Dallas officer kills man after mistaking apartment for her own, police say

[Brisketexan 104557]

37 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The political climate has everyone on edge one way or another.  Look at poor brisket.  I'm just glad he has threads like these to take his mind off the apocalypse for a bit.

Meh.  I'll take your pity when/if I'm proven wrong about the tidal wave of bullshittery.  Kids still in jails, admin openly defying court orders, lying is the only currency worth a damn in the political market....what really sucks is that I'm turning out to be way more right than wrong about the shitstorm we're in (hell, my big "miss" was saying Roy Moore would win -- and even then, he only lost by a 1.5% margin).

This topic is just another brick in the wall -- innocent victim, and the "law and order, all cops are heroes" crowd is 100% certain to do all they can to 1) pull the cop's ass out of the frying pan, and 2) do so by blaming the victim.  We've all seen this 1,000 times.  3rd and 12.  Greg Davis calls a .5 yard screen pass.

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

That's fair.  She has received some disparate treatment.  So far, it's not the worst case of blue line I have seen.  I think the fact that DPD wanted to indict her for manslaughter, immediately, seemed encouraging.  Kinda goes downhill from there.  I wonder what her bail is?

On the video, I had seen it and dismissed it.  When I asked about it, it was legit.

SOME disparate treatment?  Again, repeat these events, except make the cop the resident-victim, and the armed citizen returning home the shooter.  The shooter would already be UNDER the jail.  You know that is true.

Y'all want to take bets on when her allies start releasing stories about the victim's "criminal past" in St. Lucia (like that time he and his buddies got busted for a joint, or something like that)?  I say 2 more days, and I'll bet the under.

[bernorange 8348]

8 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

... I wonder what her bail is?...

I saw it quoted at $300,000

[TwiceHorn 31262]

2 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

People are also reacting based on the understood history behind stuff like that. "We charged her! We're doing our job!" quickly becomes soft-selling a grand jury in the hopes of not getting an indictment all too often. And that's why the language and tone of the arrest affidavit is immediately bothersome to people.

Not to mention it creates a situation where people are required to assume someone who illegally breaks into and enters your home in the dark and says "put your hands up" is a police officer. If she gets away with this, that will be the actual logical takeaway for citizens moving forward. And that is almost a good enough societal reason to convict her all on its own.

Oh I get it.

Here's a bit of an oddball thing.  Murder is a first degree felony.  She qualifies for murder, as has been discussed.  However, upon proof of "adequate cause" at the punishment phase, it becomes second degree.  Exactly same as manslaughter.  But with murder, the burden is on her to reduce it to second degree.

Having considered that, I think it is actually more appropriate that she be charged with murder.  The outcome could be almost exactly the same, if not exactly, but it seems appropriate to force her to explain herself.

[TwiceHorn 31262]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Meh.  I'll take your pity when/if I'm proven wrong about the tidal wave of bullshittery.  Kids still in jails, admin openly defying court orders, lying is the only currency worth a damn in the political market....what really sucks is that I'm turning out to be way more right than wrong about the shitstorm we're in (hell, my big "miss" was saying Roy Moore would win -- and even then, he only lost by a 1.5% margin).

This topic is just another brick in the wall -- innocent victim, and the "law and order, all cops are heroes" crowd is 100% certain to do all they can to 1) pull the cop's ass out of the frying pan, and 2) do so by blaming the victim.  We've all seen this 1,000 times.  3rd and 12.  Greg Davis calls a .5 yard screen pass.

SOME disparate treatment?  Again, repeat these events, except make the cop the resident-victim, and the armed citizen returning home the shooter.  The shooter would already be UNDER the jail.  You know that is true.

Y'all want to take bets on when her allies start releasing stories about the victim's "criminal past" in St. Lucia (like that time he and his buddies got busted for a joint, or something like that)?  I say 2 more days, and I'll bet the under.

Just teasing man,  ease up.  The take your mind off the apocalypse thing should have been in the sarcasm font.

Edited September 11, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[South Austin 52127]

23 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I will take issue with one thing and then stop. 

Liar!!!!!!!!

[Brisketexan 104557]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

Just teasing man,  ease up.

Ease up?

Perhaps you haven't seen my dial....

[J.R. Juniors Junior Jr. 1084]

2 hours ago, HiggyBaby said:

Lived below him. Maybe she was just tired of his music and 3am vacuuming.

He took his duties as an upstairs neighbor very seriously.

 

[TwiceHorn 31262]

Also, it probably is worthwhile to point out that she hasn't actually been indicted yet.  Arrested on a capias.  All kinds of mischief may be yet to come.  Or maybe the right thing happens.

 

I suppose I was taking encouragement from the Balch Springs conviction.

Edited September 11, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[relapse98 634]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

Or maybe the right thing happens.

Dead guy aint coming back to life.

(I know that's not what you meant, but that is the "right thing").

[TwiceHorn 31262]

11 minutes ago, South Austin said:

Liar!!!!!!!!

I meant stop jousting with Huck about my motivations.  Still gonna bloviate on the thread.

[bernorange 8348]

Quote

Dallas police officer Amber Guyger, who fatally shot her neighbor, Botham Jean, may ultimately receive a more serious charge than manslaughter, for which she was arrested Sunday night, said Dallas County District Attorney Faith Johnson on Monday.

Guyger's case will go before a grand jury, Johnson told reporters, which may indict her on a graver charge. "The grand jury will be that entity that will make the final decision in terms of the charge or charges that will come out of this case," Johnson said. "We prepare to present a thorough case to the grand jury of Dallas County, so that the right decision can be made in this case."

...

http://theweek.com/speedreads/795294/dallas-cop-wrong-apartment-shooting-may-more-serious-charge-than-manslaughter?yptr=yahoo

 

[Brisketexan 104557]

5 minutes ago, bernorange said:

http://theweek.com/speedreads/795294/dallas-cop-wrong-apartment-shooting-may-more-serious-charge-than-manslaughter?yptr=yahoo

 

I'm sure that the DA's office will zealously present the case to the grand jury.  [eyeroll]

[El Diablo 4232]

I thought it was up to the Prosecutor to decide what charges they would try to go with. Surprised I am.

[Huckleberry 32694]

"Ladies and gentlemen of the grand jury, the case before you is a tragic one. A man is dead. He died as a result of a tragic confluence of unlikely circumstances, after the defendant returned home IN UNIFORM from A 15-HOUR SHIFT of defending all of us and, yes, you as well. She WAS REALLY TIRED and the deceased had LEFT HIS DOOR OPEN and IN THE DARK she gave him LEGAL COMMANDS which he did not follow despite her previously mentioned UNIFORMED APPEARANCE. She QUITE REASONABLY believed he was an intruder in her home because SHE WAS REALLY TIRED and the apartments were STRUCTURALLY IDENTICAL and he LEFT HIS DOOR OPEN and THE RED MAT WAS OBSCURED BY WHAT SHE WAS CARRYING.

We yield to your collective wisdom. Thank you."

[HenryJames 65886]

2 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

"Ladies and gentlemen of the grand jury, the case before you is a tragic one. A man is dead. He died as a result of a tragic confluence of unlikely circumstances, after the defendant returned home IN UNIFORM from A 15-HOUR SHIFT of defending all of us and, yes, you as well. She WAS REALLY TIRED and the deceased had LEFT HIS DOOR OPEN and IN THE DARK she gave him LEGAL COMMANDS which he did not follow despite her previously mentioned UNIFORMED APPEARANCE. She QUITE REASONABLY believed he was an intruder in her home because SHE WAS REALLY TIRED and the apartments were STRUCTURALLY IDENTICAL and he LEFT HIS DOOR OPEN and THE RED MAT WAS OBSCURED BY WHAT SHE WAS CARRYING.

We yield to your collective wisdom. Thank you."

[formermav43 4599]

48 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Y'all want to take bets on when her allies start releasing stories about the victim's "criminal past" in St. Lucia (like that time he and his buddies got busted for a joint, or something like that)?  I say 2 more days, and I'll bet the under.

I don’t doubt they’ll try, because that’s the standard response. But based on everything I’ve read about the young man, I think they’re going to have a hard time digging up anything on him. 

They could still lie, of course,

[4th and 5 4914]

6 hours ago, cabowabo said:

Did they not issue a flashlight to this dumb bitch?

An interesting question, many officers have a tactical weapon light mounted under their Glock 

[TornACL 7675]

I think she should be locked up just to protect us from her incredible incompetence, which is clearly a danger to us all.

[Gene Parmesan 3993]

1 hour ago, formermav43 said:

I don’t doubt they’ll try, because that’s the standard response. But based on everything I’ve read about the young man, I think they’re going to have a hard time digging up anything on him. 

They could still lie, of course,

So much has come out about how good he was that at this point going for a smear campaign would likely backfire.  Guy's porn history is probably all missionary stuff.

[El Diablo 4232]

3 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

So much has come out about how good he was that at this point going for a smear campaign would likely backfire.  Guy's porn history is probably all missionary stuff.

She shot him for being a Baptist??

[TwiceHorn 31262]

We shall see whether Brisket's apocalypticon turns out right.  As related somewhere else, I vacillate between optimism and pessimism, but the most important thing for me to bear in mind is that I don't run this shit and I don't actually know how it's going to come out.

Jim Schutze's theory is that Dallas leadership has been so afraid of race riots for nigh on a half century that all the racial wounds are unaired.  Something tells me Faith Johnson isn't going to let it start now.

[hayden_horn 11360]

i know that we are in the business of ridiculing a 15 hour shift as an excuse for this dumbfuckery, but shouldn't it be illegal for a cop to work a shift that long? that seems like a recipe for disaster.

[Vic Mackey 46932]

i know that we are in the business of ridiculing a 15 hour shift as an excuse for this dumbfuckery, but shouldn't it be illegal for a cop to work a shift that long? that seems like a recipe for disaster.

Pretty sure she didn't work a 15 hour shift. Seeing as it was first reported as a 12 hour shift.

[Guest Lobo]

I can add this title to my collection of world's shortest books, 

"Negroes I Have Met while Lodging"  -by Amber Guyger 

[hayden_horn 11360]

2 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

6 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

i know that we are in the business of ridiculing a 15 hour shift as an excuse for this dumbfuckery, but shouldn't it be illegal for a cop to work a shift that long? that seems like a recipe for disaster.

Pretty sure she didn't work a 15 hour shift. Seeing as it was first reported as a 12 hour shift.

even a 12 hour shift is stretching the limits, imo. firemen work 24 hour shifts, but they presumably have a lot of downtime in between calls. a police officer is presumably patrolling, busting perps, writing tickets, serving warrants (which i think was reported what she was up to that day), all of which can understandably be stressful. i'm positing that an 8 hour shift for a cop should be the expected length, as stressful as the job can be. it can cause tired overreactions in life and death situations. which apparently happened here.

[lemonlime 5503]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=941636068387&id=177600528

Someone in the building posted that the door couldn't have been ajar as all the doors shut automatically.


 

Edited September 11, 2018 by lemonlime

[relapse98 634]

2 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Someone in the building posted that the door couldn't have been ajar as all the doors shut automatically.

Meh, unless each apartment has a failproof midget to slam the door shut, I wouldn't put too much stock into it having a closure mechanism. You can still put something between the door and jamb to keep it from shutting. Hell, they have a deadbolt that could be opened while the door was open that would prevent it from closing.

Edited September 11, 2018 by relapse98

[lemonlime 5503]

1 minute ago, relapse98 said:

Meh, unless each apartment has a failproof midget to slam the door shut, I wouldn't put too much stock into it having a closure mechanism. You can still put something between the door and jamb to keep it from shutting. Hell, they have a deadbolt that could be opened while the door was open that would prevent it from closing.

Sure.  Anything's possible.  But I'd put more weight on evidence that the doors automatically shut than I would on the shooter's self-serving account that the door was ajar

[Huckleberry 32694]

That video shows that it closes if left all the way open, but is it possible to intentionally open it only slightly and let it rest against the latch?

[TwiceHorn 31262]

5 minutes ago, relapse98 said:

Meh, unless each apartment has a failproof midget to slam the door shut, I wouldn't put too much stock into it having a closure mechanism. You can still put something between the door and jamb to keep it from shutting. Hell, they have a deadbolt that could be opened while the door was open that would prevent it from closing.

I got caught outside a hotel room in DC when I was six years old by one of those doors.  I'd be fucking livid if my apartment had one that locked behind me and would disable it at every opportunity and permanently if I could.

 

Can anyone free the video from facingbook?

 

Also, if a door is unlocked ("nightlatch" not deadbolt, obvs), will turning even a key that doesn't fit turn the knob?  I don't recollect and we don't have that kind of knob anymore.

Edited September 11, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[Huckleberry 32694]

Also, are there apartments that come with failproof midgets? If so, where? Asking for a friend.

[conVINCEd 21468]

1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

That video shows that it closes if left all the way open, but is it possible to intentionally open it only slightly and let it rest against the latch?

No idea about this particularly door, but for this type of door, yes, you can leave it cracked.  It needs a little momentum to shut completely.

[Gene Parmesan 3993]

6 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Sure.  Anything's possible.  But I'd put more weight on evidence that the doors automatically shut than I would on the shooter's self-serving account that the door was ajar

Exactly the door ajar statement is dubious at best.  Evidence that these doors essentially have to be purposefully left ajar would pretty much destroy that.  Why does anyone leave their door purposefully ajar and go to bed?

[TwiceHorn 31262]

Just now, Gene Parmesan said:

Exactly the door ajar statement is dubious at best.  Evidence that these doors essentially have to be purposefully left ajar would pretty much destroy that.  Why does anyone leave their door purposefully ajar and go to bed?

Technically, the words are those of the Texas Ranger that swore out the arrest affidavit, not the words of the defendant.  It's probably not a far stretch to say he used her words, or put his words in her mouth.

[bernorange 8348]

The issue with the door being open or not would be answered by evidence of where they found Jeans body.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

3 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

This is a really good point. The defense will use the accident narrative but she showed intent to kill by pulling the trigger. Her only accident was believing she had the right to kill a man because he didn’t obey her commands. I may need to refresh my knowledge of the penal code but I don’t think capital punshiment is allowed for disobeying a conman from a peace officer

Maybe there was a dog she was shooting at, and she missed the dog and hit the black man?

[Lhorn 4885]

What a terrible event.  I can understand why someone would think that her actions were influenced by a belief that as a cop she doesn’t have to follow the same rules as everyone else but I don’t agree with it. I think she perceived danger where it didn’t exist and the only thought that guided her action was self preservation. 

The fact that she was a cop I don’t think made her more likely to shoot. If she was a secretary with a legally obtained concealed carry weapon she would have fired too. The fact that she was “trained” should have made her much less likely to shoot but it didn’t.  She was simply profoundly  incompetent. 

Does anyone know or has it been mentioned whether she was a patrol officer or just someone who pushed paper?  

I don’t want to make it out to be a male/female thing because certainly a ton of male cops have done wrong, but would she have been so threatened if she were 6’2” 210#?  Maybe carrying a weapon and doing a job where physical size and strength could save your life isn’t for someone 5’4” 135#.

No, I’m wrong and sexist for even saying that. A properly trained woman of any size can physically manhandle a perp just the same as a much stronger man, probably even better.  

Edited September 11, 2018 by Lhorn

[Deej 76542]

27 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

even a 12 hour shift is stretching the limits, imo. firemen work 24 hour shifts, but they presumably have a lot of downtime in between calls. a police officer is presumably patrolling, busting perps, writing tickets, serving warrants (which i think was reported what she was up to that day), all of which can understandably be stressful. i'm positing that an 8 hour shift for a cop should be the expected length, as stressful as the job can be. it can cause tired overreactions in life and death situations. which apparently happened here.

Probably a 12 hour shift in name only. Gotta scam overtime pay from the taxpayers.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

16 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Also, are there apartments that come with failproof midgets? If so, where? Asking for a friend.

Yeah, but the deposit is prohibitive. 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

27 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

even a 12 hour shift is stretching the limits, imo. firemen work 24 hour shifts, but they presumably have a lot of downtime in between calls. a police officer is presumably patrolling, busting perps, writing tickets, serving warrants (which i think was reported what she was up to that day), all of which can understandably be stressful. i'm positing that an 8 hour shift for a cop should be the expected length, as stressful as the job can be. it can cause tired overreactions in life and death situations. which apparently happened here.

8 hour shifts would be worse. You have to think about down time and not just time on the job. So with 8 hour shifts there are only two days off. Not enough time to get back on a normal schedule for your off time, so it would destroy any chance at a normal life for those who work the evening or night shift. Also kills the department's ability to cover overtime in the even a cop gets sick or goes on vacation or whatever. Only two days a week that overtime can be worked for each cop unless they pull a double and work 16 hours.

[C-Man 27041]

5 minutes ago, Lhorn said:

Does anyone know or has it been mentioned whether she was a patrol officer or just someone who pushed paper?

 

Yes, she was a member of some "elite" DPD group and the story is that she was out serving arrest warrants all day in high crime areas.

The 12 (or 15)-hour shift thing doesn't surprise me. I was having a conversation with a buddy earlier that night about DPD and their "rapid" response times these days. I think DPD is way understaffed at the moment.

[South Austin 52127]

5 minutes ago, Deej said:

Probably a 12 hour shift in name only. Gotta scam overtime pay from the taxpayers.

Well, I generally come in at least fifteen minutes late, ah, I use the side door - that way the Chief can't see me, heh heh.  And, uh, after that I just sorta space out for about an hour.

Da-uh? Space out?

Yeah, I just stare at my desk; but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch, too. I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, police work.

[TwiceHorn 31262]

15 minutes ago, Lhorn said:

What a terrible event.  I can understand why someone would think that her actions were influenced by a belief that as a cop she doesn’t have to follow the same rules as everyone else but I don’t agree with it. I think she perceived danger where it didn’t exist and the only thought that guided her action was self preservation. 

The fact that she was a cop I don’t think made her more likely to shoot. If she was a secretary with a legally obtained concealed carry weapon she would have fired too. The fact that she was “trained” should have made her much less likely to shoot but it didn’t.  She was simply profoundly  incompetent. 

Does anyone know or has it been mentioned whether she was a patrol officer or just someone who pushed paper?  

I don’t want to make it out to be a male/female thing because certainly a ton of male cops have done wrong, but would she have been so threatened if she were 6’2” 210#?  Maybe carrying a weapon and doing a job where physical size and strength could save your life isn’t for someone 5’4” 135#.

No, I’m wrong and sexist for even saying that. A properly trained woman of any size can physically manhandle a perp just the same as a much stronger man, probably even better.  

I guess this is where I initially came out on it.  But, as Mojo articulately pointed out, the fact that she was a cop, with a police-issued handgun, changes everything.

I'm not quite convinced that she should receive severe punishment, but I think she needs to go through the most stringent processes (indictment/trial, and probably for murder, with lesser included offenses) that we've got because the fact is, she was a cop, even if she was acting more like a secretary with an airweight.

Edited September 11, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[TwiceHorn 31262]

6 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Yes, she was a member of some "elite" DPD group and the story is that she was out serving arrest warrants all day in high crime areas.

The 12 (or 15)-hour shift thing doesn't surprise me. I was having a conversation with a buddy earlier that night about DPD and their "rapid" response times these days. I think DPD is way understaffed at the moment.

Whether that is actually "high stress" or not, I will leave to someone else.  But as far as I know, that's one of those units that goes out with an MRAP and bazookas and shit, and I am reasonably certain that DPD makes it as stressful as humanly possible for all concerned, whether necessary or not.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

11 minutes ago, South Austin said:

Well, I generally come in at least fifteen minutes late, ah, I use the side door - that way the Chief can't see me, heh heh.  And, uh, after that I just sorta space out for about an hour.

Da-uh? Space out?

Yeah, I just stare at my desk; but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch, too. I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, police work.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

7 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I guess this is where I initially came out on it.  But, as Mojo articulately pointed out, the fact that she was a cop, with a police-issued handgun, changes everything.

I'm not quite convinced that she should receive severe punishment, but I think she needs to go through the most stringent processes (indictment/trial, and probably for murder, with lesser included offenses) that we've got because the fact is, she was a cop, even if she was acting more like a secretary with an airweight.

For the sake of argument, let's pretend she was an office clerk. Coming home from a late shift at the office. She carries, because she lives in a bad neighborhood. 

Same events occur. How should she be charged? 

[hayden_horn 11360]

18 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

8 hour shifts would be worse. You have to think about down time and not just time on the job. So with 8 hour shifts there are only two days off. Not enough time to get back on a normal schedule for your off time, so it would destroy any chance at a normal life for those who work the evening or night shift. Also kills the department's ability to cover overtime in the even a cop gets sick or goes on vacation or whatever. Only two days a week that overtime can be worked for each cop unless they pull a double and work 16 hours.

i'm confused by this. i work a (nominally) 8 hour shift with two days off, as do most people.

and overtime, i get, but 15 hours of warrant processing seems to be excessive. if they go over 8 hour shifts because of processing an arrest or a ticket, whatever, that's fine. overtime, i understand, because i work a lot of it myself. 

truck drivers can't work more than 11 hours straight. i presume police work involves driving most of the time, and it seems unsafe to have weary drivers in police cars.

edit: also, the fact that they are using the 15 hour shift as part of the narrative building underlines it as an issue, imo. seems like an admission that is too long for a shift, and that is part of the reason she was so tired she went to the wrong apartment.

Edited September 11, 2018 by hayden_horn

[C-Man 27041]

2 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

For the sake of argument, let's pretend she was an office clerk. Coming home from a late shift at the office. She carries, because she lives in a bad neighborhood. 

Same events occur. How should she be charged? 

She fucked up plain and simple IMO. The fact that she's a cop shouldn't really matter. I'm sorry she mistakenly drove to the wrong floor, I'm sorry she was carrying bags and didn't notice the red floor mat in front of his door, I'm sorry the door pushed open or was slightly ajar -- that's just really, really bad luck. But she FUCKED UP. This is the second shooting she's been involved with in less than five years with DPD and the proper way to handle the other night is back away into the hallway, draw her weapon or Taser if she felt imminent danger and called for backup. Then it's just a big kerfuffle and everybody laughs about it once the mistaken is realized.

But she pulled the trigger twice and killed an innocent man. I think that pretty easily meets the definition of manslaughter. She needs to lose her job with DPD, she needs to probably go through the rest of her life with a felony conviction on her record and she probably owes the Jean family a nice chunk of change for the killing of their son.

[0xdeadbeef 1626]

19 minutes ago, Lhorn said:

The fact that she was a cop I don’t think made her more likely to shoot. If she was a secretary with a legally obtained concealed carry weapon she would have fired too. The fact that she was “trained” should have made her much less likely to shoot but it didn’t.  She was simply profoundly  incompetent. 

Agree to disagree.  

Any Joe or Jane public would have backed up into the well-lit hallway and called 911.  If they had a concealed carry, maybe they pull it out, maybe they put a hand on it, but no-way-in-hell a normal person  shoots this guy.  It was BECAUSE she was a cop that she had the misguided belief that it was her duty and/or right to give commands to a stranger and then shoot him in short order when he didn't comply.   

 

 

 

 

 

[C-Man 27041]

13 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Whether that is actually "high stress" or not, I will leave to someone else.  But as far as I know, that's one of those units that goes out with an MRAP and bazookas and shit, and I am reasonably certain that DPD makes it as stressful as humanly possible for all concerned, whether necessary or not.

Seems like most police-involved shootouts/high-speed chases start out with an officer trying to serve a warrant. Of course that could be way wrong.