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The Air Raid and the Longhorns

Disco Missile

By Disco Missile
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JBJ

JBJ 3649

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On 9/16/2018 at 11:05 AM, Walden Ponderer said:

Briles was not air raid. The veer and shoot is primarily a run first, everybody go deep, play action pass and RPO offense. Air Raid is far more dink & dunk.

Take an Air Raid, eliminate vertical option routes, shallow meshes, wide line splits, zone rushing attack, and pass-first play calling.

Replace those with quick-option routes, RPOs and play action, wide slot splits, veer-option, and run-first play calling.

Can't you see the similarlities?  Both use shotgun spread formations.  We clearly need to be in a shotgun spread.

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elguapo

elguapo 4583

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28 minutes ago, elguapo said:

We should either hire away Gundy's OC, or find out who Gundy would hire at OC if his guy left and hire him.

For real though, check out the run of OCs Gundy has had.

2010: Holgo

2011-2012: Todd Monken (you may be familiar with the work he's doing with the Tampa Bay Bucs this season)

2013-now: Mike Yurcich (will likely get HC offers with a good season)

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4044

Posted
Posted
On 9/16/2018 at 11:05 AM, Walden Ponderer said:

Briles was not air raid. The veer and shoot is primarily a run first, everybody go deep, play action pass and RPO offense. Air Raid is far more dink & dunk.

Yeah, this. And to the person who thought he was being clever when he said that Briles was part of the Leach tree because he was an assistant under him, Manny Matsakis was there for that exact time period (2000-2002). Being part of the so-called Leach Tree does not necessarily mean you run the Air Raid.

If you just go to the Air Raid wikipedia page, you'll see an impressive list of names, but some of the names are only there because they worked with Mumme and/or Leach at one point in their careers. I'm gonna change the order to clump all the No's together.

Mark Mangino-Yes. Air Raid with an added emphasis on the run game
Ruffin McNeil-Yes. He's just a DC, but yeah he brought Riley to OC his offense during his failed tenure at ECU.
Lincoln Riley-Big Yes. He has an added emphasis on the run game, but I imagine Leach would run that offense the same way if he had that talent pool.
Sonny Cumbie-Big Yes.
Graham Harrell-Yes
Seth Littrell-See Harrell
Eric Morris-Yes
Josh Heupel-Yes
Kliff Kingsbury-Uh Yes
Mike Jinks-Yes
Chris Hatcher-I've never seen them but he has ties to Valdosta so I'm guessing Yes?
Dana Holgorsen-Yes
Sonny Dykes-Yes
Jay Norvell-Meh. Depends on where he is.
Clay McGuire-He's never been in an HC or OC role so I dunno why he's included
Dave Aranda-See McGuire
Jeff Casteel-Again, see McGuire
Matt Mumme-What do you think?
Kevin Sumlin-No. He's gotten away from it going back to Case Keenum. His offense has a lot more in common with that Mike Gundy RPO stuff than Mumme/Leach. Honestly I think the only reason he's listed there is because he coached under Stoops at one point.
Art Briles-No. Veer & Shoot. Completely different offense, and here's how you can tell: Mike Leach would never run it...ever.
Greg McMackin-No. When he took over at Hawai'i, they essentially kept running June Jones' offense.
Manny Matsakis-Hell No. Triple Shoot. It's basically the Flexbone with a Mouse Davis play action passing game. Insane system that works wonders when you have a true dual threat QB and 2 hybrid WR/RB types
Tony Franklin-No. The System
Robert Anae-Fuck no. Did anyone remember those BYU teams Texas played in 2013-2014? That was him! And they ran the ball 132 times in those two games.

So between 1/4th to nearly half those guys (depending on how you'd classify those guys that don't have any decision making power in terms of offensive scheme or have had ambiguous careers a la Norvell) don't even belong there in terms of running the Air Raid, and Art Briles is definitely one of them. And he didn't "use that system to make his own," either. His offense was established before he barely knew who the fuck Mike Leach was.

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CashMcCoy

CashMcCoy 3199

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On 9/16/2018 at 10:00 PM, El Squared said:

The inconvenient and basic truth, but everyone keeps searching for other rationalizations.

Outside  of freak talent acquisitions, like VY, I think Bama has proved this point over and over.

Alabama's starting O line has a composite average of 36. That is freak talent acquisition.

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4044

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, tbone_ said:

Can someone explain, in layman’s terms, the difference between the air raid vs the veer and shoot vs the whatever else offense we haven’t been able to stop in forever?

Air Raid: run game is largely based on audibles, it's largely based on draw/trap/shovel (anything that defeats an overzealous pass rush), passing game is the basis of the offense and incorporates a lot of screens and quick release plays (swing, slant, etc) to mitigate the rush and replace the running game.

V&S: Run game is the basis has a lot of attacking blocking schemes (as opposed to draw/trap/shovel which is based on what used to be called catch-blocking), has a lot of nuances, all of the runs have a play-action package, the run sets up the pass (i.e. the QB is usually afforded extra time assuming the run game succeeds) and the depths of the routes are generally longer.

Super laymen's terms? 

Air Raid: Pass to set up the run
V&S: Run to set up the pass

Edited by hpslugga
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oSuJeff97

oSuJeff97 3435

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On 9/17/2018 at 2:17 PM, elguapo said:

For real though, check out the run of OCs Gundy has had.

2010: Holgo

2011-2012: Todd Monken (you may be familiar with the work he's doing with the Tampa Bay Bucs this season)

2013-now: Mike Yurcich (will likely get HC offers with a good season)

Before Holgy it was Larry Fedora, who was also excellent and went on to be HC at Southern Miss then North Carolina.  He's kind of struggling this year but has been pretty good otherwise.

Oh and you can add OSU in 2011 to the list of schools who won a conference title running an Air Raid variant.  

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JBJ

JBJ 3649

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, tbone_ said:

Can someone explain, in layman’s terms, the difference between the air raid vs the veer and shoot vs the whatever else offense we haven’t been able to stop in forever?

Layman's terms:

Air Raid is a passing offense that smashes together what's good about Run-and-Shoot and West Coast passing attacks, but abandons the run game.

Most "Air Raids" mentioned on this thread are only West Coast passing attacks.

Veer-and-Shoot is triple-option football with a spread twist.  It's the wishbone, but delete the wingback and move the tailback into the slot.

Edited by JBJ
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oSuJeff97

oSuJeff97 3435

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16 hours ago, JBJ said:

Layman's terms:

Air Raid is a passing offense that smashes together what's good about Run-and-Shoot and West Coast passing attacks, but abandons the run game.

 

I mean... I feel like that defines the Air Raid as run by Hal Mumme/Mike Leach in the 1990s/early 2000s.  But it's evolved over and over again from that original base so much that I don't think that description applies any more.

Dana Holgorsen is without question an "Air Raid" guy, but he was incorporating much more running game in his version way back in 2007-09 with Houston, and then especially at OSU in 2010 when he and Gundy added the "diamond" or inverted wishbone formation with an emphasis on a power run version of the Air Raid.

I don't think anyone in the country outside of Mike Leach at WSU is running anything close to the "pure" Air Raid that Leach was doing at Kentucky, OU and then at Texas Tech in the early 2000s.

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JBJ

JBJ 3649

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, oSuJeff97 said:

I mean... I feel like that defines the Air Raid as run by Hal Mumme/Mike Leach in the 1990s/early 2000s.  But it's evolved over and over again from that original base so much that I don't think that description applies any more.

Dana Holgorsen is without question an "Air Raid" guy, but he was incorporating much more running game in his version way back in 2007-09 with Houston, and then especially at OSU in 2010 when he and Gundy added the "diamond" or inverted wishbone formation with an emphasis on a power run version of the Air Raid.

I don't think anyone in the country outside of Mike Leach at WSU is running anything close to the "pure" Air Raid that Leach was doing at Kentucky, OU and then at Texas Tech in the early 2000s.

Here's the problem we are going to run into: there are few uniquely Air Raid concepts, and the ones that are - is what Holgerson abandoned to build his run attack.

Air Raid is married to a Run&Shoot passing attack (4V, Y-Cross, Choice).  The only thing making Air Raid distinguishable is that you've created a "running" game by packaging them with WCO concepts underneath and bringing the WCO action right off the LOS (Shallow Cross, Slants, Slant-Stick).

If you abandon what makes Air Raid uniquely Air Raid, it is just a Run&Shoot passing attack with a power run game.  No one ever accused June Jones of being Air Raid.

Edited by JBJ
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Panama Red

Panama Red 63

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OU also won a Natty running it - Leach had left, and Mangino was the OC in 2000.  Riley runs more than passes.  Fun to watch when you are a Sooner fan!  I prefer you guys keep doing what you are doing...

True but it wasn’t the offense that won OU that championship in 2000, it was the defense. How many points did they score in the champ game??
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ztejas

ztejas 43266

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13 minutes ago, Panama Red said:


True but it wasn’t the offense that won OU that championship in 2000, it was the defense. How many points did they score in the champ game??

Which championship game? There are several to choose from in the storied history of Chokelahoma.

There's the one where they scored 13 points, the one where they scored 14 points, the one where they scored 19 points, or the one where they scored 14 points. 

Three of those are losses, I'll let you guess which ones. 

Shit - forgot last year where - oh wait, they didn't make the title game last year because they choked away a 2 score lead in the 2nd half. I almost forgot. 

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Frank Gallagher

Frank Gallagher 97

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46 minutes ago, tbone_ said:

Ok so next question: WTF is Herman trying to run? In layman’s terms again please.

Bingo, this is the fundamental question.  What is the central theme of the UT offense?

After this question is addressed, we can move on to the hilarity of Beck's "stream of consciousness" play calling.

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4044

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4 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

During the year they put up big offensive numbers. You can’t look at just the championship game.

 

Yep. That argument you addressed is nothing but a canard that was offered by those resisting the reality that the spread was taking over college football. "Oh but they only scored 13 points!!! That doesn't count!!!!" Ok, so where was Virginia Tech when that was going on? Where was Nebraska? Where were those other "pro-style" or "smashmouth teams" the night OU beat FSU? Their seasons were finished and they played in lesser bowls. It's just textbook straw-grasping and goalpost-moving. In fact, the same people were making that argument against the entirety of the spread in general...then Texas won it all in 2005...and then Florida in 2006 and 2008...and then Auburn in 2010...and then Florida State in 2013...and then every single team that's participated in the CFP (sans Michigan State that one time Bama beat them 38-0...cute) has not only run its primary offense out of some sort of spread concept, but they also go HUNH, and then finally those blowhards had to confine their bullshit to just the Air Raid because those guys have been on a dry spell since 2000. 

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