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Dallas officer kills man after mistaking apartment for her own, police say

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First off I’d like to say that I’m heartbroken for the Jean family. As a parent myself, I hope Mr. Jean’s father and mother find some peace in the outcome. They appear to be a wonderful family that ra

SubliminalHorn
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Just relax the throat and stay in rhythm 

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irishtexan

irishtexan 11519

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I don't want her to be given a longer sentence. I want for sentencing to be more equitable so that black dudes aren't doing more time for possession of weed than Amber Guyger is going to do for murder.  I want more humanity in criminal proceedings like what happened when the judge hugged the defendant. But I find it curious that these  expressions of compassion seem to only be extended to poor little blonde white girls and not black dudes that kill other people. 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105140

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22 minutes ago, JimmyHoffa said:

giphy-downsized-large.gif

 

20 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Brisket got to eat a healthy ration of shit yesterday after the conviction.

I did, and it's plenty fair.  I made the call at the time based on history and known evidence....damned glad to be wrong.  Not the first time for me, won't be the last (I mean, I'm SURE all of y'all just KNEW Texas was gonna beat the Huskers in the first Big 12 championship, right?)

19 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Although it's a lot to ask of someone in his position, that is a truly Christian reaction.

 

18 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Christianity needed this. 

Good example. Very Christ-like.

Very much agreed.  Our social trend is so much towards separation, and villification.  Seeing an outward example of kindness, forgiveness, and acknowledgment that we all live in community with each other -- including with the people who have wronged us -- is really big.

It reminds me of the aftermath of the Amish school shooting back in 2006.  https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14900930

The Amish family members of actual shooting victims not only forgave the shooter, but some of them even attended his funeral.  They offered love and assistance to his widow and his family.  They walked the fucking walk.  It was one of the most powerful displays of Christ-like behavior I've ever seen, and it sticks with me to this day.

A lot of us are angry at law enforcement.  And we have every right to be.  But what do we really WANT?  We want them to do their jobs.  We want them to do it with kindness and human decency, with awareness and respect for the gravity of their power, and the decisions they may be called upon to make.  We actually DO want them to "make it home safely."  And we want them to deliberately balance the life and safety of others when they make life-changing decisions.  We want them to be like Deputy Dahliwal...and we want him and the rest of them to go home to their family at the end of their shift.  I don't hate cops.  I hate what they've allowed themselves to become, and I hate that so many of them resist reform.  

Do we want Amber Guyger to suffer now?  Maybe.   Maybe somewhat.  Because it does send a powerful cautionary message.  But what would we RATHER have had happen? 

I think most of us would prefer to have seen her grow up to be a decent woman with compassion, not fear masked with callous bravado.  We'd rather have seen her be capable of doing her job in a cool and professional manner.  That way, even if she did goof in showing up at the wrong apartment, upon hearing movement inside, she would have backed up, and assessed the situation....looked at the doormat....looked at the apartment number....and realized it wasn't her own apartment.  Maybe she even would have been a good neighbor, knocking on the door to tell her downstairs neighbor that "man, I am really tired, and found myself in front of the wrong door, but I saw that it was ajar, so I wanted to tell you so you could close it and be safe.  Have a nice evening."

I'm sick of people being so fragile and hostile that they resort to violence and hurting others.  I'm sick of people being hurt and killed because violence is such a common reaction among people we should be able to trust.  I'm sick of society HAVING to call for justice, and strong sentences to serve as a warning.  I'm sick of losing good people like Botham Jean.  I'm sick of people like Amber Guyger never developing into a good person, for whatever reasons may have led her down the wrong path.  I'd like a society where Botham got to enjoy his ice cream and go to bed, and a good cop named Amber got to have a laugh about how tired she was, and get a good night's sleep.

We can and should exact our punishment.  But we must also figure out a way to heal who we are.  Because who we are right now hurts a shitload of people, for no damned good reason at all.

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TwiceHorn

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Just now, irishtexan said:

I don't want her to be given a longer sentence. I want for sentencing to be more equitable so that black dudes aren't doing more time for possession of weed than Amber Guyger is going to do for murder.  I want more humanity in criminal proceedings like what happened when the judge hugged the defendant. But I find it curious that these  expressions of compassion seem to only be extended to poor little blonde white girls and not black dudes that kill other people. 

I'll be the first to tell you no one is doing 10 years for possession of weed.  Possession of 100 lbs of weed, that they are planning to sell along with a couple kilos each of coke, heroin, and meth, yeah.

The drug defendants in jail are serious criminals most of the time.

We still put em away too long.

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SquishMitten

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Thought about this for a bit since the sentence was announced. At first, I was pissed because it’s too light. I’m struggling with it because what I really think is “it’s too light comparable to other sentences.” After stewing on it, I feel it’s a fair sentence for what our system SHOULD be. 10 years is somewhat of a balance between the theories of punishment vs rehabilitation, and it allows a person to return to society before they lose all possibility to have a purpose. Her time in the joint won’t be easy. She may not survive it. But if she comes out the other side, I think she’ll have the ability to be a positive impact on some lives and make Bo’s loss mean something

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TwiceHorn

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1 minute ago, SquishMitten said:

Thought about this for a bit since the sentence was announced. At first, I was pissed because it’s too light. I’m struggling with it because what I really think is “it’s too light comparable to other sentences.” After stewing on it, I feel it’s a fair sentence for what our system SHOULD be. 10 years is somewhat of a balance between the theories of punishment vs rehabilitation, and it allows a person to return to society before they lose all possibility to have a purpose. Her time in the joint won’t be easy. She may not survive it. But if she comes out the other side, I think she’ll have the ability to be a positive impact on some lives and make Bo’s loss mean something

Right.  If this is a "watershed" victory reflecting fairness in treatment of cop shooters versus civilian shooters, we can't taint the victory by giving an unfair sentence just because the rest of the system is unfair.

Make this two victories.  Fairness in cops' treatment of civilians, particularly those of color, and at least a semblance of rationality in the sentence instead of a fit of judicial pique.

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TwiceHorn

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For the record, knowing that Botham Jean and his family were professing Christians, I was somewhat surprised and shocked at reports that family members "thanked God" after the conviction.

My expression of that pissed a few people off.

While you can hope in one hand and shit in the other waiting for self-identified Christians to do the Christian thing, and being Christian in these circumstances is super difficult, it's amazing to see that on display.

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Zepol87

Zepol87 9186

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I wish our criminal justice system had more of this going on. 
Don't discard people. Amber made a terrible mistake. Forgiveness is a powerful thing.

Now lets do it with the minorities locked up longer than 10 years for bullshit ass drugs. White female cop getting this kind of treatment is bullshit
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Iceman

Iceman 2713

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"she made a mistake"

 

No making a mistake is putting diesel in your vehicle instead of gas.  Maybe you put salt in your coffee instead of sugar...

 

Dropping two rounds in someone with finality, considering the circumstances and her alleged training; was a measured decision.

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hookem17

hookem17 485

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People clearly have a wide range of opinions about the appropriate length for Guyger’s sentence.  Part of the problem is that we all have different views on why we put people in prison. Some think we should lock up criminals for long enough to deter others from committing similar crimes. Others believe prison time is necessary due to the severity of the crime or moral wrongdoing.  Your belief as to what function incarceration serves will shape how you view the appropriateness of 10 years. 

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BurdineBandit

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19 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

For the record, knowing that Botham Jean and his family were professing Christians, I was somewhat surprised and shocked at reports that family members "thanked God" after the conviction.

My expression of that pissed a few people off.

While you can hope in one hand and shit in the other waiting for self-identified Christians to do the Christian thing, and being Christian in these circumstances is super difficult, it's amazing to see that on display.

Not sure I completely get what you mean by this, but seems similar to my thought. The brother got to sleep knowing his brother's killer would be held accountable. I wonder if he would have felt the same way if she'd walked or if he'd just chalk it up to God's will. 

Just a thought. I think that young man deserves to live his life in peace, however he finds it. As did his brother.

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msudawg

msudawg 371

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36 minutes ago, Zepol87 said:


Now lets do it with the minorities locked up longer than 10 years for bullshit ass drugs. White female cop getting this kind of treatment is bullshit

Good luck... you just crossed from the courts to politics especially with weed and mandatory minimums. 

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Deej

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13 minutes ago, BurdineBandit said:

Not sure I completely get what you mean by this, but seems similar to my thought. The brother got to sleep knowing his brother's killer would be held accountable. I wonder if he would have felt the same way if she'd walked or if he'd just chalk it up to God's will. 

Just a thought. I think that young man deserves to live his life in peace, however he finds it. As did his brother.

Judging by his actions today, seems like he might just accept it as God's will. Might have been disappointed,  but he, and the rest of the family, seem like they would accept whatever plan God has for them. 

Whatever it is, they seem capable of much more forgiveness than myself and most of us here, and they should be commended for that, instead of being called out for what they might have done if things turned out differently. 

 

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rantanamo

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1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

 

10 years is nothing to sneeze at.  It's plenty.  Most sentences are too damned long anyway.

If the Balch Springs guy got 15, 10 is appropriate here.

Ten years ain't shit unless you think 15 years was enough for shooting into a car full of teenagers driving away.  

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105140

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11 minutes ago, bigup2dahorns said:

DPD chief says internal affairs investigation to begin now that the trial is over to correct issues raised during the trial.

SexCop is still employed by DPD

This is important.  Transparency.  Trust.  Genuine apologies to the public.  All of those things are necessary.  Botham Jean's family offered Amber (and perhaps implicitly, DPD) forgiveness.  Now it's their turn to earn what they've already been given.

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Slade

Slade 263

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Couldn't be me forgiving the person that killed my brother. Hats off to that young man but it couldn't have been me that soon after the trial, that process would have taken years. 

All of this forgiving is not going to fix the systemic issue when it comes to black bodies in this criminal justice system. The cop that killed LaQuon McDonald only got 7 years. 
 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105140

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20 minutes ago, Slade said:

 

All of this forgiving is not going to fix the systemic issue when it comes to black bodies in this criminal justice system. The cop that killed LaQuon McDonald only got 7 years. 
 

You're right.  It's not.  But peace can only come when one extends his hand to another.  This is how it builds.  Now, the justice system, and law enforcement, need to reach back out and earn that forgiveness that they've already been given.  Amber Guyger needs to grasp what she did, how she was wrong -- not just mistaken, but wrong -- and offer real apology.

And DPD needs to fully and fairly investigate the breakdowns in the system.  How did DPD produce an officer who failed so miserably?  And DPD needs to highlight every misstep and bit of unfairness and preferential treatment during the response and investigation, and there must be consequences for that.

Do I think they'll achieve that?  Probably not.  But if I can at least see an honest effort, and real progress....that's what we build on.

It takes an unbelievable amount of courage to forgive.  Courage that I don't know if I have.  But I'm glad the Jean family has it.  Because courage like that wins fights, and what they're fighting for is so very important.

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Brisketexan

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4 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I don’t know what to think of her. Clearly she murdered the guy and a jury made their assessment and I’m good with it. I don’t know if she’s racist or an immature dipshit, and don’t care. Her contrition and wailing when he hugged her was genuine and sad. 

While there are surely many examples that test the proposition, we have to believe that nobody is beyond redemption.  Redemption is a choice, but it's one that I hope she's beginning to make.  

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Deej

Deej 76791

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11 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I don’t know what to think of her. Clearly she murdered the guy and a jury made their assessment and I’m good with it. I don’t know if she’s racist or an immature dipshit, and don’t care. Her contrition and wailing when he hugged her was genuine and sad. 

Like a lot of cops, I think she got pulled into this sense of "I'm the law, I'm empowered to do whatever I think is necessary." It's a failure of how they are trained.

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Mojo Hand

Mojo Hand 4580

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I agree with the sentiment that the real sentencing problem is that other sentences are too high, and that this sentence would be reasonable in a vacuum.  But it's not random chance that we're getting this result with a white female cop who killed an unarmed black man.  It's just more evidence of the systematic problem because it shows that things could be done better, but just aren't in cases where the defendant isn't a white woman.

Hopefully BLM and others keep up the pressure system-wide, because ten years for murder is absurd relative to many other sentences we've all seen. 

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Deej

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3 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

That one demonstration of forgiveness will go further to change any ingrained thoughts of hate more than 100 years in prison would.

I would like to think so, but how many LEO's outside of Dallas were really paying attention?

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Zepol87

Zepol87 9186

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I agree with the sentiment that the real sentencing problem is that other sentences are too high, and that this sentence would be reasonable in a vacuum.  But it's not random chance that we're getting this result with a white female cop who killed an unarmed black man.  It's just more evidence of the systematic problem because it shows that things could be done better, but just aren't in cases where the defendant isn't a white woman.
Hopefully BLM and others keep up the pressure system-wide, because ten years for murder is absurd relative to many other sentences we've all seen. 

That's my problem with it. I believe honestly that if she hadn't killed a model citizen and very bright and great young man she wouldn't have gotten shit. If she killed some dude in the hood with a prior and a damn traffic warrant or some shit she would have walked.

That is the real issue, this won't change shit when it comes to how police believe they are targets and need to be ready for war. 10 years for murdering a dude in his home is nothing
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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21469

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13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

While there are surely many examples that test the proposition, we have to believe that nobody is beyond redemption.  Redemption is a choice, but it's one that I hope she's beginning to make.  

There are people who are beyond redemption.  She’s not one of them, but they exist.

3 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

I’ve served as a juror once in a criminal case.  It took us less than 5 minutes to make a unanimous decision on sentencing (life, which was the max).  It was such a terrifying and disgusting case with evidence that left no doubt whatsoever as to guilt, no one really considered anything else.  I would imagine there was a pretty big spread on what each juror thought was right on this one.

This particular piece of shit did some things to a six-year old that still pop up into my mind 10+ years later, and when it does, I generally don’t sleep well for a few days.  It was his third rodeo down this particular road of abuse (putting it lightly) and while I have lost some sleep over this case, it wasn’t because we gave this guy a life sentence. 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31471

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2 hours ago, BurdineBandit said:

Not sure I completely get what you mean by this, but seems similar to my thought. The brother got to sleep knowing his brother's killer would be held accountable. I wonder if he would have felt the same way if she'd walked or if he'd just chalk it up to God's will. 

Just a thought. I think that young man deserves to live his life in peace, however he finds it. As did his brother.

What I meant is, there was plenty of opportunity for decidedly un-Christian behavior here.  Thanking God for a guilty verdict might well fall into that category, as understandable as it might be.

What Brandt Jean did was the best kind of Christian behavior under the worst kind of circumstances, which is when it's most important.

We have lots of examples of self-identified Christians behaving in un-Christian ways.  Nice to have a counterexample.

And, actually, if you follow criminal cases, you see that kind of Christian example from victims with some frequency.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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