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Dallas officer kills man after mistaking apartment for her own, police say

'stache

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jkates

jkates 315

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59 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

it's the red doormat that's the kicker here. even if you zombie your way to the door, the bright red fucking doormat should register. even if it doesn't visually, because of the mobile in her hand or whatever, she had to STEP ON IT to open the door.

Man, I couldn't disagree more. I would imagine that we've had multiple doormats at our house over the years. I don't know if I've ever noticed them. My wife will change them for various reasons - seasonal, holiday, dirty/worn out, and I won't notice. 

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First off I’d like to say that I’m heartbroken for the Jean family. As a parent myself, I hope Mr. Jean’s father and mother find some peace in the outcome. They appear to be a wonderful family that ra

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Huckleberry

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1 minute ago, jkates said:

Man, I couldn't disagree more. I would imagine that we've had multiple doormats at our house over the years. I don't know if I've ever noticed them. My wife will change them for various reasons - seasonal, holiday, dirty/worn out, and I won't notice. 

Didn't she live by herself? I'd think you notice if your welcome mat kept changing when you don't have anyone living with you.

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Skipper

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4 minutes ago, jkates said:

Man, I couldn't disagree more. I would imagine that we've had multiple doormats at our house over the years. I don't know if I've ever noticed them. My wife will change them for various reasons - seasonal, holiday, dirty/worn out, and I won't notice. 

Agree.  How I'm wired as well.  My wife will completely rearrange furniture, etc. and I won't notice a damn thing until it's pointed out.  I pretty much have tunnel vision as it relates to whatever I'm focusing on and in that scenario I could easily see myself being on auto-pilot and walking right into the wrong apartment.  Of course, I have no doubt others are wired completely different and can't fathom how someone couldn't notice a red door mat.     You are probably going to have a mix of people on the jury as well.  That's why I think the winning argument is that once she was inside the dept, her actions weren't reasonable, particularly considering she was a trained LEO.

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jkates

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Didn't she live by herself? I'd think you notice if your welcome mat kept changing when you don't have anyone living with you.

You've missed my point. I don't notice it AT ALL. I can't recall noticing welcome mats when I lived by myself either. I don't find it a strong point against the cop.


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CHEF DIESEL

CHEF DIESEL 126

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Looking at the bodycam footage it was obvious to me that the victim was laying on his couch, watching TV eating a bowl of ice cream when that officer barged in. The pillow, blanket on the couch and a half melted bowl of ice cream with a spoon stuck in it tell a sad tale. Her shots were off too. One hit the ceiling and the other shot according to the prosecutor was aimed down as if she were standing and he was low on the ground.

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hopkinsnhorns

hopkinsnhorns 533

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8 minutes ago, jkates said:


You've missed my point. I don't notice it AT ALL. I can't recall noticing welcome mats when I lived by myself either. I don't find it a strong point against the cop.


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It amazes me how some people can float through life so blissfully unaware of their surroundings.  My wife is like that too.  I swear she thinks I'm Sherlock Holmes with an uncanny ability to deduce things, but really, I'm just aware of my surroundings and able to connect the dots.  Doormat would have been a dead giveaway for me, even after a very long day at work.

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TXSooner518

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2 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

i don't think the doormat is that big of an issue to reconcile-  she saw the door ajar a ways off and focused on it.  her adrenaline was pumping and she had tunnel vision.  i could see myself missing the doormat too.

I don't think anyone says the door was visibly ajar. The door appears to have been resting against the doorjamb just not quiiiiiiite latched. If the door was sitting open, even more idiotic for her to just go in guns blazing when she has the advantage of knowing something is up, a gun, and a police radio.

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El Diablo

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2 hours ago, 'stache said:

How is the red floormat not the end of the case? How can you reasonably believe you're at your apartment when there is a bright red floormat at this apartment and you don't have one? And if there is testimony about people getting confused alot by the parking garage, that just supports the unreasonableness of not taking  a split second to ensure you're on the right floor when you see something out of sorts. I get confused by my parking garage all the time and make an effort to try and remember where I parked. Sometimes I forget, but I know the entire time it's a possibility.

I can see something similar coming out of wife's mouth even though she lives in a single family dwelling. ;) 

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TXSooner518

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7 minutes ago, hopkinsnhorns said:

Judge not allowing questioning about the irregularities in how Guyger was treated by police after the shooting (DPA president directing the in-car video recording to be halted, her being removed from the squad vehicle, etc.).

Doesn't on its face seem to be relevant to the act, but I think it is relevant since defense is clearly arguing that Guyger shouldn't be held to a "police standard", but she was sure held to it in how she was treated in the aftermath.

Flip the roles, Botham walks into her apartment and shoots her where she stands. 0.00000% he isn't immediately booked on murder charges.

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Huckleberry

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38 minutes ago, jkates said:


You've missed my point. I don't notice it AT ALL. I can't recall noticing welcome mats when I lived by myself either. I don't find it a strong point against the cop.


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No, I got your point, I just think it's bad and also wrong. You are conditioned not to notice specifically because, as you said, your wife is constantly changing things around your house such as your doormat. If that did not happen because you lived alone then you would be far likelier to notice when something changed.

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hayden_horn

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Just now, Huckleberry said:

No, I got your point, I just think it's bad and also wrong. You are conditioned not to notice specifically because, as you said, your wife is constantly changing things around your house such as your doormat. If that did not happen because you lived alone then you would be far likelier to notice when something changed.

also, let's not overlook that cops are supposed to have a keen sense of perception and awareness, since a lot of their job requires observation.

maybe before pulling out the gun take a second look at your surroundings? i dunno, just spitballing here.

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TXSooner518

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This is why I don’t understand how she is considered to be on duty or even acting in an official capacity. She wasn’t investigating any crime, if anything SHE was committing the crime by uninvitedly entering Jean’s residence. Am I looking at it too black and white here or am I too simple to understand?


Her argument is she thought she was encountering a burglary in progress. DPD policy indicates she should be following agency protocols in that event.
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TwiceHorn

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18 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

No, I got your point, I just think it's bad and also wrong. You are conditioned not to notice specifically because, as you said, your wife is constantly changing things around your house such as your doormat. If that did not happen because you lived alone then you would be far likelier to notice when something changed.

There really is no "wrong" here.  It's all just opinions and assholes and shit.

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BigDHornfan

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2 minutes ago, thestud said:

 


This is why I don’t understand how she is considered to be on duty or even acting in an official capacity. She wasn’t investigating any crime, if anything SHE was committing the crime by uninvitedly entering Jean’s residence. Am I looking at it too black and white here or am I too simple to understand?

 

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Sandman

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22 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

also, let's not overlook that cops are supposed to have a keen sense of perception and awareness, since a lot of their job requires observation.

maybe before pulling out the gun take a second look at your surroundings? i dunno, just spitballing here.

Just like all teachers are kind and helpful, all nurses are warm and caring, right? You honestly think they look for "keen perception" when hiring cops? How many awful stories have we seen on here and on the news about how a LOT of cops suck huge balls at their job? You and I might THINK the screening process should look for traits such as those but it does not.

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TwiceHorn

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6 minutes ago, thestud said:

 


This is why I don’t understand how she is considered to be on duty or even acting in an official capacity. She wasn’t investigating any crime, if anything SHE was committing the crime by uninvitedly entering Jean’s residence. Am I looking at it too black and white here or am I too simple to understand?

 

From the civil case perspective, there may be enough "on-duty" factors to trigger qualified immunity for "official action."  Regardless, the City isn't on the hook unless they volunteer to be or Texas Municipal League doesn't cover it. Or if the plaintiff succeeds on a Monell claim, which is conceivable but doubtful.

As far as paying the bills, she sure as fuck isn't.  And DPA has been pretty heavily involved from jump, so I would bet my fur that DPA is.

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jkates

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40 minutes ago, hopkinsnhorns said:

It amazes me how some people can float through life so blissfully unaware of their surroundings.  My wife is like that too.  I swear she thinks I'm Sherlock Holmes with an uncanny ability to deduce things, but really, I'm just aware of my surroundings and able to connect the dots.  Doormat would have been a dead giveaway for me, even after a very long day at work.

It's a weird blind spot. I can watch all 22 guys on a football field and know who subbed in/out between each play. But I won't notice a doormat or a new flower planted in the front bed. 

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Huckleberry

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21 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

There really is no "wrong" here.  It's all just opinions and assholes and shit.

Agreed, but it does matter in the sense that it's not relevant to the case at hand. The fact that people who live with a male roommate would not have been surprised by a male in their apartment when they got home should not be held against Guyger in this case. She lives alone, so she should not be expected to react like someone who lives with someone else.

Exact same reason why the fact that people who live with someone else aren't surprised by changes to their welcome mat or to the interior decorating of their home should not be used as a defense of Guyger. Completely different situation and she shouldn't be expected to react like someone who lives with someone else.

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immortal13

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1 hour ago, hopkinsnhorns said:

It amazes me how some people can float through life so blissfully unaware of their surroundings.  My wife is like that too.  I swear she thinks I'm Sherlock Holmes with an uncanny ability to deduce things, but really, I'm just aware of my surroundings and able to connect the dots.  Doormat would have been a dead giveaway for me, even after a very long day at work.

Elementary!

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TwiceHorn

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Just now, Huckleberry said:

Agreed, but it does matter in the sense that it's not relevant to the case at hand. The fact that people who live with a male roommate would not have been surprised by a male in their apartment when they got home should not be held against Guyger in this case. She lives alone, so she should not be expected to react like someone who lives with someone else.

Exact same reason why the fact that people who live with someone else aren't surprised by changes to their welcome mat or to the interior decorating of their home should not be used as a defense of Guyger. Completely different situation and she shouldn't be expected to react like someone who lives with someone else.

Right, you have a good argument that undermines the other argument, which is also a good one.  No accounting for people's obliviousness, though.  Some people are just shit-for-brains.  Guyger shows a lot of signs of that.

I thought I saw somewhere yesterday that a body cam (from the responders, maybe), showed the red mat very clearly.

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hookem17

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Did no one else ever walked into the wrong apartment? I think I’ve done it twice. Both times I was on the wrong floor and went to the apartment directly above/below mine. On both occasions, it took about half a second before I realized I was in the wrong place and shut the door. 

Back when I lived in apartments I was also bad about locking my door and had people accidentally come in. One lady screamed because she was surprised. No one shot me. No one hung out for more than a second. 

Edit: I may even have been horny on one of the occasions. 

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RPM

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3 minutes ago, TXSooner518 said:

The testimony was she had left her bodycam at the station, which seems perfectly normal and reasonable. The bodycam footage discussed is from the responding officers.

Yeah, I think it would be a huge red flag if officers took their body cam home.

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Guest Lobo

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Wow, a 12-month toxicology report turn-around time.  We are living in the future!

One question about that bodycam footage of the responding officers.  How did they find the apartment so quickly?  If she was so sure she was in her own apartment and so shaken up after the shooting that she couldn't render aide or recall details...who precisely articulated the exact location of the victim's body so effectively that everybody ran to the exact spot with zero hesitation?  Who exactly told them where exactly to go and why hasn't that audio been released?  "Just come inside to the unit with the red doormat in front of it!?!  Nevermind how I know!"  

And finally, what I really want to say is...let's all be honest.  We're almost all of us on this thread, operating in an echo chamber.  We know deep down inside, but can't prove...that there's no way in the world this murder happens if the guy inside that unit is White or the person "accidentally" entering the unit is not a Cop.  It goes from 50/50 to .0000001% of happening.  We can't prove that in a court of law, but we all know as adults in Texas---that's the reality.  Having admitted that, and getting outside our bullshit blinders...what is the rest of the country saying about this?  There has to be countless message boards where they're just tearing apart the prosecutor and the black family and just looking for ways to celebrate this Officer.  What are y'all seeing outside this thread.......out there in la-la land?  I'm genuinlely curious.  I wouldn't know where to start looking but I'm getting very curious.  

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TXSooner518

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The report was that she realized once she turned on the lights and called 911 that she wasn't in her apartment, and she went out and got the apartment number. It wasn't stated if she needed to borrow Botham's stepstool so she could read the apartment number, as they are 9-10 feet off the ground at minimum apparently.

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kevwun

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15 minutes ago, TXSooner518 said:

The testimony was she had left her bodycam at the station, which seems perfectly normal and reasonable. The bodycam footage discussed is from the responding officers.

Yeah, at least some of them/ maybe most have to be plugged in to a cradle to recharge and upload the video files.  I would that it's common for most departments to have the officers leave them at the station if they have that type.

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'stache

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29 minutes ago, hookem17 said:

Did no one else ever walked into the wrong apartment? I think I’ve done it twice. Both times I was on the wrong floor and went to the apartment directly above/below mine. On both occasions, it took about half a second before I realized I was in the wrong place and shut the door. 

Back when I lived in apartments I was also bad about locking my door and had people accidentally come in. One lady screamed because she was surprised. No one shot me. No one hung out for more than a second. 

Edit: I may even have been horny on one of the occasions. 

Did any of them have a bright red floor mat at the door which differs significantly from your apartment? A few times I have accidentally entered another persons car because it was identical make, model, and color to mine and the door was unlocked. I figured out my mistake pretty quick.  I've never made that mistake with an identical make and model but a different color. It is ridiculous to believe someone would make that mistake. 

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Guest Lobo

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8 minutes ago, TXSooner518 said:

The report was that she realized once she turned on the lights and called 911 that she wasn't in her apartment, and she went out and got the apartment number. It wasn't stated if she needed to borrow Botham's stepstool so she could read the apartment number, as they are 9-10 feet off the ground at minimum apparently.

That makes sense...calm and cool and short entering the apartment?  Nope can't possibly read the unit number, only Gheorghe Muresan can possibly see those things.  But frantically shaking after killing someone with all the anxiety and confusion surrounding an event like that...Yep, can totally that information with crystal detail under duress.  

And yeah, let there at least be some positive take-away when she's inevitably acquitted of any wrongdoing and promoted to Lieutenant.......let's at least acknowledge that sometimes when you plug your bodycam into the station house charger/upload device...it doesn't just have to magically erase everything that happened that day with anybody darker than Edgar Winter.  That sometimes technology can operate effectively and at least give some informative background color to a situation that occurred prior.  It doesn't have to be all software malfunctions and IA coverups every single night guys!  

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Chewbacca

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1 minute ago, huge said:

They said it was clean.  Posted above.

I thought for sure she had been drinking before the shooting.  That's how she reacts when dead sober and 'exhausted' from working 40 whole hours in the previous 4 days?  Fuck me.  Is there any verdict that could come down (short of murder) that would keep her from ever being a cop again?

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Brisketexan

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15 minutes ago, Lobo said:

We know deep down inside, but can't prove...that there's no way in the world this murder happens if the guy inside that unit is White or the person "accidentally" entering the unit is not a Cop.  It goes from 50/50 to .0000001% of happening.  We can't prove that in a court of law, but we all know as adults in Texas---that's the reality. 

That's the truth, and the whole truth, right there.  Her immediate reaction of "this guy must be a dangerous intruder!" would NOT have been the reaction if he was a generic white guy.  And it wouldn't have been that reaction if she wasn't a cop who is constantly at war with the whole world out to kill her and she just wants to get home safe to her family and you don't know how hard it is out there we could die any second.

It was murder.

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TwiceHorn

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Whoever said this is a really conflicting case nailed it.

I'm ordinarily very skeptical of the state in criminal prosecutions and want every I dotted and T crossed.  And I want the jury to be scrupulous and thoughtful and carefully find the facts and apply the law to them.  I don't want juries to decide based on white cop/black victim, or simply "senseless death, someone's gotta pay."

But a state actor is on trial here by the state.  It's a regular ourobouros or mobius band.

Then you have the closeness of the legal and factual issues.

Vexing.  I'm terribly vexed.  I'm vaklepmft.

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