uniform and carrying that gun is so ridiculously high. 

Edited by Junior Miller
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formermav43

formermav43 4606

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3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

It's low profile, but it's quite fundamentalist evangelical.

I’m familiar with Harding. I’m less clear that YOU are given that you’re lumping it in with schools that have countenanced some pretty heinous crimes.

And, incidentally, calling a school associated with churches of Christ “fundamentalist evangelical” is problematic for both theological and historical reasons. 

Edited by formermav43
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Trey3216

Trey3216 15355

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1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

No.  I'll be saying "prosecute everyone who murders somebody."  Which, you know, is like, my whole point here.

I don't want to ban cops - I want murdering cops to face fair prosecution.

I don't want to ban immigrants -- I want murdering immigrants to face fair prosecution.

I don't want to ban racist white people - I want murdering racist white people to face fair prosecution.

See where I'm going with this?

And....if you somehow think that cops haven't had an incredible amount of carte blanche over our history when it comes to killing a minority....there's not much point in continuing this conversation.

I think we all believe in that, and that 98% of people agree with that.  

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Continental Op

Continental Op 3934

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

No.  I'll be saying "prosecute everyone who murders somebody."  Which, you know, is like, my whole point here.

I don't want to ban cops - I want murdering cops to face fair prosecution.

I don't want to ban immigrants -- I want murdering immigrants to face fair prosecution.

I don't want to ban racist white people - I want murdering racist white people to face fair prosecution.

See where I'm going with this?

And....if you somehow think that cops haven't had an incredible amount of carte blanche over our history when it comes to killing a minority....there's not much point in continuing this conversation.

Well yeah.  I think pretty much everybody would agree with that.  You went further and used one fucking nut job to make the point of "I DON'T TRUST WHITEY IN NORTH TEXAS."  

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TwiceHorn

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4 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

I’m familiar with Harding. I’m less clear that YOU are given that you’re lumping it in with schools that have countenanced some pretty heinous crimes.

And, incidentally, calling a school associated with churches of Christ “fundamentalist evangelical” is problematic for both theological and historical reasons. 

We are more or less on the same side, here.  While it hasn't committed rape atrocities like Baylor, Baylor was considered pretty much an asshole factory before that by the Christian haters on this site.  Harding falls well within what normally gets shat upon here, regardless of the true applicability of terms like "fundamentalist" and "evangelical."

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105319

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1 minute ago, Continental Op said:

You went further and used one fucking nut job to make the point of "I DON'T TRUST WHITEY IN NORTH TEXAS."  

Based on the history of Texas, and I'm including even recent history.....in a trial of a white cop charged with shooting a black man.....is it reasonable to presume that the white cop is going to be treated more favorably by a Texas jury than a typical murder defendant?  Come on, man....we're not exactly going out on a limb here.

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formermav43

formermav43 4606

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1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

We are more or less on the same side, here.  While it hasn't committed rape atrocities like Baylor, Baylor was considered pretty much an asshole factory before that by the Christian haters on this site.  Harding falls well within what normally gets shat upon here.

I’ll buy that explanation.

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Trey3216

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2 minutes ago, Junior Miller said:

I know that. I'm saying as part of the reform that needs to be done away with. Everything needs to be regulated and controlled because the power these people wield while wearing that uniform and carrying that gun is so ridiculously high. 

Everything?   Ok.  Everything is already regulated.  And controlled.  And it’s becoming evident that they can’t do whatever they want anymore. But good luck trying to tell someone that a firearm they purchased, which is used for their occupation, isn’t allowed to come home with them when the other citizens of their state are also allowed to carry their firearm with them, legally.  And legally licensed handgun owners aren’t committing crimes like this because they’re more concerned for their availability of carrying than their necessity of using them.   

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31534

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3 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

I’ll buy that explanation.

While even this place doesn't usually exhibit that kind of bad taste, I was kind of wondering if it would ever come up.

And I thought it interesting that some on this thread were complimenting Jean's character, when he comes from a fairly "hardshell" Christian tradition.  Always seems like black churches from a denomination get something of a pass from the religion haters, and it's also true that black churches often seem to defuse the parts of their denomination's message that many find offensive.

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Junior Miller

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9 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

Everything?   Ok.  Everything is already regulated.  And controlled.  And it’s becoming evident that they can’t do whatever they want anymore. But good luck trying to tell someone that a firearm they purchased, which is used for their occupation, isn’t allowed to come home with them when the other citizens of their state are also allowed to carry their firearm with them, legally.  And legally licensed handgun owners aren’t committing crimes like this because they’re more concerned for their availability of carrying than their necessity of using them.   

I didn't say any of that. I said any firearm they use for their occupation shouldn't be allowed to be one they purchased. It should be state/federal issue only. Any gun they purchase can only be used/carried by them off duty if they get the same required permits and pass the same classes as everyone else.

It's no different in my company. I dont allow my employees to use their own PCs for work on my servers. They are only allowed to use computers I issue and closely monitor and regulate because the risk of contamination is too high and consequences too damaging. I don't know why you are having a hard time understanding this. 

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HOOKEM4

HOOKEM4 5041

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1 hour ago, Vic Mackey said:

Walking into someone else's home while they are minding their own business and pulling out your gun and intending to kill them (admitting to it, too) seems pretty heinous to me. Fuck that murdering, trigger happy piece of shit.

This has been eating at me. The idea her defense council and honestly herself didnt pick up on the framing of that question and answer. "Did you intend to kill?" No sir, I was stopping the threat. It probably would not have mattered anyways but I was told by the LEO that taught my chl class that you never admit to intent to kill. You adamantly state you wanted to stop the threat. The connotation is naturally less aggressive than kill and allows for interpretation that maybe they would live. I could not believe she answered the way she did. Poor prep or just dumbasses. Doesnt matter the jury got this right.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31534

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1 minute ago, HOOKEM4 said:

This has been eating at me. The idea her defense council and honestly herself didnt pick up on the framing of that question and answer. "Did you intend to kill?" No sir, I was stopping the threat. It probably would not have mattered anyways but I was told by the LEO that taught my chl class that you never admit to intent to kill. You adamantly state you wanted to stop the threat. The connotation is naturally less aggressive than kill and allows for interpretation that maybe they would live. I could not believe she answered the way she did. Poor prep or just dumbasses. Doesnt matter the jury got this right.

I'm fairly sure that the defense decided long ago that trying to wordsmith around the fact that she shot to kill or do serious bodily harm (the requisite intent) would not have gone over well with the jury.

The defense always was the reasonableness of her actions leading up to the intentional act.

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Trey3216

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11 minutes ago, Junior Miller said:

I didn't say any of that. I said any firearm they use for their occupation shouldn't be allowed to be one they purchased. It should be state/federal issue only. Any gun they purchase can only be used/carried by them off duty if they get the same required permits and pass the same classes as everyone else.

It's no different in my company. I dont allow my employees to use their own PCs for work on my servers. They are only allowed to use computers I issue and closely monitor and regulate because the risk of contamination is too high and consequences too damaging. I don't know why you are having a hard time understanding this. 

Gotcha.   Thing is, it’s a way departments save money.  All the firearms have to be approved.  It’s not like they’re carrying around Tec-9’s.  These would be standard issue weapons, but they are purchased by the LEO rather than the department.  Was just clarifying.  

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HOOKEM4

HOOKEM4 5041

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Posted (edited)

There is no way any cop should use the terms she used. Every cop should be trying to end a threat. Obviously we all know that means kill, I am just confounded they would have that admission so plain in open court.

Edited by HOOKEM4
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Pato del Muerto

Pato del Muerto 52589

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Posted
2 hours ago, Skipper said:

I don't even know what WBAP is.  Sounds like that's a good thing.

Very old and strong am radio station out of Dallas. So old it’s before the W/K designations so it’s one of the few western stations with a W. On a nice night, that signal can reach a long way.  Some of you guys should dial in 820 and see if you can get it. 

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Pato del Muerto

Pato del Muerto 52589

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And I started the uniform business, because it was my understanding that there is this gray area of cops that are off duty but in uniform. 

She was off duty but has all the protections of an on duty officer because she was in uniform. So I suggested the gray area be removed. 

I understand about the firearm, but I’d prefer there be a distinction between a work firearm and a personal one, and work should only be discharged on duty. I’ll allow that this may not make a difference. 

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Trey3216

Trey3216 15355

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Just now, Pato del Muerto said:

And I started the uniform business, because it was my understanding that there is this gray area of cops that are off duty but in uniform. 

She was off duty but has all the protections of an on duty officer because she was in uniform. So I suggested the gray area be removed. 

I understand about the firearm, but I’d prefer there be a distinction between a work firearm and a personal one, and work should only be discharged on duty. I’ll allow that this may not make a difference. 

But being in uniform, she also had all the responsibilities of one in uniform, and her verdict reflects that 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31534

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5 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

But being in uniform, she also had all the responsibilities of one in uniform, and her verdict reflects that 

That raises an interesting point.  I don't know if we ever figured out whether the jury was instructed to judge her actions as a reasonable ordinary person, or a reasonable person with 3500 hours of law enforcement training.

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Trey3216

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5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

That raises an interesting point.  I don't know if we ever figured out whether the jury was instructed to judge her actions as a reasonable ordinary person, or a reasonable person with 3500 hours of law enforcement training.

I think @Brisketexan talked about that 12-14 pages or so ago if I’m not mistaken, but I’m likely mistaken.   I know it was discussed with case study 

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Skipper

Skipper 6197

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

That raises an interesting point.  I don't know if we ever figured out whether the jury was instructed to judge her actions as a reasonable ordinary person, or a reasonable person with 3500 hours of law enforcement training.

I don't know how the jury was instructed but I know the prosecution hammered the point in closing.

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Trey3216

Trey3216 15355

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10 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Her lawyers argued against it though didn’t they?  We’re there jury instructions regarding this point?

 

8 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I don't know how the jury was instructed but I know the prosecution hammered the point in closing.

It was absolutely hammered by the prosecution, and I believe the case precedent was presented well earlier in the thread.  

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