The Drums Pron Thread

[rungeflash 322]

2 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

I cut the port in my daughter's current kick drum by hand.  I will not be making that mistake again.  The Renowns will get the tool + protecting ring.  Since we're swapping out the batter head for the Aquarian Super Kick II (already here), I suspect we'll try the unported reso head first, maybe with interior damping, just to see how it sounds.

It sounds good with the factory reso. After installing this single ply, no ring control ambassador, it is quite a bit subdued in comparison….but it’s a nice, round, warm tone about it. The factory head has a thick coating plus a thickish control ring underneath. I never tried it ported, however. There is not much beater sound to it. I’m getting quite a bit more beat/click with the ambassador reso. I’m still using the factory batter (PS3 clear I believe). No slam patch. Felt end on the beater.

[jimmyjazz 45889]

1 minute ago, rungeflash said:

It sounds good with the factory reso. After installing this single ply, no ring control ambassador, it is quite a bit subdued in comparison….but it’s a nice, round, warm tone about it. The factory head has a thick coating plus a thickish control ring underneath. I never tried it ported, however. There is not much beater sound to it. I’m getting quite a bit more beat/click with the ambassador reso. I’m still using the factory batter (PS3 clear I believe). No slam patch. Felt end on the beater.

Ah.  Well, she wants beef in the bass.  Specifically dislikes what she said were other drummers' "clicky" kick drum sounds.  What reso would you recommend in conjunction with that Super Kick II?

[rungeflash 322]

3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Ah.  Well, she wants beef in the bass.  Specifically dislikes what she said were other drummers' "clicky" kick drum sounds.  What reso would you recommend in conjunction with that Super Kick II?

I read the specs on that superkick 2……I’d say the factory gretsch reso might just be the ticket for the sound she prefers. 

[ohchaucer 1443]

I’d agree. That SKii will sound big and fat with just about anything. 

[jimmyjazz 45889]

Thanks, y'all.  NOT spending more money . . . what a concept.

[ohchaucer 1443]

Don’t get me wrong, you should definitely buy (and post pics of) more things, just not necessarily a new drumhead.

[jimmyjazz 45889]

4 hours ago, ohchaucer said:

Don’t get me wrong, you should definitely buy (and post pics of) more things, just not necessarily a new drumhead.

I am almost patiently waiting for the Gretsch delivery van.

[sidis 9823]

So I did like a 2.5 hour session yesterday because my wife and kids were busy with some stuff out of the house all afternoon. I spent the first 2:15 playing along with a variety of pop and indie rock songs with fairly basic 4/4 time and some easier fills. Reasonably slow tempos like something in the way, etc. 

Towards the end I was like “fuck yeah man, I got this stuff. I’m making really good progress and don’t just sound like complete beginner shit.”

so I decided I was ready to take on Joe Morello and Take Five by Brubeck. Gave up after about 90 seconds and thought seriously about selling the kit for ten minutes. I don’t know what it takes to get to a point where you can jump to true polyrhythm playing but I’m pretty sure I never will. 

[ohchaucer 1443]

so I decided I was ready to take on Joe Morello and Take Five by Brubeck. Gave up after about 90 seconds and thought seriously about selling the kit for ten minutes. I don’t know what it takes to get to a point where you can jump to true polyrhythm playing but I’m pretty sure I never will. 

Holy shit, was not expecting that! That is an unfathomable leap. Take it easy on yourself!

You’ll get to wherever you want to go but it takes a lot of time and energy. Good to have a goal. For me years ago, I just wanted to master the Purdie shuffle. For as simple as it is, it was daunting. But I’ve been playing it 20+ years and STILL can’t make it sound quite exactly like the big guy could.

The one thing I’ll say if you want to get from A to B to L, M, N, O, P…. Rudiments. Learn them and practice them every damn day. Hands and feet. Don’t have to know them all but the main six, master them. Everything else gets a lot easier from there.

It’s a fun ass journey though.

[jimmyjazz 45889]

10 minutes ago, ohchaucer said:

The one thing I’ll say if you want to get from A to B to L, M, N, O, P…. Rudiments. Learn them and practice them every damn day. Hands and feet. Don’t have to know them all but the main six, master them. Everything else gets a lot easier from there.

 

I was about to say the same thing.  I started my daughter on rudimental snare lessons with a great teacher in 2nd grade.  He didn't let her touch the kit for probably a year, and then brought her along slowly, connecting the dots along the way.

Learning rudimental drumming is like learning the mother sauces in cooking school.  It's only step one but it builds a terrific foundation.

[sidis 9823]

47 minutes ago, ohchaucer said:

 

Holy shit, was not expecting that! That is an unfathomable leap. Take it easy on yourself!

You’ll get to wherever you want to go but it takes a lot of time and energy. Good to have a goal. For me years ago, I just wanted to master the Purdie shuffle. For as simple as it is, it was daunting. But I’ve been playing it 20+ years and STILL can’t make it sound quite exactly like the big guy could.

The one thing I’ll say if you want to get from A to B to L, M, N, O, P…. Rudiments. Learn them and practice them every damn day. Hands and feet. Don’t have to know them all but the main six, master them. Everything else gets a lot easier from there.

It’s a fun ass journey though.

 

yeah, i recognize that going from hitting youth coach pitch to facing justin verlander is a bit of a jump but one of my biggest challenges in music is patience.  and i will sometimes use a mount everest as a good way to keep me patient...meaning, i know i can't do this but if i am making progress, it will get better each time and i will see it/hear it/feel it.  playing something like take five feels like a good way to check in on progress for myself.  but it is not...it is too ambitious...that's not a check in.  that's a discourager.  i need to find something else that's not achievable in my current state but is eventually which i'm not sure morello is unless i dedicate my life to it which i'm not.

fwiw, i did do ten mins of flams to start.

i can't help but wonder what it takes to get my legs and arms to work independently enough to play polyrhythms like that...particularly on a 5/4ths time sig.  crazy.

[ohchaucer 1443]

Every player is different, but I personally wouldn’t worry too much about polyrhythmic complexity until later. And remember, that is a different challenge than limb independence. Start with the latter. Polyrhythmic playing is ultimately about patterns so can be developed like any other element: start slow, break things down, and practice.

When you get there, Future Sounds by Dave Garibaldi is a great book on creativity and time across the set.

I think reasonable sequence of goals for practice over time would be:

- rudiments
- basic kit patterns and styles
- kit fluidity and limb independence
- kick and hands speed development
- advanced sticking
- advanced time signatures / multi-rhythm

That’s about 10 years of drumming right there.

Start slow and don’t progress until you are absolutely nails on what you’re practicing at moderate speed. Much harder than it sounds. Many many very snazzy drummers could play crazy shit at 240 bpm ALMOST ALMOST well…. but would actually struggle to play a PERFECT double roll or paradiddle at 100 bpm. Focus on precision and feel and beat first.

And also you seem to have good sense of what your goals are. Build your learning plan to that. I’ve known beginners who could play a reasonable gig in a rock band in matter of weeks. But not if they can’t keep a beat.

Most music is played between 100-140 bpm (way generalizing here) so don’t try to learn the things Terry Bozzio plays unless you want to play Terry Bozzio music. Probably a bad example but you get it.

[sidis 9823]

me listening to myself yesterday afternoon (starting at 5:15):

 

anyone else listening to me yesterday afternoon:

 

[rungeflash 322]

Keep at it, sidis. The most important part is do something routinely. Rudiments are boring as hell….so do a rudiment exercise….then play a song you really like. Keep it fun. The best diet or physical exercise routine is completely useless if you flame out of the desire. But what rudiments will add up to IMO is hand/foot pattern speed. Controllable speed. When you build that speed, songs that seemed impossibly fast before will “slow down” and you’ll play it better than you ever have.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by rungeflash

[jimmyjazz 45889]

The eagle has landed.  Welcome, Gretsch Vintage Pearl Renowns, in their new habitat charitably described as a north campus dump.  Thanks for all the advice:

[Handcruser 2805]

The eagle has landed.  Welcome, Gretsch Vintage Pearl Renowns, in their new habitat charitably described as a north campus dump.  Thanks for all the advice:

Pic doesn’t work.

[jimmyjazz 45889]

1 minute ago, Handcruser said:

Pic doesn’t work.

I'll try another method.

Edited August 30, 2023 by jimmyjazz

[ohchaucer 1443]

Those are sharp! And love the natural wood bass drum hoops. (Not to mention that port hole!).

Well done.

[Handcruser 2805]

I'll try another method.

Beautiful man!

[rungeflash 322]

I wanted to add some tom mics to my audix mic kit….. I came across these atm230s. These sound great! And inexpensive, the 3 pack is a bargain. The perfect little tom mics. Solid build, nice clip, excellent off axis rejection from the cymbals. Easy to get into tight spaces. They have some heft to them, but I noticed no tonal change out of the tom tune with these clipped on. 
 

 

 

 

[G650 14243]

5 minutes ago, rungeflash said:

I wanted to add some tom mics to my audix mic kit….. I came across these atm230s. These sound great! And inexpensive, the 3 pack is a bargain. The perfect little tom mics. Solid build, nice clip, excellent off axis rejection from the cymbals. Easy to get into tight spaces. They have some heft to them, but I noticed no tonal change out of the tom tune with these clipped on. 
 

 

 

 

I have those as well.

[rungeflash 322]

10 minutes ago, G650 said:

I have those as well.

Nice! What are you using for overheads? I already have buyers remorse on these audix overheads that came in the kit. Lol

[G650 14243]

2 minutes ago, rungeflash said:

Nice! What are you using for overheads? I already have buyers remorse on these audix overheads that came in the kit. Lol

 

I'm a dinosaur, I use old AKG 414s

[rungeflash 322]

10 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

I'm a dinosaur, I use old AKG 414s

Oh ya those are badass, dinosaur or not. A bit out of my price range….but I can already tell, if I was going to allocate serious bread….it should go to the overhead bucket

[G650 14243]

1 minute ago, rungeflash said:

Oh ya those are badass, dinosaur or not. A bit out of my price range….but I can already tell, if I was going to allocate serious bread….it should go to the overhead bucket

 

Oh, 100%. I'm a firm believer in the school of thought that you actually mic the kit with the overheads, and the other mics just fill in. I honestly don't use tom mics all the time. It's genre dependent.

[jimmyjazz 45889]

Everyone should learn about mid/side mic'ing.  Typically it's a coincident pair of a forward-facing cardioid and a side-facing figure 8.  The two mics rarely match -- I used to use a Royer 121 ribbon mic for the fig 8 and a Neuman or Microtech Gefell small diaphragm condenser for the forward-facing mic.  The beauty of it all is, mixed properly, it allows an easy way to spread the stereo image, and there are zero phase issues between the two mics.  The other beauty is that budget concious home recorders can buy ONE each of two great (and different) mics, which is more flexible for (say) overdubs than buying (say) a pair of Neumann small diaphragm condensers.

[Handcruser 2805]

Everyone should learn about mid/side mic'ing.  Typically it's a coincident pair of a forward-facing cardioid and a side-facing figure 8.  The two mics rarely match -- I used to use a Royer 121 ribbon mic for the fig 8 and a Neuman or Microtech Gefell small diaphragm condenser for the forward-facing mic.  The beauty of it all is, mixed properly, it allows an easy way to spread the stereo image, and there are zero phase issues between the two mics.  The other beauty is that budget concious home recorders can buy ONE each of two great (and different) mics, which is more flexible for (say) overdubs than buying (say) a pair of Neumann small diaphragm condensers.

For my cardioid needs I always use big diaphragms. Or something.

[ohchaucer 1443]

Everyone should learn about mid/side mic'ing.  Typically it's a coincident pair of a forward-facing cardioid and a side-facing figure 8.  The two mics rarely match -- I used to use a Royer 121 ribbon mic for the fig 8 and a Neuman or Microtech Gefell small diaphragm condenser for the forward-facing mic.  The beauty of it all is, mixed properly, it allows an easy way to spread the stereo image, and there are zero phase issues between the two mics.  The other beauty is that budget concious home recorders can buy ONE each of two great (and different) mics, which is more flexible for (say) overdubs than buying (say) a pair of Neumann small diaphragm condensers.

JJ, do you think there is a microphone combo for under, say $1000?

That r121 is nice but spendy. And could you diagram how you place? Is either overhead or is it snare side and in front?

[jimmyjazz 45889]

I'd have to look into it in terms of identifying models.  Plenty of mics have switchable patterns, so it's probable you could find a large diaphragm condenser that has cardioid and figure 8 switchable directivity.  That would actually help you cover typical large diaphragm apps like vocals, maybe acoustic instruments, etc along with mid-side "overheads".  I'm sure there are good cardioid pattern small diaphragm condensers for $500 or less, and you could probably get a decent switchable large diaphragm mic for that amount, too.  Now you're only in it for two mics.

The placement is right on top of each other.  The cardioid aims at the kit -- I used to put it out front.  The fig 8 is as close as you can get it to the other mic, aimed left/right.  (It will pick up equally well from both sides, and "none" in front or back.)  You record both mics, then double the figure 8 signal onto a 3rd track and flip the phase.  Pan those two fig 8 tracks one left one right and raise or lower their level relative to the "front" mic to widen or reduce the stereo image.  You can find tutorials all over the web.

Edited September 1, 2023 by jimmyjazz

[G650 14243]

The AT 4050 is a solid multi pattern mic that isn't too expensive

[jimmyjazz 45889]

11 minutes ago, G650 said:

The AT 4050 is a solid multi pattern mic that isn't too expensive

That's what I use for an LDC.

[rungeflash 322]

Was cruising thru DCPs new arrivals and this popped up. No idea on that price, but looks very clean

 

https://www.drumcenternh.com/used-fibes-4pc-austin-era-acrylic-drum-set-amber-usd-081423jt-4rf

 

 

[ohchaucer 1443]

That’s totally kick-ass.

That’s totally kick-ass.

[rungeflash 322]

Newest addition….I had been wanting to try a DW for a long time, so got a chance to try a 5000 and 9000 model. I actually liked the 5000 a bit more, so I ordered 5000 AD4 (accelerator). This has an eccentric shaped cam versus the turbo models linear cam. 
 

I really like it. It feels very good under foot. I can see why this 5000 has been such a pedal legend for 4 decades.

 

 

[Handcruser 2805]

Newest addition….I had been wanting to try a DW for a long time, so got a chance to try a 5000 and 9000 model. I actually liked the 5000 a bit more, so I ordered 5000 AD4 (accelerator). This has an eccentric shaped cam versus the turbo models linear cam. 
 
I really like it. It feels very good under foot. I can see why this 5000 has been such a pedal legend for 4 decades.
 

 

Nice man!

[jimmyjazz 45889]

Cool, that's good feedback.  So what's the difference in feel/power between the two cam shapes?

[ohchaucer 1443]

I had a 5000 for years and much prefer it to the 9000. Looking back I have no idea if I had a specific version.

It’s a really simple pedal relative to the 9000 (and lots of other higher end pedals) - which lends itself to being really durable. And also, you play to it versus having a million minor ways to adjust it, if that makes sense. I play a Yamaha FP9 now and, while it’s an incredible pedal, it’s so adjustable that it’s almost like you can lose what it’s naturally supposed to feel like. Again don’t know if that makes sense. And I bet if I played them side by side, I bet I have my Yamaha dialed in to feel probably just like the 5000 since that’s what I played for so long.

It’s like someone investing thousands of dollars on every bell and whistle in a crazy light and fancy bike but then finding himself wishing he could just ride his old Mongoose BMXer every once in a while.

Anyway, enough rambling. Great pedal. Go rock it.

[jimmyjazz 45889]

I've been reading up -- I think I might grab my daughter a DW 5000 Accelerator.  Seems like it's quicker, but with a bit less power.  Given that she always plays mic'ed up (except for rehearsals) I'm not sure that slight difference in power will be a big deal.

[rungeflash 322]

Ya the accelerator has a very slight perception that it’s speeding up as beater approaches batter. It’s not a huge difference but I decided on the accelerator for me. The 9000 model has a mechanism to change between turbo and accelerator so you essentially get both.

The 9000 to me was very nice, almost too nice, too smooth. Kind of sterile feeling vs the 5000. I just felt the 5000 gave back more feedback to the foot than the 9000. The other thing that discouraged me from the 9000 was the spring was located inside the framework, not the outside like 99% of pedals, way too close to toes imo

 

 

 

[rungeflash 322]

32 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I've been reading up -- I think I might grab my daughter a DW 5000 Accelerator.  Seems like it's quicker, but with a bit less power.  Given that she always plays mic'ed up (except for rehearsals) I'm not sure that slight difference in power will be a big deal.

It will have massive power….the beater that comes with these is very heavy. It wallops the drum with not a lot of effort. I took the beater off and weighed it versus my pearl eliminator beater (87 grams) and another DW “control” beater (90 grams)….. the DW 5000 beater was 103 grams. I swapped the pearl beater onto the 5000 and it was a little quieter and definitely faster. I might leave it like that. The 103gram beater is a behemoth 
 

 

[jimmyjazz 45889]

Tommy's talked me into the top Tama Iron Cobra -- elliptical cam (similar to the "Accelerator").  They said it's simpler with easier repairs.  Gave it to my daughter tonight, she flipped.

[rungeflash 322]

12 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Tommy's talked me into the top Tama Iron Cobra -- elliptical cam (similar to the "Accelerator").  They said it's simpler with easier repairs.  Gave it to my daughter tonight, she flipped.

Nooo…you screwed up, shoulda got the DW lol

I’m kidding, they’re both great. I still have an iron cobra 200 I’ve had for years…it’s been on multiple kits and is on my Roland set now. The Tama terms are “power glide” (accelerator equivalent) and “rolling glide” (turbo equivalent).

Both the Tama and DW are descendants of the Camco Pedal from the 1960s. But it primarily used a strap drive. DW introduced the double chain i believe in the early 80s and that really took off in the industry.

 

 

 

[jimmyjazz 45889]

His main point was that they are functionally very similar but that DW parts are more proprietary and harder to get, and the pedal is fussy in repair.

I honestly doubt she'd ever notice the difference.

[rungeflash 322]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

His main point was that they are functionally very similar but that DW parts are more proprietary and harder to get, and the pedal is fussy in repair.

I honestly doubt she'd ever notice the difference.

She’s not going to notice a difference, they are very similar as their lineage is the same. But I’m a bit surprised they have brought up parts failing on the DW5000 as a selling point….I really am not aware of those breaking prematurely or proprietary parts being difficult to source. Interesting. I have always considered the 5000 pretty bulletproof.

[jimmyjazz 45889]

That's probably true.  The other advantage to the Iron Cobra is that it's less expensive.

[rungeflash 322]

21 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

That's probably true.  The other advantage to the Iron Cobra is that it's less expensive.

It depends on which IC, Jimmy. They make 3 singles (IC200, IC600, IC900)

The iC200 is like $79, the IC600 $149 and IC900 $249. The IC900 is the one that butts heads with DW5000 in the market place….pretty much exact same price.

I think I paid $69 for my IC200 5 years ago and it’s still going strong….have done zero maintenance. Not even a lube. But it is squeaking now….time to break out the oil

 

[jimmyjazz 45889]

5 minutes ago, rungeflash said:

It depends on which IC, Jimmy. They make 3 singles (IC200, IC600, IC900)

The iC200 is like $79, the IC600 $149 and IC900 $249. The IC900 is the one that butts heads with DW5000 in the market place….pretty much exact same price.

I think I paid $69 for my IC200 5 years ago and it’s still going strong….have done zero maintenance. Not even a lube. But it is squeaking now….time to break out the oil

 

It's the IC900.  It was $229.

[rungeflash 322]

10 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

It's the IC900.  It was $229.

Wow…way to go Tommy!
 

I took a look thru their website, looks like a nice family owned business. Opened in 1978 I think. Was cruising thru the pics section…and sure looked like Chris Layton in one of the photos. 

[jimmyjazz 45889]

8 minutes ago, rungeflash said:

Wow…way to go Tommy!
 

I took a look thru their website, looks like a nice family owned business. Opened in 1978 I think. Was cruising thru the pics section…and sure looked like Chris Layton in one of the photos. 

To my knowledge, it's the main pro drum shop in town, and has been for decades.  Tommy was the one who resurrected Fibes.

[ohchaucer 1443]

To my knowledge, it's the main pro drum shop in town, and has been for decades.  Tommy was the one who is going to resurrect Fibes again very soon

Fixed it for wishful thinking.