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Dallas officer kills man after mistaking apartment for her own, police say

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Constant
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First off I’d like to say that I’m heartbroken for the Jean family. As a parent myself, I hope Mr. Jean’s father and mother find some peace in the outcome. They appear to be a wonderful family that ra

SubliminalHorn
SubliminalHorn

Just relax the throat and stay in rhythm 

4th&Five
4th&Five

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31184

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5 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

How would self defense even work in this case?  Texas has the castle doctrine.  She illegally entered his place of residence while he was there.  He has a right to use deadly force against her.  So as a trespasser, what right to self defense does she have if he can legally kill her?  I know there is plenty of gray area between him doing nothing and him killing her, like sexual assault, where she could legitimately need to defend herself even if she was the intruder.  But that isn't the case here.

I'm not quite sure.  One way is, if her mistake was reasonable, then her mistake of fact, that she was in her apartment, gives her the right to use deadly force if she feels threatened.

I don't think it would apply to manslaughter.

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TwiceHorn

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I happened to glance at the door lock video, the one from the inside. 

 

It appears that the door handle itself has no "nightlatch" lock, so the door closes but does not lock behind you.  There's the externally keyed deadbolt, with chip, above that, and an internal only deadbolt above that.  So it is POSSIBLE that the door was closed and "latched" but opened when she turned the handle, even though the key wasn't turning.  Clearly, though, the "chipped," illuminated lock, does not engage automatically.

 

Not advocacy, just an observation.

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hayden_horn

hayden_horn 11360

Posted
Posted
Just now, TwiceHorn said:

I happened to glance at the door lock video, the one from the inside. 

 

It appears that the door handle itself has no "nightlatch" lock, so the door closes but does not lock behind you.  There's the externally keyed deadbolt, with chip, above that, and an internal only deadbolt above that.  So it is POSSIBLE that the door was closed and "latched" but opened when she turned the handle, even though the key wasn't turning.  Clearly, though, the "chipped," illuminated lock, does not engage automatically.

 

Not advocacy, just an observation.

i'm not sure i understand you. in most hotels or other places with return doors opened by keycards or fobs, the door doesn't lock on the inside, and you can open the door without a key to exit, but no one can just waltz in from the outside without a key. in other words, the outer handle is always locked by default. i can't imagine this place being much different. i mean, i suppose it could be, but it seems unlikely.

also,

the room numbers aren't three feet away like you stated upthread:

500E749C00000578-0-image-a-11_1536786917

that's right next to the door. a swift glance to the left would ascertain the room number. 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31184

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8 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Don’t have much to contribute other than to say that this whole situation is one of the most fucked up things I can remember.

Yeah I cant decide if it's more fucked up if it's like she originally said or if she turns out to be a vengeful psychotic bitch cop.  The latter is almost expected.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31184

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Just now, hayden_horn said:

i'm not sure i understand you. in most hotels or other places with return doors opened by keycards or fobs, the door doesn't lock on the inside, and you can open the door without a key to exit, but no one can just waltz in from the outside without a key. in other words, the outer handle is always locked by default. i can't imagine this place being much different. i mean, i suppose it could be, but it seems unlikely.

also,

the room numbers aren't three feet away like you stated upthread:

500E749C00000578-0-image-a-11_1536786917

that's right next to the door. a swift glance to the left would ascertain the room number. 

I still think that is a weird ass place to put an apartment number, but fuck all that.

The locks on these doors, according to the dailymail video, which I assume is accurate, have three things.  The door handle itself, visible above.  An internal/external keyed deadbolt, with a chip and a light, also visible above and an internal only deadbolt, not visible above.

These particular doorhandles do not appear to have a lock:  you can always turn that door handle and the door will open UNLESS the deadbolt above is closed, from the inside or the outside using a chipped key, or if the internal-only deadbolt is thrown.

So, if Jean didnt throw either deadbolt, the door doesn't need to be "ajar" to open, it will open when the doorhandle is turned.  So, I could visualize a scenario in which she, thinking she was entering her apartment, stuck her key in and turned and simultaneously turned the doorhandle.  At that point the door is going to open if neither deadbolt is thrown.

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PilotsError

PilotsError 2280

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"Because you're a punk-ass coward who's been too busy sending deranged texts to city councilmen who won't help you cover up a murder. By the way, I know who was in that second Rangers car on Sunday evening, being escorted to Kaufman along with Guyger: you and two DPA lawyers."

So now we learn that the Texas Rangers escorted Amber Guyger by motorcade from Dallas to Kaufman County to be processed and arraigned in private by a specially retained JP. Included in that motorcade was the head of the cop union along with union lawyers. She was treated more like Princess Diana than an accused Perp. After arraignment and bonding out in less than an hour, her motorcade escorted her back.
Barrett Brown owning the pigs in Dallas.

https://mobile.twitter.com/BarrettBrown_/status/1040685604449779714?s=09

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SameSame

SameSame 1691

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Posted
5 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Where’s this bitch from?  Based on everything I’ve seen so far, I would bet a sizable amount of best buy coupons that it’s somewhere between Mesquite and Shreveport.  She gives off a strong trashy East Texas vibe.

She's from East Arlington, graduated from Sam in '08

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31184

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, PilotsError said:

"Because you're a punk-ass coward who's been too busy sending deranged texts to city councilmen who won't help you cover up a murder. By the way, I know who was in that second Rangers car on Sunday evening, being escorted to Kaufman along with Guyger: you and two DPA lawyers."

So now we learn that the Texas Rangers escorted Amber Guyger by motorcade from Dallas to Kaufman County to be processed and arraigned in private by a specially retained JP. Included in that motorcade was the head of the cop union along with union lawyers. She was treated more like Princess Diana than an accused Perp. After arraignment and bonding out in less than an hour, her motorcade escorted her back.
Barrett Brown owning the pigs in Dallas.

https://mobile.twitter.com/BarrettBrown_/status/1040685604449779714?s=09

Now that is some bullshit right there.  No defense for that.

Who is the "punk ass coward" in question? Oh I see now, the president of the Dallas Police Association. 

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Gene Parmesan

Gene Parmesan 3992

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3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I still think that is a weird ass place to put an apartment number, but fuck all that.

The locks on these doors, according to the dailymail video, which I assume is accurate, have three things.  The door handle itself, visible above.  An internal/external keyed deadbolt, with a chip and a light, also visible above and an internal only deadbolt, not visible above.

These particular doorhandles do not appear to have a lock:  you can always turn that door handle and the door will open UNLESS the deadbolt above is closed, from the inside or the outside using a chipped key, or if the internal-only deadbolt is thrown.

So, if Jean didnt throw either deadbolt, the door doesn't need to be "ajar" to open, it will open when the doorhandle is turned.  So, I could visualize a scenario in which she, thinking she was entering her apartment, stuck her key in and turned and simultaneously turned the doorhandle.  At that point the door is going to open if neither deadbolt is thrown.

I really can't imagine an always locked system in an apartment.  You would be locking yourself out constantly.

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hayden_horn

hayden_horn 11360

Posted
Posted
Just now, conVINCEd said:

Random thought. Is thete any way to figure out how she posted bond?  $300k is a big ask for a cop, and putting up $30k to a bondsman, for most people, would require some financial maneuvering that would be difficult to accomplish on the weekend.

I imagine having the head of the union with you would help. 

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Gene Parmesan

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Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Random thought. Is thete any way to figure out how she posted bond?  $300k is a big ask for a cop, and putting up $30k to a bondsman, for most people, would require some financial maneuvering that would be difficult to accomplish on the weekend.

She's got that covered from last months shakedowns

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

Posted
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15 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

I really can't imagine an always locked system in an apartment.  You would be locking yourself out constantly.

My condo door is always locked. Inside knob never needs a key. Outside always does. Last two apartments were like that too. Never locked myself out. How often do you exit an apartment with no keys?  The only time I do is to take out the trash.

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Gene Parmesan

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1 minute ago, FondrenRoad said:

My condo door is always locked. Inside knob never needs a key. Outside always does. Last two apartments were like that too. Never locked myself out. How often do you exit an apartment with no keys?  The only time I do is to take out the trash.

I exit my house all the time with no keys, but that's a little different as you go in and out of a house more so than an apartment.  I would lock myself out quite a bit under my current mindset, but maybe it would become second nature pretty quick.

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Chewbacca

Chewbacca 7727

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48 minutes ago, AbeFroman said:

And the follow up, nice little exchange

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/mmata7313/status/1040634133075111937

 

 

 

What a pussy.  Calls to complain, says he wants Brown to call him, so Brown calls him and now he's afraid to talk?  Fuck that guy and everyone who is going to cover this shit up.  

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4th and 5

4th and 5 4910

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4 hours ago, Gene Parmesan said:

The apartment #s were shown in videos early on.  To me that's 1 in a million things that should have registered with her between the garage and the door but didn't.  If you believe that her arriving at that door was in fact purely accidental then you pretty much just write those things off as being tuned out.  It happens.  The alternative to think she purposefully went to that door, but there is basically zero evidence of this other than unconfirmed noise complaints.  Now what happened after she arrived at the door is entirely in question.

 

3 hours ago, South Austin said:

That and the welcome mat in front of his door.  How loopy after a long shift at work do you have to be to not even notice that there's now a fucking welcome mat in front of what you think is your door????

 

3 hours ago, Gene Parmesan said:

There are a thousand things that could have registered in her mind but didn't.  Your brain tunes out a lot of crap when you go into routine mode even after only a 5 hour shift of sitting on your ass.  Doesn't excuse her killing, but it reconciles how she wound up at the door fairly simply.

 

3 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Perhaps it can explain showing up at the door. The problem with this theory, though, is that zoning out like that requires that your routine is being repeated. That's how people leave their kids in a car, because once they get on the drive to work their brain checks out as they're in a routine. If the baby doesn't cry, it becomes dangerous if they're tired, etc.

But once she's at the door her routine was broken. There was a red doormat. The light that turns green when she inserts her key turns red instead. There were almost literally multiple red flags that should have snapped her out of it.

 

3 hours ago, Reagan1k said:

In my opinion, it's not that far fetched.....I have stuff magically appear in my house from time to time and find out it was there for days or weeks before I paid attention.

Not defending her, but my own experience says that when I'm in a routine, I miss stuff.  My wife redecorated some of our dining room once and had a bet with the decorator how long it would take me to notice.....Wife won with the over at 7 days.

She quite easily have been staring at her InstaBook account on the phone and just going through the motions.

I am in no way defending her at all and this is tragic....I'm just thinking out load as to how it even plausible.

 

Perception is huge. I happen to know quite a bit about it due to pedestrian/auto death cases. Vision is being able to see an object, like the eye is capable of detecting an object, clearly she could have seen the red mat, or the red light. Detection sets the bounds of the possible but does not mean conscious perception. When a person is on alert and knows exactly what a target looks like and when or where it will appear, the difference between sensation and perception can be very small. In the real world, there may be situations where a person fails to perceive a detectable object for very good reasons. Attention is “gatekeeper” or filter that lies between sensation and perception and it is a limited resource. The more you focus your vision, the more likely objects in the periphery are not noticed. People look where they expect to find info, or for a particular object they are looking for. Attention is tuned to the object's expected location or properties like color, shape, or motion. You are more likely to see what you are looking for, or where you were looking for it, and less likely to see things that are "irrelevant" in your mind. I think the case can be made she is not looking for an apartment number, at all. She "knows" where she is. She does not concern herself with door mat trying to enter her place with a handful of items. Doors have mats, the brain expects as much and it is not "out of place" in a way that it might be conspicuous enough to enter her perception, if she even bothered to look down. Perception is the process of organizing and attaching meaning to sensations that have penetrated the attentional filter. Expectancy is a major component of perception. You point your eyes where you expect to find info. You see things you expect to see better or faster than the unexpected, or things that are out of place. The number on the door is of no import to her. There is a mat in front of a door, right where the brain would expect one to be, and may not have entered her attention.

 
3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Actually, no you don't really.  Murder in Texas is a real straightforward offense:  killed someone intending to do so or intending to harm them.  Fin. 

It really fits what she did better than any other crime.  She was neither reckless nor negligent in her actions with her weapon.  She may have been reckless or negligent in the actions that led up to the use of her weapon, but that is of no moment under the Texas murder statute.

Her being reasonably mistaken as to the ownership/possession of the apartment, and his right to be there, gives her a "castle doctrine" type self defense claim.  If her mistake was not reasonable, she has no defense.

That's correct. However, if she entered the apartment at all, that is a criminal trespass and while she may get a jury instruction on self defense, she will not get the benefit of the "Castle Doctrine" jury instructions for "force used is presumed to be reasonable" and "no duty to retreat" under 9.32(b) and (c)  

Edited by 4th and 5
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mdmost

mdmost 42775

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2 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

What a pussy.  Calls to complain, says he wants Brown to call him, so Brown calls him and now he's afraid to talk?  Fuck that guy and everyone who is going to cover this shit up.  

Mata has been on the Ticket here in Dallas before when they've had cop roundtables and he talks in typical blue wall speak. "Bad cops" are just a few "bad apples" and how citizens should obey the commands a cop is giving them or they wouldn't get shot. 

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4th and 5

4th and 5 4910

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2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Self-defense in Texas mostly assumes that the force used in defending oneself was intentional, both as to the act and as to the harm or potential harm inflicted.

Manslaughter is "recklessly" causing a death, which is behavior worse than simple carelessness.  I'm not really sure you can shoehorn self defense into a manslaughter charge.

Exactly, which is why this is a murder not a manslaughter case, with the defenses of self defense and mistake of fact. A jury might buy her defense. The might not and give her 5, the minimum, because they think she fucked up but is not a bad person.

Manslaughter mens rea is recklessness, meaning she didn't intend to shoot him, but she did (TWICE). How queer is it to claim self defense, an intentional act, to a charge alleging a culpable mental state of recklessness? 

 

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SDG

SDG 3319

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Posted
2 hours ago, Gene Parmesan said:

Even if the facts match her story it's still a crime.  She'll likely be convicted but the sentencing will be light.  The Balch Springs guy only got 15 years and his actions were far more heinous.

How so?  He shot a kid driving away; she shot a guy in his own home. Are you not familiar with our constitution?  

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gsoda3

gsoda3 3234

Posted
Posted
57 minutes ago, SDG said:

How so?  He shot a kid driving away; she shot a guy in his own home. Are you not familiar with our constitution?  

 

guyger:  there's a small possibility she could have been confused and genuinely thought he was an intruder.  she might have been making decisions based on those assumptions. 

balch springs:  he shot into the car driving away from him. he knew what he was doing. there's absolutely no confusion on his part in what was going on.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31184

Posted
Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, TXSooner518 said:

I see the video that the door closes automatically but would be interested to know if it LOCKS automatically. Haven't seen a video showing that.

I don't believe it does.  There are two deadbolts above the door handle, but nothing (no key, no little nightlatch knob) on the door handle itself.

Video from the inside, showing the various locks.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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0xdeadbeef

0xdeadbeef 1622

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Posted

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/09/14/dallas-police-face-ire-over-portrayal-man-shot-by-officer.html

Quote

Court documents obtained Friday revealed that an investigator from the Dallas County district attorney's office seized the electronic door lock to Guyger's apartment and downloaded data from the lock.

 

....downloaded data from the lock...interesting...I assume they did the same for the victim's lock.

 

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TXSooner518

TXSooner518 2432

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Posted
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/09/14/dallas-police-face-ire-over-portrayal-man-shot-by-officer.html
Court documents obtained Friday revealed that an investigator from the Dallas County district attorney's office seized the electronic door lock to Guyger's apartment and downloaded data from the lock.
 
....downloaded data from the lock...interesting...I assume they did the same for the victim's lock.
 


Yep. Saw the search warrants posted for both locks.
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