Dallas officer kills man after mistaking apartment for her own, police say

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, 77horn said:

If the article is correct and the door did not malfunction, or Jean intentional propping it open, it could not have been ajar.  Given the half eaten bowl of cereal and book, the most likely thing in my mind is that she knocked and he opened the door.

Yeah, not sounding good. So unless he did have it propped open her story is filling up with yet more holes.

[Gene Parmesan 3992]

1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

Ouch, that information on the apartment numbers being lit up right next to the door seems pretty damning to me. And this video of the door automatically closing is more damning than the first I saw as well. In this one it's let go when only open 6 inches or so, the first one had it being let go when it was fully open. Also a good look at the red light versus green light upon inserting your key.

The doors automatically shutting seems damning, but what is the scenario then?  He opens the door for her and walks back inside his apartment then she shoots him?  I suppose they knew each other then?

[miguelito 11204]

6 minutes ago, Cousin Strawberry said:

When is a door not a door?

When it's a jar!

(My mom's favorite clean joke)

[Huckleberry 32685]

5 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

The doors automatically shutting seems damning, but what is the scenario then?  He opens the door for her and walks back inside his apartment then she shoots him?  I suppose they knew each other then?

The more important part of that information is that it discredits Guyger's entire story. If she is claiming the door was slightly open but that's not possible then her credibility is toast. Now to be fair, it still possible it was propped open but that just got a lot more unlikely. It's also the first time I've seen the bright apartment number display reported on, which seems like a big enough deal that I'm surprised it hadn't been mentioned before.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

23 minutes ago, 77horn said:

I'm late to the discussion, but based upon the last couple of pages, I felt this article was interesting

1. Cop (Guyger) had filed a noise complaint about Jean a few days prior.
2.  Apartment # are displayed w/ illuminated sign next to door.
3.  Door are fire doors with automatically close.
4.  When key is inserted red light flashes if it is the wrong key
5. Jean had a half circle welcome mat outside his door.  Cop had no such welcome mat.

Cop's story is full of holes.

Yeah, the dailymail is the UK equivalent of the NY Post. Take it with a grain of salt.

[Gene Parmesan 3992]

The apartment #s were shown in videos early on.  To me that's 1 in a million things that should have registered with her between the garage and the door but didn't.  If you believe that her arriving at that door was in fact purely accidental then you pretty much just write those things off as being tuned out.  It happens.  The alternative to think she purposefully went to that door, but there is basically zero evidence of this other than unconfirmed noise complaints.  Now what happened after she arrived at the door is entirely in question.

[High Plains Drifter 10970]

I saw somewhere upthread that the cop was an "unofficial" security guard. If that's true, then is it possible her fob could have been programmed to open all the doors in the complex?

[High Plains Drifter 10970]

 

On 9/13/2018 at 9:44 AM, SDG said:

That makes it sound like she shot into the apartment and wasn’t already in the apartment like the initial report. They also called it a officer involved shooting unlike previously reported. 

 

I always prefer to soften up a room before I enter.

 

 

21 hours ago, Constant said:

You don’t wear (body cams) home. 

 

17 hours ago, El Diablo said:

Why do you guys go home strapped and in uniform and firemen don't? 

J/K!

 

If you are wearing your uniform and gun home, maybe you should? (I realize that is not your call to make.)

[Constant 6718]

7 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

 

I always prefer to soften up a room before I enter.

 

 

 

 

If you are wearing your uniform and gun home, maybe you should? (I realize that is not your call to make.)

The batteries would not last two days in a row. They really need to be charged daily and that is department policy. We also don’t have charging docks at home because it simultaneously charges and downloads the contents at the stations. 

[Reagan1k 3008]

17 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

The doors automatically shutting seems damning, but what is the scenario then?  He opens the door for her and walks back inside his apartment then she shoots him?  I suppose they knew each other then?

If she was fucking with the door and he heard it, he goes to the door and asks her WTF she's doing - She thinks its someone in her place- starts yelling open up -  He does so- she orders his hands up, etc - he doesn't comply, rightly in his own place....and she shoots.

Based on all the information and misinformation spewed so far that's the only way I can wrap my mind around it unless more info comes out that she snapped and its all a premeditated over-up.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Reagan1k said:

If she was fucking with the door and he heard it, he goes to the door and asks her WTF she's doing - She thinks its someone in her place- starts yelling open up -  He does so- she orders his hands up, etc - he doesn't comply, rightly in his own place....and she shoots.

Based on all the information and misinformation spewed so far that's the only way I can wrap my mind around it unless more info comes out that she snapped and its all a premeditated over-up.

So where was his body found ?  Ballistics should be able to tell how close she was to him when she fired her weapon, yada yada yada....

[Gene Parmesan 3992]

1 minute ago, Reagan1k said:

If she was fucking with the door and he heard it, he goes to the door and asks her WTF she's doing - She thinks its someone in her place- starts yelling open up -  He does so- she orders his hands up, etc - he doesn't comply, rightly in his own place....and she shoots.

Based on all the information and misinformation spewed so far that's the only way I can wrap my mind around it unless more info comes out that she snapped and its all a premeditated over-up.

But he was found on the other side of the room, wasn't he?  So he opens the door and then retreats to the other side during the back and forth?  I guess I could see this if he was found relatively close to the doorway.

[Dropout 355]

Any idea if these two particular apartments have balconies?

[South Austin 52037]

39 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Ouch, that information on the apartment numbers being lit up right next to the door seems pretty damning to me.

That and the welcome mat in front of his door.  How loopy after a long shift at work do you have to be to not even notice that there's now a fucking welcome mat in front of what you think is your door????

[Reagan1k 3008]

4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

So where was his body found ?  Ballistics should be able to tell how close she was to him when she fired her weapon, yada yada yada....

I'm not sure this has been made public.  Either way I can see it....she shoots him right at the door, or he starts backing up and not "complying" when he sees her draw and she still shoots.

I'm just theorizing in my own mind how this could happen based on the door situation, supposed statements from neighbors, etc.

[El Diablo 4232]

4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

So where was his body found ?  Ballistics should be able to tell how close she was to him when she fired her weapon, yada yada yada....

Where his body was found doesn't tell much. The ballistics on the other hand... I'm guessing he was right up on her trying to shove her dumb ass back out the door. If it was all just a horrible mistake and leaving her kneejerk reaction to shoot out of it, I'm betting the whole scene went down right at the door. I don't know anyone from St. Lucia but perhaps there was an accent that caused a lack of communication as well as the confusion over who was the resident of the apartment. It's pretty hard for me as a civilian to imagine a scenario where shooting someone becomes an option without some real clear and present danger or physical confrontation.

[Gene Parmesan 3992]

Just now, South Austin said:

That and the welcome mat in front of his door.  How loopy after a long shift at work do you have to be to not even notice that there's now a fucking welcome mat in front of what you think is your door????

There are a thousand things that could have registered in her mind but didn't.  Your brain tunes out a lot of crap when you go into routine mode even after only a 5 hour shift of sitting on your ass.  Doesn't excuse her killing, but it reconciles how she wound up at the door fairly simply.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, El Diablo said:

Where his body was found doesn't tell much. The ballistics on the other hand... I'm guessing he was right up on her trying to shove her dumb ass back out the door. If it was all just a horrible mistake and leaving her kneejerk reaction to shoot out of it, I'm betting the whole scene went down right at the door. I don't know anyone from St. Lucia but perhaps there was an accent that caused a lack of communication as well as the confusion over who was the resident of the apartment. It's pretty hard for me as a civilian to imagine a scenario where shooting someone becomes an option without some real clear and present danger or physical confrontation.

It does depending on where she said he was when she fired.

[Huckleberry 32685]

Just now, Gene Parmesan said:

There are a thousand things that could have registered in her mind but didn't.  Your brain tunes out a lot of crap when you go into routine mode even after only a 5 hour shift of sitting on your ass.  Doesn't excuse her killing, but it reconciles how she wound up at the door fairly simply.

Perhaps it can explain showing up at the door. The problem with this theory, though, is that zoning out like that requires that your routine is being repeated. That's how people leave their kids in a car, because once they get on the drive to work their brain checks out as they're in a routine. If the baby doesn't cry, it becomes dangerous if they're tired, etc.

But once she's at the door her routine was broken. There was a red doormat. The light that turns green when she inserts her key turns red instead. There were almost literally multiple red flags that should have snapped her out of it.

[El Diablo 4232]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

It does depending on where she said he was when she fired.

I don't think that people who've been shot are required to drop in their tracks.  Unless they've been given a lawful command of course.

[Reagan1k 3008]

Just now, South Austin said:

That and the welcome mat in front of his door.  How loopy after a long shift at work do you have to be to not even notice that there's now a fucking welcome mat in front of what you think is your door????

In my opinion, it's not that far fetched.....I have stuff magically appear in my house from time to time and find out it was there for days or weeks before I paid attention.

Not defending her, but my own experience says that when I'm in a routine, I miss stuff.  My wife redecorated some of our dining room once and had a bet with the decorator how long it would take me to notice.....Wife won with the over at 7 days.

She quite easily have been staring at her InstaBook account on the phone and just going through the motions.

I am in no way defending her at all and this is tragic....I'm just thinking out load as to how it even plausible.

[Pato del Muerto 52322]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

It doesn't.  A search warrant was obtained for the premises.  Although I question why such a warrant was needed as it seems that should have been done at the time.

Is the search warrant request a public document?  Would a judge not want an answer to the same question before signing it?  Why do you need a search warrant to search a crime scene?  

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

I don't think that people who've been shot are required to drop in their tracks.  Unless they've been given a lawful command of course.

Yeah true, I have no idea about the real effects of getting shot, but I'd think depending on the caliber, the shot (a kill shot or just wound shot) and the distance from the muzzle, Gun powder residue and what not.   You'd be able to ascertain that info. potentially.

[Pato del Muerto 52322]

14 minutes ago, Reagan1k said:

I'm not sure this has been made public.  Either way I can see it....she shoots him right at the door, or he starts backing up and not "complying" when he sees her draw and she still shoots.

I'm just theorizing in my own mind how this could happen based on the door situation, supposed statements from neighbors, etc.

The old furtive retreat

[Gene Parmesan 3992]

4 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Perhaps it can explain showing up at the door. The problem with this theory, though, is that zoning out like that requires that your routine is being repeated. That's how people leave their kids in a car, because once they get on the drive to work their brain checks out as they're in a routine. If the baby doesn't cry, it becomes dangerous if they're tired, etc.

But once she's at the door her routine was broken. There was a red doormat. The light that turns green when she inserts her key turns red instead. There were almost literally multiple red flags that should have snapped her out of it.

I agree, but I don't know what it really matters if she should have snapped out of it but didn't.  Does it up the crime factor?  She certainly was snapped out of routine with either the door being ajar (her story) or him opening (alternate theory) and at that point everyone is still alive.  Everything that happened after that point is where the relevant criminal evidence is, imo.  Unless you believe that she went to his apartment on purpose.

[South Austin 52037]

7 minutes ago, Reagan1k said:

In my opinion, it's not that far fetched.....I have stuff magically appear in my house from time to time and find out it was there for days or weeks before I paid attention.

Not defending her, but my own experience says that when I'm in a routine, I miss stuff.  My wife redecorated some of our dining room once and had a bet with the decorator how long it would take me to notice.....Wife won with the over at 7 days.

She quite easily have been staring at her InstaBook account on the phone and just going through the motions.

I am in no way defending her at all and this is tragic....I'm just thinking out load as to how it even plausible.

That's quite a stretch.  You don't notice new shit that your wife arranged in the dining room?  Okay, maybe you get a pass for being oblivious, but you didn't walk into somebody else's fucking house first.  And let's you don't notice a new welcome mat at the front door to your house?  Okay, maybe you subconsciously chalk that up to your wife buying a new one and think nothing of it. 

But this cop lived alone, so it's not like she could've assumed her roommate just decided to buy a new welcome mat.  It's different and new feature that's not insignificant.  

[Deej 76511]

17 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

 It's pretty hard for me as a civilian to imagine a scenario where shooting someone becomes an option without some real clear and present danger or physical confrontation.

That's why you're a civilian. It's very easy for cops to imagine such scenarios. 

[Zepol87 9163]

1 hour ago, Gene Parmesan said:

The doors automatically shutting seems damning, but what is the scenario then?  He opens the door for her and walks back inside his apartment then she shoots him?  I suppose they knew each other then?

opens door to her bitching about someting, says fuck you it is late leave me alone. Walks away from door knowing it will shut on its own,  she stops it before it closes and bang bang

[South Austin 52037]

7 minutes ago, South Austin said:

That's quite a stretch.  You don't notice new shit that your wife arranged in the dining room?  Okay, maybe you get a pass for being oblivious, but you didn't walk into somebody else's fucking house first.  And let's say you don't notice a new welcome mat at the front door to your house?  Okay, maybe you subconsciously chalk that up to your wife buying a new one and think nothing of it.   

But this cop lived alone, so it's not like she could've assumed her roommate just decided to buy a new welcome mat.  It's different and new feature that's not insignificant.  

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by South Austin
I have no fucking clue what just happened.

[Gene Parmesan 3992]

So what does the red mat signify then?  That she was aware it was the wrong apartment well before entering, and this is cold blooded murder?

[Reagan1k 3008]

5 minutes ago, South Austin said:

That's quite a stretch. 

I don't disagree that it is a stretch, but this story is so crazy that I'm having a hard time figuring out if option B is even possible (she was brain-dead that day and fucked-up)....with option A being an intentional act after she caused a confrontation related to the noise complaint, etc.

I have no clue what is right, and am only certain that if I formed an opinion right now it would probably change as more info comes out.

WHAT she did and WHY are separate issues than the way the PD and DA are handling it after the shots were fired.

[South Austin 52037]

7 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

So what does the red mat signify then?  That she was aware it was the wrong apartment well before entering, and this is cold blooded murder?

It makes that scenario seem a hell of a lot more plausible than the story that she mistakenly thought this was her apartment.  But that only further begs the question of why this happened.

[TwiceHorn 31184]

23 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Is the search warrant request a public document?  Would a judge not want an answer to the same question before signing it?  Why do you need a search warrant to search a crime scene?  

After it is served and returned it becomes public.

And, actually, you don't need a search warrant in "exigent circumstances," as when a crime scene is "fresh."  I suppose it is on this basis that, in the more usual case "CSi" people are immediately on-scene photographing everything, dusting for prints, etc.  They would not be allowed, under "exigent circumstances," to go rooting around for stuff, that would require a warrant.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

8 minutes ago, South Austin said:

That's quite a stretch.  You don't notice new shit that your wife arranged in the dining room?  Okay, maybe you get a pass for being oblivious, but you didn't walk into somebody else's fucking house first.  And let's you don't notice a new welcome mat at the front door to your house?  Okay, maybe you subconsciously chalk that up to your wife buying a new one and think nothing of it. 

But this cop lived alone, so it's not like she could've assumed her roommate just decided to buy a new welcome mat.  It's different and new feature that's not insignificant.  

The red mat seems irrelevant to me.  Pretty easy to not look at the ground when you're going through the routine motions of walking down a hall and getting your key out.  The "snap out of it" moment should come when your key doesn't work.  When it doesn't work, the first thing you would do is double check the unit number rather than pound on the door.  When you see its wrong, you would sheepishly walk away.

I think the whole "wrong apartment" an even "just got home" part might be made up.

1) Long shifts so she's often tired.

2) Existing noise complaints so he's interrupted her sleep before.

3) Maybe she has a hard time sleeping anyway because of shift work.

So maybe she went home, was actually exhausted, heard him making noise, went upstairs to tell him to be quieter, banged on his door to open up, he opens it and tells her to fuck off, she gets frustrated and shoots him.

[Gene Parmesan 3992]

2 minutes ago, Zepol87 said:

opens door to her bitching about someting, says fuck you it is late leave me alone. Walks away from door knowing it will shut on its own,  she stops it before it closes and bang bang

I think if this guy opened the door to a fully uniformed cop he probably isn't saying fuck off and walking away.  Not that he doesn't have the right to, but that doesn't seem like a reasonable action that anyone is going to buy over her story.  I don't think there is much of a chance prosecutors are going to try to paint that scenario for jurors either, even if he used more polite language.   If this noise complaint thing turns out to be true, and these two have confronted in the past I could see him trying to dismiss her like that though.

[AbeFroman 2107]

46 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

So where was his body found ?  

Right next to all the drugs

[Gene Parmesan 3992]

5 minutes ago, South Austin said:

It makes that scenario seem a hell of a lot more plausible than the story that she mistakenly thought this was her apartment.  But that only further begs the question of why this happened.

If you are going to try to charge her with cold blooded murder you need a lot more evidence than a red mat though.  Like motives and all that stuff.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Gene Parmesan

[Patrick Bateman 3903]

SIAP.... The source tends to be slanted, but there it is....

 

[TwiceHorn 31184]

Just now, Gene Parmesan said:

If you are going to try to charge her with cold blooded murder you need a lot more evidence than a red mat though.

Actually, no you don't really.  Murder in Texas is a real straightforward offense:  killed someone intending to do so or intending to harm them.  Fin. 

It really fits what she did better than any other crime.  She was neither reckless nor negligent in her actions with her weapon.  She may have been reckless or negligent in the actions that led up to the use of her weapon, but that is of no moment under the Texas murder statute.

Her being reasonably mistaken as to the ownership/possession of the apartment, and his right to be there, gives her a "castle doctrine" type self defense claim.  If her mistake was not reasonable, she has no defense.

[bigup2dahorns 3343]

SIAP.... The source tends to be slanted, but there it is....
 

Are these “two different witnesses” the sisters who live in the same apartment?

[Huckleberry 32685]

11 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

If you are going to try to charge her with cold blooded murder you need a lot more evidence than a red mat though.  Like motives and all that stuff.

Man, I also just disagree with you about the doormat. Back when I was an apartment dweller the doormat is the first identifier that you're heading to the correct apartment unit. You can see that before you can see that actual apartment number, and most units had their own doormat and they made sure that they all looked different. To me there is no way you don't notice that red doormat on your way to the apartment. You have to remember that part of her claim is that she was carrying too many other items to see the doormat when she put the items down, so the idea that she could have had her head down fiddling for keys in her pocket and not noticed it is even less credible. If her hands were full then she could not have been digging in her pockets and the only place she could be looking is toward where she was walking or straight down. In either case she sees the red doormat.

Even if you believe that she didn't notice the doormat because she put carried items down on top of it that still doesn't explain how she didn't notice it on her way to the door and in fact makes it less likely that she wouldn't have noticed it while walking toward the door.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Huckleberry

[South Austin 52037]

8 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

If you are going to try to charge her with cold blooded murder you need a lot more evidence than a red mat though.

Shit, people have been convicted on a lot less.  But yeah, I know, cop and all.

[CowboyFred 1151]

3 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Can't say I like that Big Brother like info gathering.

Not really big brother type but more a security thing.  The bank I used to work at I was tasked with creating the key fobs for entering the building during “non-business hours”.  If something turns up missing, it is easy to figure out who entered the building and when.  Then each tenant was free to question their own employee as to the reason for entering or if they took whatever was missing (not insinuating theft or anything but sometime they would move a file or something).

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, CowboyFred said:

Not really big brother type but more a security thing.  The bank I used to work at I was tasked with creating the key fobs for entering the building during “non-business hours”.  If something turns up missing, it is easy to figure out who entered the building and when.  Then each tenant was free to question their own employee as to the reason for entering or if they took whatever was missing (not insinuating theft or anything but sometime they would move a file or something).

That's your business. Nobody needs to know when I come or go from my home.

[gsoda3 3234]

there've been a few places (work, hotels) where i've used RFIDs for extended periods of time.  once i got used to it, i never waited for the light to flash green, i always "swiped" and reached for the doorknob/handle in one motion.  a couple of times the door didn't unlock for whatever reason (more than once it was the wrong door) but it didn't register as "locked" until too late so i pretty much walked into a locked door.  

 

i could see her doing the same-  swipe her key then reach for the doorknob at the same time but it's locked, bj hears the commotion and comes to investigate by opening the door, she gets surprised and goes into authority mode, he slams the door shut, she bangs on it and shouts OPEN UP, and he does eventually but gets capped.  

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

14 minutes ago, AbeFroman said:

Right next to all the drugs

With a generous sprinkling of crack over the body.....

[Gene Parmesan 3992]

 

1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

Man, I also just disagree with you about the doormat. Back when I was an apartment dweller the doormat is the first identifier that you're heading to the correct apartment unit. You can see that before you can see that actual apartment number, and most units had their own doormat and they made sure that they all looked different. To me there is no way you don't notice that red doormat on your way to the apartment. You have to remember that part of her claim is that she was carrying too many other items to see the doormat, so the idea that she could have had her head down and not noticed it is even less credible. If her hands were full then she could not have been digging in her pockets and the only place she could be looking is toward where she was walking or straight down. In either case she sees the red doormat.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just don't think it's enough to swing the reasonableness out of her story at least not to a jury or without more evidence.  They'll have some doctor explaining how the brains tunes shit out and such.

[CowboyFred 1151]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

That's your business. Nobody needs to know when I come or go from my home.

Oh I completely get you.  Mine was a business building so not sure how the apartment complex would monitor it. I’m guessing like someone mentioned up thread about keeping track of maintenance entering different units.

[Gene Parmesan 3992]

11 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Actually, no you don't really.  Murder in Texas is a real straightforward offense:  killed someone intending to do so or intending to harm them.  Fin. 

It really fits what she did better than any other crime.  She was neither reckless nor negligent in her actions with her weapon.  She may have been reckless or negligent in the actions that led up to the use of her weapon, but that is of no moment under the Texas murder statute.

Her being reasonably mistaken as to the ownership/possession of the apartment, and his right to be there, gives her a "castle doctrine" type self defense claim.  If her mistake was not reasonable, she has no defense.

Certainly no lawyer, but I was just assuming there are levels of murder charges and cold blooded would be the harshest in my mind.  That's likely not how it works and I am an idiot.

[VinyVango 677]

I'm not on her side, but it's possible she was drunk / zoned out and trying to get in (trying key, turning the handle unsuccessfully, etc...) and he heard it and surprised the hell out of her by opening the door.  It still doesn't provide any argument for her drawing and shooting.  Perhaps she went off on him verbally/histrionically, maybe drew her gun, and he tried to get her crazy ass out of the door so he could close it and that's when she pulled the trigger.  Her failure was instigating and escalating a situation when she could have called backup and waited outside the door.

I seriously doubt it was premeditated due to prior noise complaints.  (absent her being seriously mentally ill).

She'll probably get manslaughter / criminally negligent homicide.