Dallas officer kills man after mistaking apartment for her own, police say

[Gene Parmesan 4014]

8 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

Maybe I'm just an idiot but I don't think an off duty cop, in uniform, should automatically be able to be an asshole and go randomly shooting people.   I think she should be held to a HIGHER standard.

You aren't an idiot but most of the population is.

[High Plains Drifter 11052]

2 hours ago, 'stache said:

There is no way she had a “reasonable” belief it was her apartment. She may have in fact thought that (still skeptical) but that belief is not reasonable. As I recall reasonableness is tested by way of the ordinary person. An ordinary person does not mistake another persons apartment for their own. And if her story is right that she was new to the building and the floors look similar a reasonable person would pay extra attention and in any event wouldn’t be so sure of themselves to blast another person with a pistol. Nothing about any of that is reasonable.

Agree. If you walk through the front door and see a stranger, it would be reasonable to first make sure you haven't making a mistake before opening fire.

Opening fire before making sure you haven't made a mistake is reckless and stupid. Reckless and stupid people shouldn't be carrying guns, and they shouldn't be cops.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

31 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

Maybe I'm just an idiot but I don't think an off duty cop, in uniform, should automatically be able to be an asshole and go randomly shooting people.   I think she should be held to a HIGHER standard.

This. 

[Guest Lobo]

Lt. Dreben, "Just think, the next I shoot somebody...I could be arrested."  

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

13 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

Reckless and stupid people shouldn't be carrying guns, and they shouldn't be cops.

Enrollment would plummet!! 

[immortal13 4059]

13 hours ago, 4th and 5 said:

I’ve commented on this way back when but It takes 10 of 12 grand jurors to find probable cause.

She will be indicted, of that I am sure, for what, I am not. If she Is not I believe the new DA will present the case to another grand jury next year  

But it should be murder as she intentionally caused the death of another. He conscious objective or desire in pointing a firearm at him and pulling the trigger twice is a textbook murder case.

She has the defenses of self defense and mistake of fact. Her belief does not have to be correct, it just has to be reasonable, even if it is wrong. You have the right to defend yourself from apparent danger as if it were real.

The state, not the defense, has the burden of DISPROVING, BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, the applicability of both of the defenses.

I'm looking forward to watching this trial. I would love to try this case.

I am afraid this is going to be what may get her off. If the grand jury believes that she was defending herself against what she believed was a threat to her life, then she was justified in her actions. 

[immortal13 4059]

2 hours ago, Kyle said:

Anyone no drunk on identity politics emotional hysteria ...

How does the fact she was off duty impact potential liability of the city? As a parallel, is it the fact she is a cop or a government employee change the situation as opposed to a private citizen? If she was a waitress at Hooters could the family sue the restaurant chain?

Not a good analogy with the Hooters waitress. For one thing, the cop most likely shot the victim with her service pistol provided by the police department, and she was in uniform. Hooters doesn't allow their waitresses to leave the property in their uniform 

[HenryJames 66179]

Indicted for manslaughter.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

2 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

Indicted for manslaughter.

Whew.

[tokamak 6442]

Some sources are saying murder.

Example, from WFAA: https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/special-reports/botham-jean/sources-fired-cop-amber-guyger-indicted-on-a-murder-charge-in-botham-jean-killing/287-619078538

Saw murder from a CBS11 reporter on Twitter as well.

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by tokamak

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

Murder is going to be an overcharge (even though it was murder). Too many people are going to give the cop the benefit of the doubt on a jury.

[immortal13 4059]

Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

Murder is going to be an overcharge (even though it was murder). Too many people are going to give the cop the benefit of the doubt on a jury.

I totally agree. I think she would have a far greater chance of getting acquitted of a murder charge. 

[tokamak 6442]

Random question, probably been discussed several times before:

if she's tried for murder, in theory the jury could return a not guilty on murder but a guilty on manslaughter, correct?

[Kyle 207]

1 hour ago, immortal13 said:

Not a good analogy with the Hooters waitress. For one thing, the cop most likely shot the victim with her service pistol provided by the police department, and she was in uniform. Hooters doesn't allow their waitresses to leave the property in their uniform 

I had heard that point in another discussion, which make sense. I'm not convinced the city should be liable, but that's a reasonable connection.

[4th&Five 41590]

 

[Kyle 207]

3 hours ago, bigup2dahorns said:

I believe the question is if she acted in a police capacity and is the city liable. I’m not a lawyer and not familiar with case law that would make it clear in either way. Sounds like it will be argued in court, unless someone here can set us straight.

Exactly. I agree with the sentiment above that cops should be held to much higher standards, but that was an answer to a different question. While I get the outrage machine has to be fueled and funded, this should be considered different IMHO than a "police shooting." This is more akin to the cop in Addison that shot those kids for trying to break in his car (different scenario, but he was not on duty). However, the same "shoot first, ask later" mentality that too many cops have obviously was at play.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Kyle

[mdmost 43052]

DMN is saying she was indicted on a murder charge. Not really clear if murder charge means indicted on murder or just manslaughter. 

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/courts/2018/11/30/grand-jury-gets-back-work-deciding-whether-indict-amber-guyger-killing-botham-jean

Edited November 30, 2018 by mdmost

[immortal13 4059]

I would like to know what the verbal exchange was after that door was open. What were her commands and what was his response? Did he charge towards her? I'm not blaming the victim, just interested in the facts. Since hers will be the only account, I guess we will probably never know the real truth

[immortal13 4059]

8 minutes ago, Kyle said:

Exactly. I agree with the sentiment above that cops should be held to much higher standards, but that was an answer to a different question. While I get the outrage machine has to be fueled and funded, this should be considered different IMHO than a "police shooting." This is more akin to the cop in Addison that shot those kids for trying to break in his car (different scenario, but he was not on duty). However, the same "shoot first, ask later" mentality that too many cops have obviously was at play.

That and it also raises the legitimate question of whether a female is suitable for that line of work, (see Tulsa cop shooting example). Did she panic out of fear and just start shooting, ignoring her police protocol and training? 

[bluto 4942]

Looks like murder not just manslaughter 

[bigup2dahorns 3343]

DMN is saying she was indicted on a murder charge. Not really clear if murder charge means indicted on murder or just manslaughter. 
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/courts/2018/11/30/grand-jury-gets-back-work-deciding-whether-indict-amber-guyger-killing-botham-jean

Should be cleared up at the press conference this afternoon

[Gene Parmesan 4014]

1 minute ago, immortal13 said:

I would like to know what the verbal exchange was after that door was open. What were her commands and what was his response? Did he charge towards her? I'm not blaming the victim, just interested in the facts. Since hers will be the only account, I guess we will probably never know the real truth

I'm not sure of the exact commands, but he didn't respond or charge at her.  The body placement and limited evidence matched her account.  She never claimed he charged at her.  There was a lot of misinformation early on about arguments and noise complaints, so I don't know if those were all debunked or what, but I don't think any official neighbor testimony has conflicted with her account.

[Kyle 207]

13 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

I would like to know what the verbal exchange was after that door was open. What were her commands and what was his response? Did he charge towards her? I'm not blaming the victim, just interested in the facts. Since hers will be the only account, I guess we will probably never know the real truth

You're among n < 10.

[El Diablo 4232]

3 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

Agree. If you walk through the front door and see a stranger, it would be reasonable to first make sure you haven't making a mistake before opening fire.

Opening fire before making sure you haven't made a mistake is reckless and stupid. Reckless and stupid people shouldn't be carrying guns, and they shouldn't be cops.

Reasonable person, cop or not, doesn't open fire unless they honestly believe they are in their own home which it appears is the case here. I'm just saying that if I found myself in (what I THOUGHT was) my own home and for whatever reason thought it was necessary to shoot to kill, I'm not walking back out to the street to check the address. I'm pulling my gun BECAUSE of what I believe the facts to be.

Fact remains is it would seem that she had options other than shooting to kill. Murder is the correct charge.

[bigup2dahorns 3343]

[George 493]

So if people here say the correct charge is murder but they indict for manslaughter, does that open up a loophole for defense come trial time?

[immortal13 4059]

6 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

Reasonable person, cop or not, doesn't open fire unless they honestly believe they are in their own home which it appears is the case here. I'm just saying that if I found myself in (what I THOUGHT was) my own home and for whatever reason thought it was necessary to shoot to kill, I'm not walking back out to the street to check the address. I'm pulling my gun BECAUSE of what I believe the facts to be.

Fact remains is it would seem that she had options other than shooting to kill. Murder is the correct charge.

I'm not sure your logic is correct here. The only reason it could be considered murder is because her action was deliberate, not because she had other options. If a jury is convinced that she really believed she was in her own home and she perceived the threat as real, she could be acquitted. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by immortal13

[staboner 4988]

6 minutes ago, Kyle said:

You're among n < 10.

bitchassed post

plenty of thought in all directions on this read. and plenty curious as to how this all went down. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by staboner

[Kyle 207]

Just now, staboner said:

you post like a little bitch

plenty of thought in all directions on this read. and plenty curious as to how this all went down. 

Thanks man. You really got me on that one. You seem tough. Sorry for hitting a nerve.

[Deej 76928]

19 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Did she panic out of fear and just start shooting, ignoring her police protocol and training? 

I thought "just start shooting" was protocol?

[immortal13 4059]

Just now, Deej said:

I thought "just start shooting" was protocol?

Sure seems that way

[NeverMarryAStripper 21922]

Not a good analogy with the Hooters waitress. For one thing, the cop most likely shot the victim with her service pistol provided by the police department, and she was in uniform. Hooters doesn't allow their waitresses to leave the property in their uniform 

Also, part of her defense was his failure to follow her instructions. I’m pretty sure the only instruction I’m legally required to follow from a Hooter’s waitress is drop your pants and let me blow you.

[bigup2dahorns 3343]

DA press conference underway

[bigup2dahorns 3343]

DA says the indictment is for murder

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

21 minutes ago, Deej said:

I thought "just start shooting" was protocol?

Dead men tell no tales. 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 minute ago, bigup2dahorns said:

DA says the indictment is for murder

In order to get her to plead to manslaughter. Maybe I'm being skeptical but that's going to be a hard charge to convict. She's never wavered from her story. They'll be enough people on her jury thinking "this isn't murder". 

As asked earlier--in Texas--can a jury come back with a lesser charge or is that on the DA?

[bigup2dahorns 3343]

Asked why it is now murder vs manslaughter the DA says they presented the evidence and explained the law to the grand jury. Said they talked to over 300 witnesses in the case.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

2 minutes ago, bigup2dahorns said:

Asked why it is now murder vs manslaughter the DA says they presented the evidence and explained the law to the grand jury. Said they talked to over 300 witnesses in the case.

300 witnesses? Gotta be more to this case than what the Cop is saying.

[Brisketexan 105354]

1 minute ago, Cheeseweasel said:

300 witnesses? Gotta be more to this case than what the Cop is saying.

Lot of apartments in that building.  Not a single other tenant ever went to the wrong door and shot someone.  

I'm joking...but I'm kinda serious.  Those are potential witnesses as to whether her actions and beliefs were reasonable.

[Herpa Derpa 6131]

As the son of a man who prosecuted for Henry Wade, color me motherfucking impressed.  She may still walk, but the indictment alone is a tonal shift for this town.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Lot of apartments in that building.  Not a single other tenant ever went to the wrong door and shot someone.  

I'm joking...but I'm kinda serious.  Those are potential witnesses as to whether her actions and beliefs were reasonable.

True. Plus everyone she's ever served with/trained with probably got interviewed.

[bigup2dahorns 3343]

DA says they waited to present to the grand jury when they had fully investigated this case and they were not going to bow down to political pressure to act quickly or before they were ready.

[immortal13 4059]

I bet she gets acquitted. All she has to do is convince a few jurors that she truly believed she was in her own apartment and in danger. She is white and a cop.....shouldn't be too hard to accomplish

[bigup2dahorns 3343]

The Jean family will have their own press conference later

[Brisketexan 105354]

Just now, immortal13 said:

I bet she gets acquitted. All she has to do is convince a few jurors that she truly believed she was in her own apartment and in danger. She is white and a cop.....shouldn't be too hard to accomplish

Yes.  And layer on the fact that "as a result of my years of training, and expert ability to spot a threat, and his furtive movements and refusal to follow my lawful commands, this giant, drug-crazed man was reasonably seen as a threat who had to be neutralized, for my safety and that of those whom I protect and serve.  Back the blue."  She walks.

[bigup2dahorns 3343]

The grand jury returned the indictment on murder only. No action on the manslaughter.

[Brisketexan 105354]

Just now, bigup2dahorns said:

The grand jury returned the indictment on murder only. No action on the manslaughter.

Is it not a lesser included offense?

As you can tell, that ain't my area of practice.

[tokamak 6442]

13 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

As asked earlier--in Texas--can a jury come back with a lesser charge or is that on the DA?

A little research after I posed that question indicates that the jury could, in fact, return a guilty on manslaughter. I'm an expert in criminal legal proceedings now, thanks internet!

Just now, bigup2dahorns said:

The grand jury returned the indictment on murder only. No action on the manslaughter.

I believe that backs up what I found. No need to indict on manslaughter if she'll be tried for murder.

[bigup2dahorns 3343]

Is it not a lesser included offense?
As you can tell, that ain't my area of practice.

Well I didn’t even go to law school so there’s that too. I’m just trying to relay what was asked and answered at this press conference. Reporter wanted to know what happened to the manslaughter charge from earlier (Texas Rangers) and the DA replied that it was no action on that.

[TwiceHorn 31537]

Seems appropriate.  John Creuzot will be the DA when this goes to trial and I trust him to do the right thing (/spike lee).  He's a good man, regardless of political affiliation, and has a track record of doing the right thing without regard for political consequences (he "invented" drug courts and other diversion programs in Dallas County many years ago as a judge).