Dallas officer kills man after mistaking apartment for her own, police say

[MissingInAction 25554]

She isn't making it out of prison. Mark it down. 

[Pancho 46267]

I didn't follow this trial as I knew I would be disappointed in the outcome.

But for those who did--did the jury come back with the recommended sentencing before or after the brother gave her a hug?

[Underdog 29162]

10 hours ago, Skipper said:

Anyone expecting anything commentary remotely resembling nuanced thought or analysis from Vic Mackey should know better, LOL

 

9 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Thoughtful analysis from Vic?

 

Fat chance....

 

Thought Vic had done quite well in this thread up to this point.  

[Gene Parmesan 4064]

7 minutes ago, Pancho said:

I didn't follow this trial as I knew I would be disappointed in the outcome.

But for those who did--did the jury come back with the recommended sentencing before or after the brother gave her a hug?

Before. 

[Zepol87 9340]

1 hour ago, Fondren & Main said:

Are you saying that because other people have been treated unjustly that we should keep doing that?  If that’s what you’re saying then I sort of have to disagree with you there.

So 10 years for murder is justice? Is that what you are saying?

[Johnny Sack 8397]

16 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

The solution is not to ratchet up everyone's sentence, it's to ratchet them all down.

Agreed in part.  I do not agree we should ratchet "all" down.  We should decriminalize all drugs and release/fully restore the civil rights of all non-violent drug offenders.  I would also make property crimes with no violence lean more towards community service with a condition of parole being making progress towards full restitution.

The people I really, really want locked up are those who are both violent and who demonstrate a pattern of violence with evidence of a propensity for future violence.  That really is not that high of a percentage of our current population.  For those assholes, I'd lock them up longer than we currently do.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

16 hours ago, hopkinsnhorns said:

And I don't think you would find one person in this thread that believes there is justice in those sentences.  Blame Nixon's war on drugs.  Blame Reagan and Clinton for amping up that war and mandatory minimums.

And the Congressional Black Caucus who was fully onboard with the War on Drugs because the crack epidemic was just annihilating their communities.  It was a bipartisan fuckup and overreaction.

Obama and Trump have actually taken steps to fix this cluster fuck.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

16 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'll be the first to tell you no one is doing 10 years for possession of weed.  Possession of 100 lbs of weed, that they are planning to sell along with a couple kilos each of coke, heroin, and meth, yeah.

The drug defendants in jail are serious criminals most of the time.

We still put em away too long.

That's correct

[Johnny Sack 8397]

11 hours ago, Zepol87 said:

If she killed Todd in Frisco bet she would have gotten more than 10 years for a lesser charge

By a jury that was all blacks and Hispanics and just two whites?

[Js1 87174]

13 minutes ago, Zepol87 said:

So 10 years for murder is justice? Is that what you are saying?

This wasn't murder like road rage or something.  She busted into this dude's private dwelling and murdered him.

['stache 22131]

Forgiveness and compassion are a great storyline. The problem isn't that in a vacuum, or even the 10 year sentence. The problem is how the system treats this white woman cop vs. everyone else, particularly minority drug offenders. How many kids who made a mistake getting caught up in peer pressure with the wrong crowd and get hammered by the system are getting hugs from the judge and sympathy from the general public (i.e., white people, especially in a conservative place like Texas). If ten years for this crime is just, then we need to be pardoning and exonerating thousands of people currently locked up for far lesser offenses. This case isn't going to do anything to fix that problem. The inequity is the problem, as it has been, and as it appears will always be. 

[hopkinsnhorns 533]

15 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

And the Congressional Black Caucus who was fully onboard with the War on Drugs because the crack epidemic was just annihilating their communities.  It was a bipartisan fuckup and overreaction.

Obama and Trump have actually taken steps to fix this cluster fuck.

I wish we could go back in time and inform the CBC that it was actually the CIA that was bringing in the tons and tons of cocaine to fund their guerrilla wars in Central/South America...

[Johnny Sack 8397]

The criminal justice system is extremely biased towards women in general.

Women are rarely shot and killed by cops.

Women get much lighter sentences for the same crimes as men, especially if they are at all attractive or relatable to the jury.

['stache 22131]

I guess I'll also be that asshole. Too many people on social media are focusing on the "christian" aspect of the brothers actions. One need not be a christian or even a person of religious faith to be capable of incredible acts of grace and forgiveness. This seems like an incredible family. I am certain that they would be the same good people if they had been born into another faith tradition, or no faith tradition at all. I'll leave that alone now, just felt like getting that off my chest.

[hopkinsnhorns 533]

12 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

I'll be fucking damned if I ever go up to someone who murdered a family member or friend of mine and give them a hug. They can fucking rot in prison and get shanked for all I give a fuck. That was fucking pathetic. You are basically telling the world it is ok for people to intrude into people's homes and kill people. That you will get a fucking hug out of it. That shit pisses me off. How can anyone be moved by that? The mom was rejoicing after being found guilty and the brother goes up and gives her a hug? That doesn't take character or bravery. That is stupidity. Spare me the religious angle of why. This murdering piece of shit entered your brother's home and shot him dead, didn't even give a shit to even try and revive him or check. And you want to hug her and say she deserves no time? All in the name of religion. Wow. So he is giving anyone out there an invitation to walk into his home or family/friends and shoot them dead and he will give us a hug. Good job guy. Way to show the world your brother's life means zero to you. That woman does not give a shit about you, your family or your deceased brother. She is only upset about the consequences of her actions, not the action itself, as most criminals are. Good job bowing down to the fucking cops. You think her family would hug your brother or you if you went into her home and shot her? Nope. Your victory would be avoiding the needle. But hey, you just told the world your brother's life means nada. And quit putting words in his mouth saying this is what he wanted. He would want to be living right now, not deceased.

This whole ordeal pisses me off. The guilty verdict was just a bone being thrown. That means zero now with this 10yr sentence and she will be out before this year's recruiting class graduates. I don't think the jury ever planned on being harsh. They wanted to play both sides of the fence. Convict but go light on her punishment. Dog and pony show is all it was. Had the roles been reversed and he killed her in her home, the jury would send his ass away for his natural life remaining. 

Of all the posters I thought would be satisfied with this verdict, I thought you'd be near the top.  Hell, she probably won't be older than 40 when she gets out.  We know she has daddy issues, low self-esteem, sends nudes, and puts out to men she shouldn't.  She's right in your wheelhouse, especially if she adds a few lbs while in the clink.

Edited October 3, 2019 by hopkinsnhorns

[Brisketexan 106874]

15 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

 

I did, and it's plenty fair.  I made the call at the time based on history and known evidence....damned glad to be wrong.  Not the first time for me, won't be the last (I mean, I'm SURE all of y'all just KNEW Texas was gonna beat the Huskers in the first Big 12 championship, right?)

 

Very much agreed.  Our social trend is so much towards separation, and villification.  Seeing an outward example of kindness, forgiveness, and acknowledgment that we all live in community with each other -- including with the people who have wronged us -- is really big.

It reminds me of the aftermath of the Amish school shooting back in 2006.  https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14900930

The Amish family members of actual shooting victims not only forgave the shooter, but some of them even attended his funeral.  They offered love and assistance to his widow and his family.  They walked the fucking walk.  It was one of the most powerful displays of Christ-like behavior I've ever seen, and it sticks with me to this day.

A lot of us are angry at law enforcement.  And we have every right to be.  But what do we really WANT?  We want them to do their jobs.  We want them to do it with kindness and human decency, with awareness and respect for the gravity of their power, and the decisions they may be called upon to make.  We actually DO want them to "make it home safely."  And we want them to deliberately balance the life and safety of others when they make life-changing decisions.  We want them to be like Deputy Dahliwal...and we want him and the rest of them to go home to their family at the end of their shift.  I don't hate cops.  I hate what they've allowed themselves to become, and I hate that so many of them resist reform.  

Do we want Amber Guyger to suffer now?  Maybe.   Maybe somewhat.  Because it does send a powerful cautionary message.  But what would we RATHER have had happen? 

I think most of us would prefer to have seen her grow up to be a decent woman with compassion, not fear masked with callous bravado.  We'd rather have seen her be capable of doing her job in a cool and professional manner.  That way, even if she did goof in showing up at the wrong apartment, upon hearing movement inside, she would have backed up, and assessed the situation....looked at the doormat....looked at the apartment number....and realized it wasn't her own apartment.  Maybe she even would have been a good neighbor, knocking on the door to tell her downstairs neighbor that "man, I am really tired, and found myself in front of the wrong door, but I saw that it was ajar, so I wanted to tell you so you could close it and be safe.  Have a nice evening."

I'm sick of people being so fragile and hostile that they resort to violence and hurting others.  I'm sick of people being hurt and killed because violence is such a common reaction among people we should be able to trust.  I'm sick of society HAVING to call for justice, and strong sentences to serve as a warning.  I'm sick of losing good people like Botham Jean.  I'm sick of people like Amber Guyger never developing into a good person, for whatever reasons may have led her down the wrong path.  I'd like a society where Botham got to enjoy his ice cream and go to bed, and a good cop named Amber got to have a laugh about how tired she was, and get a good night's sleep.

We can and should exact our punishment.  But we must also figure out a way to heal who we are.  Because who we are right now hurts a shitload of people, for no damned good reason at all.

Not quoting myself for vanity here, but maybe as an apology, or at least as a result of some listening and introspection.

This may come as a surprise to some of y'all (the ledge and all that), but I very much want to be a hopeful person.  I want to see the good in things.  To the point of naive folly, at times.  My sentiments about the power of faith, and turning the other cheek are real.

But then, you look at it from the perspective of a people who have been called on, time and time again, to forgive and turn the other cheek.  You realize that centuries of doing so, centuries of being the people who had to forgive our country for the original sin of slavery, who had to forgive it for Jim Crow, who have to forgive it for lynchings, who have to forgive it for racial profiling, who have to forgive it for disparate treatment by the justice system right now....well, every time they turn the other cheek, they just get another bruise on their already battered cheeks.  

Turning the other cheek doesn't mean shit if we the people don't stop slapping the shit out of the next exposed minority cheek.

An apology of mere sentiment is no apology at all.  

Quote

The most compelling apologies include six distinct elements:

Expression of regret

Explanation of what went wrong

Acknowledgment of responsibility

Declaration of repentance

Offer of repair

Request for forgiveness

WITHOUT ASKING FOR IT, we the people - including our agent, Amber Guyger - were granted forgiveness.  That leaves five elements above it.  At times, we get the first element right -- I think that Amber Guyger probably got there.  But the next four....shit.

A significant member of our American family is telling us with persuasive clarity that they still haven't gotten much of anything with respect to elements 2-5.  We should listen to them.  And then, we need to do the work.  Listening to the remarks of the DPD chief yesterday, she hinted at trying to fulfill those elements, at least with respect to this instance (which, hopefully, will reverberate through the system).  I am hopeful that she meant it, and that she'll follow through.

So, to the extent that my desire to see a rosy path forward distracted me, and anyone else, from the listening, empathy, and hard work that remains to be done, I apologize.

[housious 468]

 

22 minutes ago, Zepol87 said:

So 10 years for murder is justice? Is that what you are saying?

Are you mad at the mostly black jury that convicted and sentenced her? 

['stache 22131]

18 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

And the Congressional Black Caucus who was fully onboard with the War on Drugs because the crack epidemic was just annihilating their communities.  It was a bipartisan fuckup and overreaction.

Obama and Trump have actually taken steps to fix this cluster fuck.

Oklahoma incarcerates twice as many people as the national average, mostly on drug and non-violent offenses. The new Republican governor has promised to fix this. The people voted on and passed a referendum to drop many felony drug charges to misdemeanors and to make it retroactive. I have seen very little movement though. My guess is that they will drag their feet, then get cold feet about releasing a bunch of "thugs" because many of them won't "look" like good innocent people (cough, cough).

[Trey3216 15452]

5 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Forgiveness and compassion are a great storyline. The problem isn't that in a vacuum, or even the 10 year sentence. The problem is how the system treats this white woman cop vs. everyone else, particularly minority drug offenders. How many kids who made a mistake getting caught up in peer pressure with the wrong crowd and get hammered by the system are getting hugs from the judge and sympathy from the general public (i.e., white people, especially in a conservative place like Texas). If ten years for this crime is just, then we need to be pardoning and exonerating thousands of people currently locked up for far lesser offenses. This case isn't going to do anything to fix that problem. The inequity is the problem, as it has been, and as it appears will always be. 

Love him or hate him, the president has actually been trying to get a ton of non-violent offenders out of prison for the past 2.5 years.  I haven't seen the numbers lately, but I know it's a pretty significant quantity have been released from prison and put on a path of success.  I don't like the guy, but I do appreciate that effort.  

[TXSooner518 2455]

25 minutes ago, Zepol87 said:

So 10 years for murder is justice? Is that what you are saying?

You never answered my questions earlier. If you think this is a 25-40 year case, what cases would fall in the 5-15 year range for murder, in your opinion?

How much $$ would you have to be paid to start a 10 year prison sentence today?

What is an appropriate sentence, in your opinion, for someone who is smashed drunk, goes the wrong way on the interstate and kills someone?

For someone who looks down and reads a text, and in that moment, rear-ends a car, killing two kids in the back seat?

For someone who is in a hurry, guns it through a red light, t-bones and kills someone?

For someone who holds a drunk girl down at a party and forcibly rapes her?

['stache 22131]

4 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

Love him or hate him, the president has actually been trying to get a ton of non-violent offenders out of prison for the past 2.5 years.  I haven't seen the numbers lately, but I know it's a pretty significant quantity have been released from prison and put on a path of success.  I don't like the guy, but I do appreciate that effort.  

I haven't read much about this, but there have been efforts for at least a decade to get serious, so it's not like it just started 2.5 years ago or that it was some big initiative of his. He has enough "others" to vilify currently to fire up his party's voters. I guarantee you if he needs another dog whistle he wouldn't hesitate for a second to call out release of "dangerous" drug offenders and pin it on the opposition, and it would work. I'm hopeful though that reforms are indeed going on quietly and can avoid being cloaked. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by 'stache

[Zepol87 9340]

7 minutes ago, TXSooner518 said:

You never answered my questions earlier. If you think this is a 25-40 year case, what cases would fall in the 5-15 year range for murder, in your opinion?

How much $$ would you have to be paid to start a 10 year prison sentence today?

What is an appropriate sentence, in your opinion, for someone who is smashed drunk, goes the wrong way on the interstate and kills someone?

For someone who looks down and reads a text, and in that moment, rear-ends a car, killing two kids in the back seat?

For someone who is in a hurry, guns it through a red light, t-bones and kills someone?

For someone who holds a drunk girl down at a party and forcibly rapes her?

WTF? I don't have answers to you amazing scenarios here, but what I do know is that walking into a house and shooting a man on his couch and not even attempt to save his life afterwards is worth more than 10 years. Whcih 10 years won't be served anyway but that is another discussion

Edited October 3, 2019 by Zepol87

[Trey3216 15452]

5 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I guess I'll also be that asshole. Too many people on social media are focusing on the "christian" aspect of the brothers actions. One need not be a christian or even a person of religious faith to be capable of incredible acts of grace and forgiveness. This seems like an incredible family. I am certain that they would be the same good people if they had been born into another faith tradition, or no faith tradition at all. I'll leave that alone now, just felt like getting that off my chest.

While your comment is true, Christians worldwide have been chastised (and rightfully so on many accords) for their actions or inaction since He was on the cross.  A lot of people are focusing on it solely for the fact that, as Christians, this is exactly how we were taught and instructed to act.  It is a model of reflection and I think it gave a lot of people pause to examine themselves and ask: "AM I doing enough?  AM I a compassionate and forgiving Christian as Christ instructed?"   

Yes, you don't have to be a Christian to be compassionate, or even religious.  However, it was a beautiful lesson in humility, love, and compassion.  It's a model of our Model.  

[Zepol87 9340]

9 minutes ago, housious said:

 

Are you mad at the mostly black jury that convicted and sentenced her? 

Yes I think the jury was light on the sentence. No I don't give a shit about their skin color and why should you? 

[CHEF DIESEL 126]

I'm OK with the 10 year sentence for murder. Wish it were more but 10 years should be punishment that could rehabilitate Guyger. Hope it also sends a message to law enforcement that they are not above the law. Often civilian police officers do not consider themselves civilians. They think of themselves as virtue signaling gods. Hope that throws a cold bucket of water on them.

I am a lifelong resident of Dallas, born and raised. Dallas is not the city I grew up in nor is it the city it was 20 years ago. It is a cesspool of liberal hate and is quickly becoming the Detroit of the South with very poor leadership. Everyone involved in this whole arrest, indictment and conviction process on administrative, elected and judicial levels was African American. Every single one. Asst Police Chief that handled the intake, Police Chief, Mayor, District Attorney and Judge. If African Americans in Dallas think they are not getting a fair shake in justice they should look first into the poor leadership issues in their own community. It ain't the white folk running things.

[hopkinsnhorns 533]

4 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

While your comment is true, Christians worldwide have been chastised (and rightfully so on many accords) for their actions or inaction since He was on the cross.  A lot of people are focusing on it solely for the fact that, as Christians, this is exactly how we were taught and instructed to act.  It is a model of reflection and I think it gave a lot of people pause to examine themselves and ask: "AM I doing enough?  AM I a compassionate and forgiving Christian as Christ instructed?"   

Yes, you don't have to be a Christian to be compassionate, or even religious.  However, it was a beautiful lesson in humility, love, and compassion.  It's a model of our Model.  

Yeah, if that one act didn't spawn at least a moment on introspection for self-identified Christians, then I don't know why they would even consider themselves Christians in the first place.

Edited October 3, 2019 by hopkinsnhorns
added quote

[TXSooner518 2455]

11 minutes ago, Zepol87 said:

WTF? I don't have answers to you amazing scenarios here, but what I do know is that walking into a house and shooting a man on his couch and not even attempt to save his life afterwards is worth more than 10 years. 

Well if you are so willing to speak with such authority and conviction for what is appropriate for a given offense, you should be able to place that offense within the scope of the rest of the criminal justice system.

Reggie Stephey drove drunk, killed 3 girls, and subjected Jacqui Saburido to some of the worst torture alive. He got less than 10 years. 

If you give Guyger 40 years for a 90 second flash of horrendous decisionmaking, what the fuck do you give her if she plots, premeditates, and kills Sex Cop's wife so she can have him to herself? What do you give her if she was sick of Botham's noise upstairs so she comes upstairs and shoots him in cold blood?

It's horrendous that Botham was killed, but you still have to consider the totality of the circumstances, and also what the purpose of prison is, and it isn't (or shouldn't be) just to satisfy reactionary bloodthirst and vengeance. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by TXSooner518

[housious 468]

1 minute ago, Zepol87 said:

Yes I think the jury was light on the sentence. No I don't give a shit about their skin color and why should you? 

You were making it a racial issue. That's why I asked. 

[Trey3216 15452]

6 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I haven't read much about this, but there have been efforts for at least a decade to get serious, so it's not like it just started 2.5 years ago or that it was some big initiative of his. He has enough "others" to vilify currently to fire up his party's voters. I guarantee you if he needs another dog whistle he wouldn't hesitate for a second to call out release of "dangerous" drug offenders and pin it on the opposition, and it would work. I'm hopeful though that reforms are indeed going on quietly and can avoid being cloaked. 

I didn't say it was only going on for the last 2.5 years, but he initiate the First Step Act, which is a bit more official then just working to try and make it happen.  That's all I was getting at. 

 

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/congress/article223414935.html

[TwiceHorn 32071]

31 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

That's correct

There is one exception to this, that I think you can confirm.  The FBI/DEA/"feds" are very fond of arresting pretty low-level people in the drug distribution chain, many of whom have firearms on their premises, in hopes of getting them to flip on higher-ups by threatening mandatory minimum sentences and jumbo enhancements for a firearm being anywhere in the vicinity of drugs and drug transactions.  These folks don't get bigtime lawyers, don't have enough information or are afraid to flip (for good reason), and often wind up getting pretty stout sentences (10++ years).

These people aren't blameless by any stretch.  They're criminals and deserve some punishment.  But not what they're getting.  And these are the people that are filling federal prisons.

You don't have to cut back on the El Chapos and those types to empty out federal prisons.

Edited October 3, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[Skipper 6411]

4 minutes ago, TXSooner518 said:

Well if you are so willing to speak with such authority and conviction for what is appropriate for a given offense, you should be able to place that offense within the scope of the rest of the criminal justice system.

Reggie Stephey drove drunk, killed 3 girls, and subjected Jacqui Saburido to some of the worst torture alive. He got less than 10 years. 

If you give Guyger 40 years for a 90 second flash of horrendous decisionmaking, what the fuck do you give her if she plots, premeditates, and kills Sex Cop's wife so she can have him to yourself? What do you give her if she was sick of Botham's noise upstairs so she comes upstairs and shoots him in cold blood?

It's horrendous that Botham was killed, but you still have to consider the totality of the circumstances, and also what the purpose of prison is, and it isn't (or shouldn't be) just to satisfy reactionary bloodthirst and vengeance. 

Yeah, this like a game thread on the Monday after a loss.  Lot's of second guessing from their keyboards.  I'm betting some of the people "outraged" here would end up making the same decision if they were actually in that jury room responsible for deciding an actual human beings fate.

[formermav43 4621]

21 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I guess I'll also be that asshole. Too many people on social media are focusing on the "christian" aspect of the brothers actions. One need not be a christian or even a person of religious faith to be capable of incredible acts of grace and forgiveness. This seems like an incredible family. I am certain that they would be the same good people if they had been born into another faith tradition, or no faith tradition at all. I'll leave that alone now, just felt like getting that off my chest.

Maybe, maybe not. But it’s their faith that explicitly motivates them. I think you should take that for what it’s worth rather than resenting it.

[TwiceHorn 32071]

3 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

I didn't say it was only going on for the last 2.5 years, but he initiate the First Step Act, which is a bit more official then just working to try and make it happen.  That's all I was getting at. 

 

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/congress/article223414935.html

I'm not anxious to give credit to Trump for the First Step Act.  But, weirdly, it was a very GOP-driven (and Koch brothers) initiative that had languished throughout the Obama administration (no doubt partly because they didn't want him taking any credit for it).

There's also evidence that the shitgibbon is mad at Kush (who helped drive it) because he doesn't now have all the black vote because of it.

It's also a real half-measure.  The usual-suspect tough on crime assholes like Cotton and Kennedy and some others finished gutting it on the way to passage.  The iteration that Cornyn (what?) introduced that had previously had support from the likes of Grassley and Lee and others was a bit more effective.

[Zepol87 9340]

11 minutes ago, TXSooner518 said:

Well if you are so willing to speak with such authority and conviction for what is appropriate for a given offense, you should be able to place that offense within the scope of the rest of the criminal justice system.

Reggie Stephey drove drunk, killed 3 girls, and subjected Jacqui Saburido to some of the worst torture alive. He got less than 10 years. 

If you give Guyger 40 years for a 90 second flash of horrendous decisionmaking, what the fuck do you give her if she plots, premeditates, and kills Sex Cop's wife so she can have him to yourself? What do you give her if she was sick of Botham's noise upstairs so she comes upstairs and shoots him in cold blood?

It's horrendous that Botham was killed, but you still have to consider the totality of the circumstances, and also what the purpose of prison is, and it isn't (or shouldn't be) just to satisfy reactionary bloodthirst and vengeance. 

I don't know anything about Reggie Stephey but less than 10 years seems wrong there as well. 

Quite the jump from 10 to 40  but whatever it doesn't matter. 10 is what she got for a murdering a man, so nothing to be done about it now. You and others believe this is fair and I don't.

Different strokes and all that. No worries

Edited October 3, 2019 by Zepol87

[Trey3216 15452]

5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm not anxious to give credit to Trump for the First Step Act.  But, weirdly, it was a very GOP-driven (and Koch brothers) initiative that had languished throughout the Obama administration (no doubt partly because they didn't want him taking any credit for it).

There's also evidence that the shitgibbon is mad at Kush (who helped drive it) because he doesn't now have all the black vote because of it.

It's also a real half-measure.  The usual-suspect tough on crime assholes like Cotton and Kennedy and some others finished gutting it on the way to passage.  The iteration that Cornyn (what?) introduced that had previously had support from the likes of Grassley and Lee and others was a bit more effective.

And that’s totally fair.  Like I said, it’s still at least a stepping stone in the correct direction.  

[TwiceHorn 32071]

I think just like there is a growing consensus that the criminal justice system is unjust to police and to people of color and poor people, there's a growing consensus that sentences are overdone.

This probably reflects both of those.

I rejoice in it.  You have to start somewhere.

[TwiceHorn 32071]

2 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

And that’s totally fair.  Like I said, it’s still at least a stepping stone in the correct direction.  

Yep, as Prof. Berman over at the sentencing blog says, even this little half measure can sometimes provoke bigger change.  There are a lot of aspects of the criminal justice system, especially the corrections end, that are "off the books," meaning not the subject of legislation, but of policy and procedure that can be changed without legislative action.  They go in different directions sort of "led" by legislation.  

['stache 22131]

14 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

Maybe, maybe not. But it’s their faith that explicitly motivates them. I think you should take that for what it’s worth rather than resenting it.

I don't resent it, any path to that type of mindset is a positive. My observation (and maybe frustration, if you can even call it that) is from social media observers who seem to be overly focused on that aspect of the story. Much of it comes off as self-indulgent from christians who too often press the idea of the superiority of their belief system. Again, a broader rant for another day, just an observation from this particular case.

[Pato del Muerto 53451]

Apparently in Texas you have

negligent homicide

manslaughter

murder

capital murder

with modifiers when appropriate. 

Sentencing should follow, and as discussed plenty here murder was her appropriate charge and what she was convicted of. So the sentence should be appropriate for the conviction. 

If the argument is that most sentences are too heavy and amber’s is fair, then we need to be modifying a bunch of sentences and guidelines. 

[formermav43 4621]

3 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I don't resent it, any path to that type of mindset is a positive. My observation (and maybe frustration, if you can even call it that) is from social media observers who seem to be overly focused on that aspect of the story. Much of it comes off as self-indulgent from christians who too often press the idea of the superiority of their belief system. Again, a broader rant for another day, just an observation from this particular case.

I don’t think they can be overly focused on it when the Jean family is so outspoken about their faith; he even said what would be best is for her to give her life to Christ. This is an explicitly Christian story, whether or not they would have been that way if they weren’t Christian or whether or not there are other, similar stories not involving Christians. You can’t separate that out here-Botham’s own life should make that clear.

If anything, it seems you’re the one self-indulgently trying to press the superiority of your belief system in this instance. Take this story for what it is.

[Brisketexan 106874]

2 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I don't resent it, any path to that type of mindset is a positive. My observation (and maybe frustration, if you can even call it that) is from social media observers who seem to be overly focused on that aspect of the story. Much of it comes off as self-indulgent from christians who too often press the idea of the superiority of their belief system. Again, a broader rant for another day, just an observation from this particular case.

Well, there's also an element of perception, FROM Christians, that it's nice to see people who wear their faith actually practicing it.  We see a shitload of "Christians" whose outward faith is mostly "fuck you, I got mine."  It's refreshing to see someone actually walk the walk.  It's not exclusive to Christians -- quite the opposite -- we're happy to see that there actually ARE still Christians who practice it.

Oh, and as to my earlier point about half-measures, and society taking for granted and abusing the grace and forgiveness offered by the Jean family, here's a great piece on the matter: https://karyncarlo.net/2019/10/03/dear-white-people-about-botham-jean-forgiveness-justice-and-cheap-grace/?fbclid=IwAR1JfLHH94O8_k-pIWf5-RX7MEp0MkX9paHa5yRZchwNTxo2HLnxNIlV9S0

Quote

Dear White People: About Botham Jean, Forgiveness, Justice, and Cheap Grace ---

Yesterday we watched the sentencing of a white woman, a former cop, convicted of murdering a black man named Botham Jean in his own apartment, unarmed, eating ice cream. She received the very minimal sentence of 10 years following which the brother of the murder victim gave her a big hug and said he forgave her. Many Christians applaud that hug saying it was an extraordinary act of grace on his part. Having never walked in his shoes I will not judge him. However as a white woman, also a former cop, and Christian theologian I will judge the way so many of us in the white community are so quick to applaud black people for forgiving white murderers. We did it following the Charleston nine and here we go again.

We are quick to point to the way in which Jesus forgave his own killers even as he suffered on the cross and we hold that up as the model for victims to adhere to today. But wait a minute. Is that fair? As we usually do with Bible stories we cast ourselves in the role of Jesus but really white people in the U.S. are the Romans in this story. We are the crucifiers not the crucified, the defenders of brutal empire who perhaps feel a little guilty at the scene of yet another lynching taking place in our name. As such we hear “father forgive them” as good news. Even though we have killed Jesus and brutalized his people we need not really fear hell. Even the victim himself does not hold us accountable. We are innocent. We did not know what we were doing. Good news right? Wrong.

Forgiveness without repentance is what theologian Dietrich Bonhoefer, quoting Adam Clayton Powell, called cheap grace. It lets us believe we are off the hook for our evil without demanding any real change on our part. In the case of the murder of Botham Jean cheap grace lets us white people maintain our sense of innocence and goodness without first facing up to the role we all play, knowingly or not, in maintaining systemic racism. In this case it allows us to avoid looking at the particularly brutal history of black men and white women. We don’t have to think about the thousands of lynchings, unjust crucifixions, that happened in our country due to black men being unjustly accused of raping white women. We don’t have to think about the way in which white women to this day are seen as fragile and innocent (particularly if they are or make themselves blond) while black men are perceived as threatening and dangerous even when they are in their own homes eating ice cream. In other words we do not need to see let alone repent of our sins. But is that the gospel? Is that grace?

I say no. Let’s look at the “father forgive them” scenario again. Jesus of Nazareth who lived as an oppressed Jew under Roman occupation is, like many before him, being crucified as an enemy of state. (Side note- All of you chomping at the bit to inform me that Jesus’s crucifixion/lynching was “not political” because he was “dying for our sins” need to hold off until you read some of my upcoming posts about the racist roots of Anselmian substitutionary atonement theory. All of you who likewise want to blame “the Jews” need a lesson in the history of Christian anti-Semitism. All of you who similarly want to say “we are all equally guilty as sinners regardless of race” need to read a history book. Have I covered all the loopholes? If not I will get back to them. Today we are talking history.) So Jesus has been persecuted by Romans all of his life for preaching good news for the impoverished and oppressed people of Rome now hangs on one of thousands of crosses (which Dr. James Cone rightly identified as lynching trees) designed to support Roman supremacy. Notice that in every one of the passion narratives he has very little to say to his oppressors. At this point he is done talking to them. Notice also that Jesus does not forgive them. He asks God to do so. Notice furthermore that he essentially writes them off as ignorant “for they know not what they do.”

Is that what we, as white citizens of a white supremacist nation want for ourselves? Will we be satisfied by a cheap grace that comes from being written off as ignorant? Will that restore the humanity we have lost to the false and demonic systems of racism and white supremacy? Will enforced (and it is enforced) forgiveness coming from black victims of racist violence be enough to save our souls?

I am going with no on this. I don’t know about you but I want more for myself. When I see a white woman, entrusted to “protect and serve” all people who nontheless harbored racist ideas as evidenced by her texts to co-workers, who illegally entered a black man’s castle, shot him in cold blood, told a nonsense story, played Goldilocks on the stand, and got away with the most minimum sentence, I want to do better than cling to the “but his brother forgave her bless his heart” defense.

I want to hold her and I both accountable, her for murder and me for whatever way I have, knowingly or not, contributed to the systemic racism that caused the murder. I reject cheap grace. I need justice to be done. I need the gift of true repentance for my own sins of racism. I need real soul salvation. I refuse to be written off as one of those who did not know what I was doing. I am better than that and so are you.

To accept, and then discard with no further work, forgiveness and grace, is to double our sins -- Christian sins, social sins, all the sins.

I don't want to see another Jean family hug and forgive a white cop.  If we accept a system where that will inevitably happen again, then we are rejecting our responsibility, and rejecting the grace and forgiveness we've been given.

[TwiceHorn 32071]

One thing that gets short-shrift in sentencing analyses is the growing body of evidence that even pretty hardcore criminals can "age out" of rampant criminal behavior.  If someone gets released in their 40s, or later, recidivism goes down substantially.

This is one reason that I think 20-25 years should be a sort of practical maximum for even serious, but short of completely heinous, crimes.

Of course, the big caveat on all this is that if a person is released at any age with no skills into an environment of poverty and criminality, all bets are off.

['stache 22131]

1 minute ago, formermav43 said:

I don’t think they can be overly focused on it when the Jean family is so outspoken about their faith; he even said what would be best is for her to give her life to Christ. This is an explicitly Christian story, whether or not they would have been that way if they weren’t Christian or whether or not there are other, similar stories not involving Christians. You can’t separate that out here-Botham’s own life should make that clear.

If anything, it seems you’re the one self-indulgently trying to press the superiority of your belief system in this instance. Take this story for what it is.

I disagree. It's certainly part of the story, and again, I'm fine with it being part of the story. But the bigger story is the overwhelming grace and humility and ability to forgive. For him it comes from his faith, and that is fine. I claim no superiority about belief or non-belief. I only get irked by those who claim otherwise, and I assure you it's not coming from me.

 

[formermav43 4621]

3 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I disagree. It's certainly part of the story, and again, I'm fine with it being part of the story. But the bigger story is the overwhelming grace and humility and ability to forgive. For him it comes from his faith, and that is fine.I claim no superiority about belief or non-belief. I only get irked by those who claim otherwise, and I assure you it's not coming from me.

 

The bold is the point. That is where it’s coming from for him. You actually don’t seem fine with that.

Edited October 3, 2019 by formermav43

['stache 22131]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Well, there's also an element of perception, FROM Christians, that it's nice to see people who wear their faith actually practicing it.  We see a shitload of "Christians" whose outward faith is mostly "fuck you, I got mine."  It's refreshing to see someone actually walk the walk.  It's not exclusive to Christians -- quite the opposite -- we're happy to see that there actually ARE still Christians who practice it.

Oh, and as to my earlier point about half-measures, and society taking for granted and abusing the grace and forgiveness offered by the Jean family, here's a great piece on the matter: https://karyncarlo.net/2019/10/03/dear-white-people-about-botham-jean-forgiveness-justice-and-cheap-grace/?fbclid=IwAR1JfLHH94O8_k-pIWf5-RX7MEp0MkX9paHa5yRZchwNTxo2HLnxNIlV9S0

To accept, and then discard with no further work, forgiveness and grace, is to double our sins -- Christian sins, social sins, all the sins.

I don't want to see another Jean family hug and forgive a white cop.  If we accept a system where that will inevitably happen again, then we are rejecting our responsibility, and rejecting the grace and forgiveness we've been given.

I get that. It's hard these days to understand that there are still some who practice in a meaningful way. I know from your posting history that you and your wife are on the good side, and I appreciate that.

['stache 22131]

2 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

The bold is the point. That is where it’s coming from for him. You actually don’t seem fine with that.

You're either not listening or don't want to listen. Again, it's not about him. I understand its sincere and I appreciate it. I have seen many outside observers on social media going a direction with the story I don't agree with. If you still think I'm criticizing him or his belief system or all people of his faith, then lets just agree to disagree.

Edited October 3, 2019 by 'stache

[formermav43 4621]

Just now, 'stache said:

You're either not listening or don't want to listen. Again, it's not about him. I understand its sincere and I appreciate it. I have seen many outside observers on social media going a direction with the story I don't agree with. If you still think I'm criticism him or his belief system, then lets just agree to disagree.

I feel like you’re the one not listening. I understand you’re not criticizing him personally. But it is his belief system that motivates him, and that resonates with his fellow believers. That’s key to this story-you cannot separate it out and make it generic. In wishing that Christians would not emphasize the explicitly Christian nature of his actions, you ARE criticizing their belief system and asserting that yours is superior, whether you recognize it or not. That’s the last I’ll say too.

[TXSooner518 2455]

17 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Apparently in Texas you have

negligent homicide

manslaughter

murder

capital murder

with modifiers when appropriate. 

Sentencing should follow, and as discussed plenty here murder was her appropriate charge and what she was convicted of. So the sentence should be appropriate for the conviction. 

If the argument is that most sentences are too heavy and amber’s is fair, then we need to be modifying a bunch of sentences and guidelines. 

Right, and manslaughter can be 2-20. Murder can be 5-99. What that indicates is that some offenses that are "murder" are worth 5 years and some are worth 99. I think, and I think most agree, that in the overall scope of offenses that fall into the "murder" bucket, this is pretty far to the lower end of the "awfulness" spectrum. Obviously, anything that is murder will be "awful", that's why it's a first degree felony. But if you were going to compare this case to another murder conviction drawn at random, chances are very high the other case would be more heinous.

[XYZ 2154]

Seems disingenuous to me to attempt to free a bunch of people who are imprisoned for drug offenses without also decriminalizing drugs and regulating the manufacture and distribution of them.

[hopkinsnhorns 533]

Amen.