Dallas officer kills man after mistaking apartment for her own, police say

[South Austin 52632]

Fuck this cynicism.  I say the jury doesn't buy her bullshit anymore than we do and they convict.  I ain't even drunk.

[TwiceHorn 31576]

Jury selection will be hugely important in this case.  But as recently evidenced by the Dallas County election returns, it's not as easy to empanel a bunch of white morons as it was in Wade's day.  The defense might be well-advised to try to move it to one of the more outlying counties.

[El Diablo 4232]

49 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

I'm not sure your logic is correct here. The only reason it could be considered murder is because her action was deliberate, not because she had other options. If a jury is convinced that she really believed she was in her own home and she perceived the threat as real, she could be acquitted. 

I understand and it's why I find myself going back and forth on the question. It's a can of worms. My meager understanding is that mistake of fact can be used as a defense. I expect the lawyers on both sides to beat that phrase unmercifully.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

 The defense might be well-advised to try to move it to one of the more outlying counties.

Can't imagine a judge would allow that. But I'm a skeptical mother fucker who's not drunk.

[immortal13 4059]

Just now, El Diablo said:

I understand and it's why I find myself going back and forth on the question. It's a can of worms. My meager understanding is that mistake of fact can be used as a defense. I expect the lawyers on both sides to beat that phrase unmercifully.

I hate to say this, but according to the law she may not have committed a crime. The law affords you the right to defend yourself against a perceived threat, even if that threat isn't real. 

[TwiceHorn 31576]

3 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

I understand and it's why I find myself going back and forth on the question. It's a can of worms. My meager understanding is that mistake of fact can be used as a defense. I expect the lawyers on both sides to beat that phrase unmercifully.

As near as i can figure it, and 4th and 5 I think sussed it out this way, she has to first prove a reasonable mistake of fact to invoke a self-defense argument.  And then her use of force has to be proportional to the reasonably perceived threat, most likely.  So, her actions are going to be subject to a reasonableness inquiry at two levels.

I would not be surprised if she were convicted, but given a fairly lenient sentence.

It's not quite as simple as immortal13 sets out, but it could play out that way.

Edited November 30, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[bigup2dahorns 3343]

Well now we can speculate as to the likelihood of a plea deal, or not. Without knowing much, my guess is this goes to trial.

[po elvis 2080]

thank god.

since i will be in Dallas this weekend.

[immortal13 4059]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

As near as i can figure it, and 4th and 5 I think sussed it out this way, she has to first prove a reasonable mistake of fact to invoke a self-defense argument.  And then her use of force has to be proportional to the reasonably perceived threat, most likely.  So, her actions are going to be subject to a reasonableness inquiry at two levels.

I would not be surprised if she were convicted, but given a fairly lenient sentence.

It's not quite as simple as immortal13 sets out, but it could play out that way.

That's why I am curious as to what exactly happened after the door opened. Did he do anything to give her justification for shooting? Good thing for her she left no witnesses 

[El Diablo 4232]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

As near as i can figure it, and 4th and 5 I think sussed it out this way, she has to first prove a reasonable mistake of fact to invoke a self-defense argument.  And then her use of force has to be proportional to the reasonably perceived threat, most likely.  So, her actions are going to be subject to a reasonableness inquiry at two levels.

I would not be surprised if she were convicted, but given a fairly lenient sentence.

Makes some sense. Some leeway given on the reasonably possible mistake of being in the wrong home and thinking it was her own but on the question of shooting the poor guy, maybe not so reasonable. I think the evidence will provide the answers. Brisket will lose his shit.

[TwiceHorn 31576]

23 minutes ago, Herpa Derpa said:

As the son of a man who prosecuted for Henry Wade, color me motherfucking impressed.  She may still walk, but the indictment alone is a tonal shift for this town.

I had a friend in high school whose Dad was one of Wade's prosecutors.  Then he was a defense attorney that got paid in boats, cars and motorcycles frequently.  Then he was convicted of conspiracy to distribute cocaine.  Texas graduates, pere et fils.

/csb

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

4 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

That's why I am curious as to what exactly happened after the door opened. Did he do anything to give her justification for shooting? Good thing for her she left no witnesses 

Bingo. It's all going to hinge on what she said in her first interview. Look for "furtive movements" x 100

[TwiceHorn 31576]

I think one of the key factors is whether she is permitted to invoke the castle doctrine (being in one's home may not be a question of fact about which one can be mistaken:  either you are or you are not).  If she is permitted to invoke the castle doctrine version of self-defense, then her actions have to be less reasonable/proportionate to the threat.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think one of the key factors is whether she is permitted to invoke the castle doctrine (being in one's home may not be a question of fact about which one can be mistaken:  either you are or you are not).  If she is permitted to invoke the castle doctrine version of self-defense, then her actions have to be less reasonable/proportionate to the threat.

Hadn't though of that. They could even stretch the doctrine to include the entire apartment complex as part of the "castle". 

My guess is that they portray her as equal parts "highly trained officer who understands threat assessment" and "poor white girl who was scared for her life".

[immortal13 4059]

I'd like to know the results of the toxicology testing 

[Austinvines 318]

I’m hearing that if MS isn’t charged/indicted it isn’t a lesser included offense so if she walks on murder, she walks. Maybe 4th and 5 will chime in.

[Deej 76962]

It will be interesting to find out what type of interaction(s), if any, had occurred between the two prior to the shooting. With that many witnesses interviewed, I'm willing to bet the other residents might have had something to add. 

[LongestHorn 759]

I accidentally posted this update in the wrong forum, and managed not to murder anyone over the mistake.

[immortal13 4059]

1 minute ago, LongestHorn said:

I accidentally posted this update in the wrong forum, and managed not to murder anyone over the mistake.

Keep you gun in its holster, buddy

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

19 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

I hate to say this, but according to the law she may not have committed a crime. The law affords you the right to defend yourself against a perceived threat, even if that threat isn't real. 

I don't think so.  You are saying you have to prove subjective intent only.  It is objective + subjective, i.e., would a reasonable person have concluded self defense was necessary, and did you honestly conclude it was necessary.

 

She could have actually believed she needed to act in self defense but it was objectively unreasonable to believe so and still be guilty.  (I think)

 

https://www.lclark.edu/live/files/7234-lcb144art5forellpdf

[immortal13 4059]

1 minute ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

I don't think so.  You are saying you have to prove subjective intent only.  It is objective + subjective, i.e., would a reasonable person have concluded self defense was necessary, and did you honestly conclude it was necessary.

 

She could have actually believed she needed to act in self defense but it was objectively unreasonable to believe so and still be guilty.  (I think)

 

https://www.lclark.edu/live/files/7234-lcb144art5forellpdf

Right, and I am not saying her actions would pass the standard of reasonability.  That is why I would love to know what really happened after that door opened. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by immortal13

[LongestHorn 759]

So ghosts is a muder defense?

[immortal13 4059]

1 minute ago, LongestHorn said:

So ghosts is a muder defense?

Depends on how scared of ghosts you are

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

Here is something saying in Texas manslaughter is a lesser included of murder.

 

http://texasbarbooks.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/PJC-Gen-Instructions-Charges-Chs-Six-and-Eight.pdf

 

 

[LongestHorn 759]

Did he say boo?

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

Just now, LongestHorn said:

Did he say boo?

Fervently. 

[immortal13 4059]

2 minutes ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

Here is something saying in Texas manslaughter is a lesser included of murder.

 

http://texasbarbooks.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/PJC-Gen-Instructions-Charges-Chs-Six-and-Eight.pdf

 

 

But what if the elements aren't met for the lesser charge, in this case manslaughter?

[immortal13 4059]

1 minute ago, LongestHorn said:

Did he say boo?

 

6 minutes ago, LongestHorn said:

So ghosts is a muder defense?

Spooks

[Deej 76962]

12 minutes ago, LongestHorn said:

So ghosts is a muder defense?

You think she'd be comfortable around people in white sheets. 

[Brisketexan 105450]

39 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

Makes some sense. Some leeway given on the reasonably possible mistake of being in the wrong home and thinking it was her own but on the question of shooting the poor guy, maybe not so reasonable. I think the evidence will provide the answers. Brisket will lose his shit.

She walks.  You know how the facts will work out.

Had this been a generic person (hell, let's flip it -- black guy walks into white girl's apartment), it's a guaranteed conviction of AT LEAST manslaughter.

But because she's a cop, AND because he's a big black guy....she walks.

35 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Bingo. It's all going to hinge on what she said in her first interview. Look for "furtive movements" x 100

Furtive movements.

Did not obey my lawful commands (nevermind that fuck you, I don't obey shit when I'm in my own home watching goddamned TV).

He was in a drug-crazed frenzy (they'll 100% use the MJ against him).

So, of course, she feared for her life.  And she knows all about these dangers, because she's a trained cop.  If a cop feels threatened, then it's a genuine threat, because a trained cop would never be afraid of something that's NOT a genuine threat.  QED.

She walks.

['stache 21892]

1 hour ago, South Austin said:

Fuck this cynicism.  I say the jury doesn't buy her bullshit anymore than we do and they convict.  I ain't even drunk.

I hope so.  I'll hold on to a shred of hope for humanity, but an acquittal here would do away with it entirely.

37 minutes ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

I don't think so.  You are saying you have to prove subjective intent only.  It is objective + subjective, i.e., would a reasonable person have concluded self defense was necessary, and did you honestly conclude it was necessary.

 

She could have actually believed she needed to act in self defense but it was objectively unreasonable to believe so and still be guilty.  (I think)

 

https://www.lclark.edu/live/files/7234-lcb144art5forellpdf

This.  I'll be interested to read this law review.  But reasonableness is the standard and is measured as an ordinary person.  Your last sentence hits the nail on the head.  Even if she subjectively believed force was necessary that belief was unreasonable because it was not her apartment and a reasonable ordinary person would not enter another person's apartment believing it is theres with such certainty that they are ready to start blasting. The only reasonable examples of walking into someone else's place by accident are usually drunk people in dorms that look alike who simply pass out. If someone opens the door and says "what up bro this ain't your place" they just walk on and say "thank bro."  They don't have a service weapon and start blasting immediately.  That is not reasonable under any objective analysis.

Edited November 30, 2018 by 'stache

['stache 21892]

To add to that, I still think it's likely she was heading home from a bar and was tipsy or drunk. Of course we'd never know because she'll be protected while they happily released almost immediately that Blacky McBlackerson had some pot in his place.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 minute ago, 'stache said:

To add to that, I still think it's likely she was heading home from a bar and was tipsy or drunk. Of course we'd never know because she'll be protected while they happily released almost immediately that Blacky McBlackerson had some pot in his place.

Yeah. Her tox screen is important. If they made her take one. Regardless, a few of the 300 witnesses may be bar patrons/bar employees who can speak to this.

[Rip76 4967]

1 hour ago, immortal13 said:

That's why I am curious as to what exactly happened after the door opened. Did he do anything to give her justification for shooting? Good thing for her she left no witnesses 

I'm curious about this too.

[immortal13 4059]

1 minute ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Yeah. Her tox screen is important. If they made her take one. Regardless, a few of the 300 witnesses may be bar patrons/bar employees who can speak to this.

It's been reported that they took a sample of her blood.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

Just now, immortal13 said:

It's been reported that they took a sample of her blood.

Yesterday...

['stache 21892]

1 minute ago, immortal13 said:

It's been reported that they took a sample of her blood.

I'm pretty sure that's super secret private information.  Meanwhile, Potty McPotface shouldn't have done so much pot if he wanted to not get shot by a stranger in his own apartment.

[Brisketexan 105450]

Just now, Rip76 said:

I'm curious about this too.

What happened after the door opened?

She'll tell us EXACTLY what happened after it opened.  Wanna lay odds on whether she uses "furtive movements" or a similar term?  And something to the effect of "I gave him a lawful command to freeze and put his hands up, and he did not comply."  And something to the effect of "I am trained to notice the erratic behavior of someone under the influence of a dangerous illegal drug, and he showed all the traits."  Come on.  We all know how this will go.

[DDD Dad 14354]

/csb 

My daughter (the moniker for DDD) got called to be on the grand jury that heard this case.  She didn't get picked (whew).

[kevwun 15936]

She may have very well be under the influence, but I don't think cops can drink at a bar in uniform in this day and age with camera phones.  They would get busted all the time.

[immortal13 4059]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

What happened after the door opened?

She'll tell us EXACTLY what happened after it opened.  Wanna lay odds on whether she uses "furtive movements" or a similar term?  And something to the effect of "I gave him a lawful command to freeze and put his hands up, and he did not comply."  And something to the effect of "I am trained to notice the erratic behavior of someone under the influence of a dangerous illegal drug, and he showed all the traits."  Come on.  We all know how this will go.

Don't forget "he was reaching for something" or " he had something in his hands"

[Brisketexan 105450]

Just now, immortal13 said:

Don't forget "he was reaching for something" or " he had something in his hands"

Oh.  How silly of me to forget.  Of course.  And it will be a "black, shiny object."

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

8 minutes ago, kevwun said:

She may have very well be under the influence, but I don't think cops can drink at a bar in uniform in this day and age with camera phones.  They would get busted all the time.

Cop bars don't snitch on cops.

[kevwun 15936]

Yeah, but random people in the bar and the street outside do.

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

I think we just found out someone's daughter has triple Ds.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

3 minutes ago, kevwun said:

Yeah, but random people in the bar and the street outside do.

Are you making furtive movements towards me?

[kevwun 15936]

No, but your mom likes it when I get furtive.

[blacklab 11956]

pics?

[Brisketexan 105450]

Furtive mom?

[BarStella 13]

With a black girl the other night. Doing drugs and shit. I look up and go "Oh shit I should probably lock the door". She responds, "You mean it was unlocked the whole time?"