Captain Marvel (aka, the appetizer before Infinity War 2)

[Dutchrudder 11,139]

Superman always sucked as a hero because he was nearly invulnerable. There were no stakes, anyone he fought could be killed in an instant. Doesn't matter if what gender they are, when a hero doesn't have anything to overcome besides "bad guy is bad and needs to be defeated!" it's a lame story.

[Disco Missile 456]

55 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

this has actually become a problem.  i had a meeting with a female exec not long ago at a female driven production company looking for female driven tv projects, and she said everything that comes in is basically a superhero movie (except it's based in real life) and they can't do anything with it.  she called it the "olivia pope" effect.  that "she's awesome at business and everybody wants to fuck her" (her words).

she mentioned how there have been plenty of iconic male roles with deeply flawed main characters - soprano, draper, white, underwood, horseman (had to), mackey, etc and that writers haven't figured out how to do it correctly with women, that the over-correction hasn't corrected itself, or some such.

it's gonna get worse before it gets better.

 

24 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

It’s just ironic that the supposedly empowering characters are like the old school John Wayne roles instead of real people with depth. 

I think pop culture heroes tend to reflect the trends of the day.

Old school John Wayne characters perhaps weren't 'deep' or layered characters and instead tended to be archetypes, but the PLOT was usually the point in those old movies rather than characters. They were mostly parables and allegories. The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence or 12 O'Clock High for example. The Searchers and The Shootist had more nuanced characters.

The antihero was a creation of the 70s and 80s and was primarily a rejection of the white hat hero from the 50s and 60s. That's where we get The Man With No Name and Rambo, and eventually delve deeper towards Walter White and Tony Soprano with the cynicism and rejection of a moral center in the 90s and 00s. 

By now the brooding male antihero is a cliche, but for whatever reason it doesn't translate to female characters. Sarah Linden in The Killing was a great example of one, but how many women liked her? (not many) Women still mainly gravitate towards characters like Carrie Bradshaw and Wonder Woman which is the female version of the white hat hero.

The problem, as I see it, is that Hollywood has lost the ability to tell parables and allegories without hitting you repeatedly in the face with the morality hammer. An archetype hero is fine, so long as the story supports it. A female paladin-type is just fine within the right context. And that's the problem. Because a paladin needs specific supporting characters and a fairly specific story, and Hollywood tends to look down their nose at stories like that.

[henrygandorf 29,191]

the overall and recurring issue is that there are certain types of actors/roles that men play that men find appealing to watch.  the same goes for women.  but those male/female roles are not reversible.  there is no goose and gander situation for men/women and who they like to watch on screen.

my example is ocean's 11.  i like it a lot.  it's a likable movie with big stars and it's fun to watch.  my sister (and other women i know) fucking love this movie.  they love to watch those same guys in those same roles.  they certainly don't like it because of julia roberts' character.  then ocean's 8 came out, and many of the same women either weren't interested in seeing it, or saw it and thought it was ok.  i heard more than once, "why does there need to be a women's version of this" - from women.  ocean's 11 isn't a dude movie, so there's no reason to make a chick version of it.  i read several reviews from people who liked sandra bullock but hated her character.

like you said about linden - take a guy like don draper - men and women both liked his character.  if you built the exact same character (same traits) but had it played by a woman, there's a decent chance both men and women would not like her character.

this is going to be a problem until people realize there isn't a problem.  or at least it isn't the problem they think it is.

[ajax 2,615]

9 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

this is going to be a problem until people realize there isn't a problem.  or at least it isn't the problem they think it is.

We live in a peaceful and prosperous society. People are looking for and inventing problems to solve. And inventing enemies to go along with them.

[Eskimohorn 5,635]

this has actually become a problem.  i had a meeting with a female exec not long ago at a female driven production company looking for female driven tv projects, and she said everything that comes in is basically a superhero movie (except it's based in real life) and they can't do anything with it.  she called it the "olivia pope" effect.  that "she's awesome at business and everybody wants to fuck her" (her words).
she mentioned how there have been plenty of iconic male roles with deeply flawed main characters - soprano, draper, white, underwood, horseman (had to), mackey, etc and that writers haven't figured out how to do it correctly with women, that the over-correction hasn't corrected itself, or some such.
it's gonna get worse before it gets better.

Mrs Maisel is a flawed iconic woman character. It’s refreshing.

[hayden_horn 11,362]

not big screen, but jessica jones is all kinds of fucked up

[ajax 2,615]

1 minute ago, hayden_horn said:

not big screen, but jessica jones is all kinds of fucked up

Loved the first season of Jessica Jones.

I'm not really sure what the formula is. I wouldn't call Ellen Ripley fucked up. She just cared about her crew members. Alita worked really well, and she wasn't fucked up either. Wonder Woman was great as a character. The villain in her movie sucked though.

[henrygandorf 29,191]

1 hour ago, Eskimohorn said:

 

Mrs Maisel is a flawed iconic woman character. It’s refreshing.

 

i enjoy the show and her character, but she is super-human at times too.  she's great at everything she just slips up and does silly things now and again.  she was instantly great at stand-up with little to no background or practice.  everyone at the dept store goes to her to solve all of their problems, both at the counters and the switchboard.  her only real screwup was who she married (who only left because he felt inadequate next to her).

i think the character works so well though because it's a period piece and has the feel and tone of a broadway musical.  she's not flawed like the men we've mentioned, but once again, that's a good thing.  because that character would likely suck.

[mdmost 43,001]

58 minutes ago, ajax said:

Loved the first season of Jessica Jones.

I'm not really sure what the formula is. I wouldn't call Ellen Ripley fucked up. She just cared about her crew members. Alita worked really well, and she wasn't fucked up either. Wonder Woman was great as a character. The villain in her movie sucked though.

Ripley and other every woman characters that are considered strong types aren't superheroes and never start out being badasses. They're ordinary people thrown into extraordinary circumstances. The other one I'd put in that category is Sarah Connor. But she's basically drug through the first movie as a scared damsel by her male counterpart and becomes tough in the end when she has to or die. Then she comes back in the sequel as a badass after preparing for the eventual threat that was built up in the first movie. Sadly it seems Hollywood can't write that character any more and James Cameron is off making Dances With Wolves CGI fests.

I keep seeing references to Captain Marvel being like a 90s action movie. In most 90s action movies, the lead (typically male) is pretty much a certified badass with little to no flaws who has a pretty easy time overcoming the various obstacles thrown in his path (Arnold, Van Damme, Steven Seagal, Keanu Reeves, Will Smith, etc.). I think with superheros, there's not much you can throw in their path that they cannot handle. Infinity War was the first where the heroes actually lost. I'm not sure how they overcome that and it will be a tad annoying if Captain Marvel is flawless. But Marvel has a formula and this certainly seems to fit it. 

Going tonight with my nerd buddy. Will report back.

Edited March 7, 2019 by mdmost

[ajax 2,615]

5 minutes ago, mdmost said:

In most 90s action movies, the lead (typically male) is pretty much a certified badass with little to no flaws who has a pretty easy time overcoming the various obstacles thrown in his path

Ugh, that's why I hate some of the 90s action movies so much.

Although, I mentioned Long Kiss Goodnight earlier and it's from the 90s. If anyone hasn't seen that movie, I highly highly recommend you see it. Geena Davis is basically Jason Bourne before Jason Bourne ever existed. She's a superspy assassin, a total badass, and it works.

[Parliament 14,258]

If you view Mad Men as an ensemble, Peggy Olson fits the discussion. A good person with insecurities who makes mistakes.

[ajax 2,615]

Saw another rumor about Captain Marvel. Interesting retcon if true...

In the movie, Carol Danvers's call sign is "Avenger". Basically the entire Avengers team is named after her.

I looked it up, her call sign in the comics is Warbird.

[Michael Knight 12,977]

4 hours ago, ajax said:

Saw another rumor about Captain Marvel. Interesting retcon if true...

 

  Hide contents

In the movie, Carol Danvers's call sign is "Avenger". Basically the entire Avengers team is named after her.

I looked it up, her call sign in the comics is Warbird.

 

I don't wanna spoil it for you but

Spoiler

The entire Avengers backstory from the movies is a retcon

 

[RPM 26,320]

Thank God this opens tonight. Only 1 more week of nonstop advertisements. This movie must really suck as hard as they are promoting it.

[henrygandorf 29,191]

down to 82% on rt.

[Buzzrock 14,920]

Add Luv from Blade Runner 2049 as a recent badass female film character.

[Disco Missile 456]

8 hours ago, mdmost said:

Ripley and other every woman characters that are considered strong types aren't superheroes and never start out being badasses. They're ordinary people thrown into extraordinary circumstances. The other one I'd put in that category is Sarah Connor. But she's basically drug through the first movie as a scared damsel by her male counterpart and becomes tough in the end when she has to or die. Then she comes back in the sequel as a badass after preparing for the eventual threat that was built up in the first movie. Sadly it seems Hollywood can't write that character any more and James Cameron is off making Dances With Wolves CGI fests.

I keep seeing references to Captain Marvel being like a 90s action movie. In most 90s action movies, the lead (typically male) is pretty much a certified badass with little to no flaws who has a pretty easy time overcoming the various obstacles thrown in his path (Arnold, Van Damme, Steven Seagal, Keanu Reeves, Will Smith, etc.). I think with superheros, there's not much you can throw in their path that they cannot handle. Infinity War was the first where the heroes actually lost. I'm not sure how they overcome that and it will be a tad annoying if Captain Marvel is flawless. But Marvel has a formula and this certainly seems to fit it. 

Going tonight with my nerd buddy. Will report back.

8 hours ago, ajax said:

Ugh, that's why I hate some of the 90s action movies so much.

Those types of heroes are a joke now. Like the classic 'face' in WWE. 

 

8 hours ago, ajax said:

Although, I mentioned Long Kiss Goodnight earlier and it's from the 90s. If anyone hasn't seen that movie, I highly highly recommend you see it. Geena Davis is basically Jason Bourne before Jason Bourne ever existed. She's a superspy assassin, a total badass, and it works.

 

Point of No Return was better, and Bridget Fonda was more realistic as an assassin. She was a junkie or something that got 'killed' and put into a secret program to become an off-the-books killer. Plus Harvey Keitel.
Geena Davis is 90s cool but super cheesy in retrospect.

[ajax 2,615]

15 minutes ago, Disco Missile said:

Point of No Return was better, and Bridget Fonda was more realistic as an assassin. She was a junkie or something that got 'killed' and put into a secret program to become an off-the-books killer. Plus Harvey Keitel.
Geena Davis is 90s cool but super cheesy in retrospect.

That's a remake of La Femme Nikita, one of my favorite movies of all time. I saw Point of No Return and it was okay but the original is far far better.

 

 

[Pato del Muerto 52,497]

been a while, but remember sally field in not without my daughter?  Or even Norma Rae. She’s managed to find quality female leading roles for a long time. 

[RPM 26,320]

Colombiana had a badass female lead.

 

[Disco Missile 456]

4 minutes ago, RPM said:

Colombiana had a badass female lead.

 

Interesting backstory on that film - it was originally conceived as a sequel to The Professional where Mathilda would be the lead character. Obviously that wasn't the final product though. Kind of like Commando/Die Hard.

[The People’s Elbow 707]

At the theater right now: movie starts in less than two minutes, the seats are less than half full, and there aren’t any lines at the concession stands. It’s surprisingly dead here. 

[RPM 26,320]

12 minutes ago, Disco Missile said:

Kind of like Commando/Die Hard.

Fake news.

https://movieweb.com/die-hard-not-based-on-commando-2-script/

[The Dog 44,046]

down to 82% on rt.

Is that bad?

[Chuckie Finster 22,694]

Quickly scrolling through Twitter, and the general consensus from people seems to be “whoa, that was actually good.” I know the people who are seeing a movie on opening night aren’t going to be the toughest critics, but I’m wondering if all the hubbub over the last few weeks has lowered expectations almost too much.

[TexEx15 17,523]

I really enjoyed it.  She is a badass!

[Neonmoon 38,129]

Claire Danes plays a pretty flawed woman heroine in Homeland. In fact, she also played a good flawed female character in Brokedown Palace. 

There are flawed women characters out there, but yes, I get the point being made. 

[pwinger 35]

 I stayed away from all the spoilers, rumors and negative hype. 

The trailers didn't do much for me, but got damn if I didn't enjoy the fuck out of the movie. 

[Pato del Muerto 52,497]

So marvel strikes again?

[ajax 2,615]

Eh. Curiosity got the best of me. 

Not as bad as a lot of people say but not a great movie.

Larson is a good actress. But she can't do comedy or quips. There were no laughs for me in this movie. 

About equal to Dr Strange. Its a good time.

[The People’s Elbow 707]

Movie was pretty good. Enjoyable backstories and references. Answered some questions and uncovered even more questions. Aside from Mendelssohn and Samuel L., the acting was mediocre, but overall entertaining.

[mdmost 43,001]

I'll agree. Good but not great. Fun and actiony. I'd put it on the Ant Man & Wasp level, which I enjoyed. It's not Iron Man or the First Avenger but it's not bad. There was some forced elements like her and Fury's relationship. Will see it again next week with my wife and kids. The first after credit scene is pretty good. 

[RexWilson 1,347]

I didn't like it it. Captain Marvel's abilities are cool but the story sucked.

[Drew 2,408]

Thank God this opens tonight. Only 1 more week of nonstop advertisements. This movie must really suck as hard as they are promoting it.

I’m not sure that’s how this works. Even the great movies or movies that you know will make bank get advertised advertised all over the place. They advertised it so much because they need it to work more than they think it sucks.

[atomheartbevo 89,661]

3 minutes ago, Drew said:

I’m not sure that’s how this works. Even the great movies or movies that you know will make bank get advertised advertised all over the place. They advertised it so much because they need it to work more than they think it sucks.

And they need it to work for the next Avengers movie.  Or rather they need it to be seen, at least by the non-comic book fans.  

The pager at the end of Infinity War made it a necessity.  

[Js1 85,332]

Going Sunday morning because I'm an old (at heart) fuck who ain't paying more than $6 for a movie.  Except IW2.  I will pay full price to see it on Friday afternoon and duck out of work at lunch.  

But not this one. 

[Longhornfan1024 1,707]

Saw it last night. Solidly in the Ant Man and Dr. Strange category is a good way to put it. It was entertaining and I'd watch it again but the story wasn't super interesting. A solid popcorn flick. The best part was the 90s chase scene.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[Disco Missile 456]

I feel like we need to distinguish between Ant Man and Dr Strange.

Ant Man was more of a comedy with a focus on physical comedy and delivered it pretty well. The giant Thomas made me laugh in the theater. Also Paul Rudd has great natural comedic delivery. 
Dr Strange was more of a supernatural drama with phenomenal actors. It was a decent movie, but it felt pretty wonky at times and was slow to start.

Without seeing Captain Marvel I'm confused when you guys say it falls in this range. Was it more of a quirky comedy or a serious drama?

I was already on the fence about seeing it since I have been a Carol Danvers fan for a long time and don't agree with the MCU's direction here, Brie Larson doesn't do it for me, and also this derriere is pretty disappointing:

[Js1 85,332]

For me, Ant Man and Dr. Strange are "good, not great, standalone stories outside of the ensemble movies" to give me backstory on characters who will become/are part of the central IW/Avengers arc. 

[ajax 2,615]

40 minutes ago, Disco Missile said:

I feel like we need to distinguish between Ant Man and Dr Strange.

Ant Man was more of a comedy with a focus on physical comedy and delivered it pretty well. The giant Thomas made me laugh in the theater. Also Paul Rudd has great natural comedic delivery. 
Dr Strange was more of a supernatural drama with phenomenal actors. It was a decent movie, but it felt pretty wonky at times and was slow to start.

Without seeing Captain Marvel I'm confused when you guys say it falls in this range. Was it more of a quirky comedy or a serious drama?

I was already on the fence about seeing it since I have been a Carol Danvers fan for a long time and don't agree with the MCU's direction here, Brie Larson doesn't do it for me, and also this derriere is pretty disappointing:

It's equivalent to those 2 movies in terms of enjoyment, not style. It's neither serious drama or quirky comedy. It's action-adventure. It tries comedy and falls completely flat, but that's okay because it's only a small part. It's a fine action movie.

Also, I was surprised at how small it felt. You know how Wakanda felt like a larger city, if not country, and how the junk planet in Ragnorok felt full and lived in. Captain Marvel takes place in a few small sets. None of the locations felt large and sweeping. In this respect it was a lot like Thor 2. One of the reviews I saw said it felt like an extended CW TV show and it really does that way.

[BERT 4,358]

So the nerds will bitch and the average Marvel fan will enjoy it. Sounds about right. 

[TexEx15 17,523]

Reading up on Brie Larson and had no idea she won the Oscar for lead actress in 2015.

[ajax 2,615]

6 minutes ago, TexEx15 said:

Reading up on Brie Larson and had no idea she won the Oscar for lead actress in 2015.

Yep. She won it for her role in the romantic comedy The Room, directed by Tommy Wiseau. You should definitely watch it.

[Disco Missile 456]

1 hour ago, ajax said:

It's equivalent to those 2 movies in terms of enjoyment, not style. It's neither serious drama or quirky comedy. It's action-adventure. It tries comedy and falls completely flat, but that's okay because it's only a small part. It's a fine action movie.

Also, I was surprised at how small it felt. You know how Wakanda felt like a larger city, if not country, and how the junk planet in Ragnorok felt full and lived in. Captain Marvel takes place in a few small sets. None of the locations felt large and sweeping. In this respect it was a lot like Thor 2. One of the reviews I saw said it felt like an extended CW TV show and it really does that way.

Okay thanks. I'll probably go see it this weekend because I won't have my kids. 
I've stayed away from the hype good or bad, but I almost feel like I'm Star Wars'd out on Marvel. I like the original cast and movies. The new stuff doesn't carry the same excitement, and my kids still haven't forgiven me for taking them to see Infinity War. 

[Bateshorn 9,927]

On 3/6/2019 at 6:47 PM, longhornmatt said:

Yeah, I understand it’s the (I’m assuming female) writers driving that and not necessarily the execs.  It’s just ironic that the supposedly empowering characters are like the old school John Wayne roles instead of real people with depth. 

I don't think it's female writers.  It's writers in general.  There's plenty of good writing for women  as both the hero and villain of their own story going on, Crazy Ex Girlfriend explores this space every week.  It's just nobody has created a really iconic, yet flawed movie heroine yet.  You can feel writers trying to find it on TV, I thought Sabrina the Teenage Witch had some interesting play on this, but it hasn't happened as quickly as I think most of us or the market place would like.  Wonder Women was a great step forward, but was sabotaged by the final act and the general shittiness of Zach Snyder's vision for the DC universe.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Bateshorn

[Drew 2,408]

1 hour ago, BERT said:

So the nerds will bitch and the average Marvel fan will enjoy it. Sounds about right. 

So like most of these movies then?

[CooterBrown 18,011]

Captain Marvel takes place in a few small sets. None of the locations felt large and sweeping. In this respect it was a lot like Thor 2.

I would guess it makes sense it’s a small movie. The world didn’t know aliens existed until the Thor movie IIRC. They’d have to keep Captain Marvel on the down low to maintain that.

[BERT 4,358]

1 hour ago, Drew said:

So like most of these movies then?

Exactly 

[joeycovers 391]

My 9 and 5 year old are dying to see it.. Just making sure no intimate scenes or anything. They saw Infinity War. 

[ajax 2,615]

3 minutes ago, joeycovers said:

My 9 and 5 year old are dying to see it.. Just making sure no intimate scenes or anything. They saw Infinity War. 

No, Fury totally bones Carol. A2M too.