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Illinois Republican Governor: 40k is too much for a minimum teacher salary

Horn Under a Bad Sign

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Horn Under a Bad Sign

Horn Under a Bad Sign 20435

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You ever been to Illinois? I have. It's expensive to live there.  But that didn't keep  Gov. Bruce Rauner from vetoing legislation that would have raised the minimum salary for an Illinois teacher to $40,000 within five years. The current Illinois law lists the minimum salary for a teacher at $9,000, a level that took effect in July 1980.
 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/ct-met-bruce-rauner-minimum-teacher-salary-20180826-story.htmlhttp://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/ct-met-bruce-rauner-minimum-teacher-salary-20180826-story.html

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Mole

Mole 4333

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Just asking questions: The headline looks bad and the quote doesn't help him much. Is there some unintended consequence that I'm missing that this would actually hurt teachers? I'm not seeing it, but sometimes when the headline is too perfect for our biases (see the Cruz attacks on Beto) there's a disconnect with reality.

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PenelopeWitherspoon

PenelopeWitherspoon 19108

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And this is why you should read the article rather than just the headline.

“Teachers are our greatest asset in ensuring the future of our youth and they deserve to be well-compensated for their hard work,” Rauner wrote in his veto message. “However, minimum pay legislation is neither the most efficient nor the most effective way to compensate our teachers.

“Things like pay-for-performance, diversified pay for teachers in hard-to-staff schools or subjects, or pay incentives for teachers with prior work experience are all viable options to provide greater compensation for teachers,” the governor wrote.

Edited by PenelopeWitherspoon
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TornACL

TornACL 7712

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In a state that features both Chicago, and Mt. Vernon, I'm not sure that a state minimum wage is a solution. If you set the floor at the Chicago floor, you're likely crippling the budgets of the smaller towns. And if you set the number at $30K or $40K you get a similar article written about you saying that you don't give a shit about Chicago area teachers.

 

 

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Js1

Js1 85420

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8 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

Here's an idea: How about a minimum of something that's at least a living wage, and THEN we can tack on the performance bonuses and such.

Yes.

The War on Teachers is a big reason why a lot of Republicans are getting kicked out of office.

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Huckleberry

Huckleberry 33003

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1 hour ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

And this is why you should read the article rather than just the headline.

 

 

By reading the article, I see that the current legally specified minimum is $9,000 annual salary.

Let's say teachers are only required to work 8 hours on 180 days (hahaha). That works out to $6.25 an hour.

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28788

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2 hours ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

And this is why you should read the article rather than just the headline.

 

 

What has he done to promote the "viable options" he described in your quote? Anything? I don't know but he's GOP so I'm betting he hasn't done squat and that's all just empty rhetoric. An educated electorate is bad for the GOP and they've been fighting against public education for decades. 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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2 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

What has he done to promote the "viable options" he described in your quote? Anything? I don't know but he's GOP so I'm betting he hasn't done squat and that's all just empty rhetoric. An educated electorate is bad for the GOP and they've been fighting against public education for decades. 

I'm sorry, the NEA is one of the worst unions in the country, and it's been fully behind the DNC for decades. So who's really for an educated public, cause it ain't the NEA, and it's protect teachers at the expense of students track record.

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 45978

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I'm sorry, but I grew up in rural Missouri, which isn't all that different than rural Illinois.  My mother was a sometimes college English prof but spent quite a bit more time at the middle & high school level.  She was making ~ $43K in the 1980's.  

How is $40K all that difficult NOW?  That's absurd.

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Nivek

Nivek 16945

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So serious question, given the state of both Illinois' and Chicago's finances, how is this guaranteed teacher minimum wage going to be funded? What about requiring minimum performance standards to qualify?

How about we use that standard for police, military, and politicians?
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Huckleberry

Huckleberry 33003

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At least the good news is the Democrat Pritzker, likely would support the passage of such a bill...
Every time I see you end a post with an ellipsis or even more so with "..!" I'm going to neg you. If you're not done with your thought then finish it before you post.

The only people I know who end messages like that are my wife and mother-in-law and it drives me up a wall. We all can tell that you want a response to your message, the ellipsis just makes it look like you trailed off for no good reason. Nothing personal but you have afforded me an opportunity to lash out against that pet peeve without affecting my marriage. Good luck.
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PenelopeWitherspoon

PenelopeWitherspoon 19108

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Do you (or the IL governor) understand what the word ‘minimum’ means?
I probably understand the true meaning of a minimum wage substantially better than you do.

FYI, the median teacher salary is IL is 59k (google median IL teacher salary) Perhaps, rather than an article with an inflammatory headline, maybe the Tribune should do research. How many IL teachers actually make less than 40k? If they do, what is the cost of living where they live?

At the end of the day, the money has to come from somewhere. IL is a high tax state. Who is going to bear the burden? Where are the cuts going to come from? Is this going to guarantee better teachers and better results? Those are the questions that need to be asked. Those are questions so many people do not ask, which has led this entire country to the place we are now. Hard decisions have to be made. Money is a finite resource.
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Huckleberry

Huckleberry 33003

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39 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I probably understand the true meaning of a minimum wage substantially better than you do.

FYI, the median teacher salary is IL is 59k (google median IL teacher salary) Perhaps, rather than an article with an inflammatory headline, maybe the Tribune should do research. How many IL teachers actually make less than 40k? If they do, what is the cost of living where they live?

At the end of the day, the money has to come from somewhere. IL is a high tax state. Who is going to bear the burden? Where are the cuts going to come from? Is this going to guarantee better teachers and better results? Those are the questions that need to be asked. Those are questions so many people do not ask, which has led this entire country to the place we are now. Hard decisions have to be made. Money is a finite resource.

Yeah, you keep ignoring the fact that the law on their books is, you know, illegal. $9,000 in annual pay for an employee who works 180 8-hour days (and we know teachers are expected to work more than that) is below the federal minimum wage. So that figure absolutely needs to be raised or else the minimum annual salary for teachers needs to be erased from the books.

Edited by Huckleberry
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PenelopeWitherspoon

PenelopeWitherspoon 19108

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Yeah, you keep ignoring the fact that the law on their books is, you know, illegal. $9,000 in annual pay for an employee who works 180 8-hour days (and we know teachers are expected to work more than that) is below the federal minimum wage. So that figure absolutely needs to be raised or else the minimum annual salary for teachers needs to be erased from the books.
So, if the law is illegal, it should be abolished. However, that doesn't mean replacing it with an arbitrary 40k minimum is the right answer. I personally am against all price controls, including minimum wage.
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PenelopeWitherspoon

PenelopeWitherspoon 19108

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Since when?  $859 billion spending bill says hi.
Ah, and there is the assumption that I support the current regime. Personally, I think they are all idiots and two sides of the same country. Neither care about fiscal responsibility at all. I, however, do. I haven't supported large spending bills in years. Didnt support any of the bail outs either.
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Huckleberry

Huckleberry 33003

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Without getting into that argument and all the reasons the libertarian utopia doesn't work in reality, there's also literally no way around having a government-enforced minimum wage for teachers. Every school district, which are governments, sets the floor for their salary scale. That means a minimum wage for those positions by definition. Having it done at the State level just shifts it from local to more centralized, which in and of itself is a bad thing. Somebody living in Shawneetown doesn't need to make the same as someone living in an expensive section of Chicago.

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pepper brooks

pepper brooks 580

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18 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

Here's an idea: How about a minimum of something that's at least a living wage, and THEN we can tack on the performance bonuses and such.

nobody is getting paid 9K to teach a full year at a public school in Illinois.  that's just a headline to spark faux outrage.  Let the market set the minimum.  At some point governments and constituents are going to have to realize they need to figure out what is most important and necessary in the allocation of tax dollars.  I would argue education, nutrition and care of children is absolutely the most important thing at the local and state level.  Care for the elderly would probably be a close second, but if we get the care and education of the children right they hopefully find success in the world and need less help/care as elderly people.  

 

That said, if teachers do not like the wages paid in Illinois they should consider using the market to move to a place with better wages.  Illinois will eventually have a supply shortage of teachers, and wages will have to increase in order to meet demand.  This isn't a complex problem.  It gets complex when feelings are mixed with market forces.  

Edited by pepper brooks
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kopp0e

kopp0e 1135

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1 hour ago, Huckleberry said:

Every time I see you end a post with an ellipsis or even more so with "..!" I'm going to neg you. If you're not done with your thought then finish it before you post.

The only people I know who end messages like that are my wife and mother-in-law and it drives me up a wall. We all can tell that you want a response to your message, the ellipsis just makes it look like you trailed off for no good reason. Nothing personal but you have afforded me an opportunity to lash out against that pet peeve without affecting my marriage. Good luck.

Your putting too much thought into it... It's just how I type on message boards/ Twitter/ Facebook/ Instagram, ect., now if job related, then I just end with a period.
Otherwise, it's not as if I an typing for gaining employment, working in a field that requires proper punctuation, but sometimes we need to let out the built up aggression...

(But I can respect your point of view)..! And no, I don't really much mind if there is a "response", as the point was to place my thought on a thread, have a good day tho..!

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SuingToGetAMessageBoard?

SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861

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3 minutes ago, pepper brooks said:

nobody is getting paid 9K to teach a full year at a public school in Illinois.  that's just a headline to spark faux outrage.  Let the market set the minimum.  At some point governments and constituents are going to have to realize they need to figure out what is most important and necessary in the allocation of tax dollars.  I would argue education, nutrition and care of children is absolutely the most important thing at the local and state level.  Care for the elderly would probably be a close second, but if we get the care and education of the children right they hopefully find success in the world and need less help/care as elderly people.  

  

That said, if teachers do not like the wages paid in Illinois they should consider using the market to move to a place with better wages.  Illinois will eventually have a supply shortage of teachers, and wages will have to increase in order to meet demand.  This isn't a complex problem.  It gets complex when feelings are mixed with market forces.  

'let the market speak' is super dumb when talking about schools.  'the market' does not care about the fundamental job of the government -- to create an educated population that will advance the state for the next generation.  'the market' largely does not care if your class has 20 kids or 25 kids, 'the market' cannot respond before today's kindergarteners are 8th graders, 'the market' is not affected by a fixed property tax base, 'the market' is controlled by people who are not in school and don't see themselves as having a skin in the game. 

 

look at what reliance on the agreement of the masses has done to Oklahoma.  schools are open 4 days a week, teacher of the year immediately abandons state, districts close.  why?  because cletus will always vote for his extra $8 per year than fund the future he will be dead for.  the only thing cletus cares about with his schools is if his side of the culture war of the day is reflected in the mandatory syllabus.  they are now trying to fix all that by sending mary fallin into exile.  tough luck to the kids who've been fucked by it for years in the interim.  i'm sure your 10+ years of race to the bottom funding in education won't affect your competitiveness against the millions of others you will be competing for a job.  we call this the great laboratory of democracy, but we refuse to learn.  "what you're suggesting has absolutely failed when it was tried." "yeah, but what if I pretend it didn't?"

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kopp0e

kopp0e 1135

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Too bad America does not fashion pay for teachers similar to how it's is structured in some nations overseas:

Quote

Top countries to make the most money teaching abroad in 2018 (with ...

Nov 28, 2017 - Often overlooked, Kazakhstan is a country nestled between Europe and Asia that offers some of the best and well-paying teaching positions ...
Quote

The 20 countries where teachers are paid the best ... - Business Insider

 
Jan 15, 2016 - The 20 countries where teachers are paid the best and the worst ... gap between thehighest and lowest paid teachers around the world.

 

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 45978

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19 minutes ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

'let the market speak' is super dumb when talking about schools.  'the market' does not care about the fundamental job of the government -- to create an educated population that will advance the state for the next generation.  'the market' largely does not care if your class has 20 kids or 25 kids, 'the market' cannot respond before today's kindergarteners are 8th graders, 'the market' is not affected by a fixed property tax base, 'the market' is controlled by people who are not in school and don't see themselves as having a skin in the game. 

 

look at what reliance on the agreement of the masses has done to Oklahoma.  schools are open 4 days a week, teacher of the year immediately abandons state, districts close.  why?  because cletus will always vote for his extra $8 per year than fund the future he will be dead for.  the only thing cletus cares about with his schools is if his side of the culture war of the day is reflected in the mandatory syllabus.  they are now trying to fix all that by sending mary fallin into exile.  tough luck to the kids who've been fucked by it for years in the interim.  i'm sure your 10+ years of race to the bottom funding in education won't affect your competitiveness against the millions of others you will be competing for a job.  we call this the great laboratory of democracy, but we refuse to learn.  "what you're suggesting has absolutely failed when it was tried." "yeah, but what if I pretend it didn't?"

Socialist.

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softlynow

softlynow 1816

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We pay for weapons the Pentagon doesn't even want, but a decent wage for teachers is squeezing "blood out of a turnip."

This shit is why we have Trump. Selfishness dressed up as high-minded political theory. So many want an advanced society, but simply do not want to pay for it.

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High Plains Drifter

High Plains Drifter 11050

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2 hours ago, pepper brooks said:

nobody is getting paid 9K to teach a full year at a public school in Illinois.  that's just a headline to spark faux outrage.  Let the market set the minimum.  At some point governments and constituents are going to have to realize they need to figure out what is most important and necessary in the allocation of tax dollars.  I would argue education, nutrition and care of children is absolutely the most important thing at the local and state level.  Care for the elderly would probably be a close second, but if we get the care and education of the children right they hopefully find success in the world and need less help/care as elderly people.  

 

That said, if teachers do not like the wages paid in Illinois they should consider using the market to move to a place with better wages.  Illinois will eventually have a supply shortage of teachers, and wages will have to increase in order to meet demand.  This isn't a complex problem.  It gets complex when feelings are mixed with market forces.  

 

Regarding the second paragraph:

Telling someone making 40k to teach in Chicago to move to another state is not realistic. They can probably barely afford rent and a car payment. How about using the market by paying more, which will attract a larger pool from which to select teachers? A larger pool means better talent to chose from, which means better teaching, which addresses your first paragraph.

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High Plains Drifter

High Plains Drifter 11050

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2 hours ago, kopp0e said:

Too bad America does not fashion pay for teachers similar to how it's is structured in some nations overseas:

 

It would be better if that article also are compared avg class size, number of school days in a year, length of school day, amount of support the teacher gets, etc.

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sheeeit

sheeeit 129

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25 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

Regarding the second paragraph:

Telling someone making 40k to teach in Chicago to move to another state is not realistic. They can probably barely afford rent and a car payment. How about using the market by paying more, which will attract a larger pool from which to select teachers? A larger pool means better talent to chose from, which means better teaching, which addresses your first paragraph.

I fully support increased teacher pay.  But this was a a typical political stunt.  Illinois is actually pretty good at teacher pay relative to other states.  In the bigger cities teacher pay starts at well above $40K and with a masters it climbs into the $70-$80K range very quickly.  That is solid pay for a teacher.  Plus, there are a myriad of financial aid packages for working teachers and evening and online classes.

The real problem with your suggestion is that Illinois is essentially broke.  

https://money.cnn.com/2017/06/29/investing/illinois-budget-crisis-downgrade/index.html

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PenelopeWitherspoon

PenelopeWitherspoon 19108

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Without getting into that argument and all the reasons the libertarian utopia doesn't work in reality, there's also literally no way around having a government-enforced minimum wage for teachers. Every school district, which are governments, sets the floor for their salary scale. That means a minimum wage for those positions by definition. Having it done at the State level just shifts it from local to more centralized, which in and of itself is a bad thing. Somebody living in Shawneetown doesn't need to make the same as someone living in an expensive section of Chicago.
I agree that a state mandated minimum is stupid. I know the libertarian ideal is impossible for a lot of reasons, but I'd support keeping things at local levels, maybe at the school district level. The point us that that headline is trying to push off people when the reality is that the proposal itself is pretty fucking stupid, and the Governor, no matter what letter is behind his name, isnt anti-teacher for vetoing it.

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PenelopeWitherspoon

PenelopeWitherspoon 19108

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57 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Good Lord you are human garbage, Penelope. 

Why?  BecauseI believe that education should be financed by local governments, rather than the Federal government who could fuck up a wet dream?  Or because unlike mouthbreathers like you, I understand that the motivation behind that headline was political.  A statewide minimum wage is fucking stupid.  And yes, while I would prefer to have no price controls (minimums or maximums), I understand the need for them.  No pure economic system is possible.  There is no pure capitalism or socialism.  However, I tend to trend more towards more free markets and individual choice than the government being this benevolent being there for the greater good.    

Education in this country is broken.  There are tough choices that have to be made, and I personally believe that it is going to take actual adults willing to make hard choices to do that rather than politicians who only care as much as their re-election campaign and poll numbers allow themselves to.  Ultimately, not everyone is college material.  The world does need ditch diggers.  And you can pay teachers 6 figure salaries, and in some school districts or schools, that absolutely will not make a difference.  It is an absolute reality.  But hey, you keep your head in the clouds and believe what you want to.  

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Nolacycling

Nolacycling 893

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Blood out of a Turnip.

Thanks @softlynow  for the military budget argument. But that never flies because of course they don't want $ spent on that military project either. As fast as you can come up with a list of $ being misappropriated, they agree that it is a waste, but no talk of raising teachers salaries. After 30 years, I'm locked in on the teacher's salary schedule. Having said that, this teacher salary discussion will go the way they always do, 'Well if they don't like it, they can go get another job." 

Yep, I'm Googling Luxembourg right now.

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pepper brooks

pepper brooks 580

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2 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

Regarding the second paragraph:

Telling someone making 40k to teach in Chicago to move to another state is not realistic. They can probably barely afford rent and a car payment. How about using the market by paying more, which will attract a larger pool from which to select teachers? A larger pool means better talent to chose from, which means better teaching, which addresses your first paragraph.

that might work in a solvent state, but that isn't Illinois.  Paying more in Illinois means sacrificing somewhere else.  That was kinda my first point.  By no means am I one to advocate teachers make less.  Quite the opposite, but like most things I am quite tired of simply throwing more taxpayer money at everything and seeing no improvement in results.  

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RPM

RPM 26323

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On 9/18/2018 at 4:02 PM, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

So serious question, given the state of both Illinois' and Chicago's finances, how is this guaranteed teacher minimum wage going to be funded? 

If only there was some extremely popular natural substance that made people happy that we could legalize and tax the shit out of.

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pepper brooks

pepper brooks 580

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11 hours ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Let the market set the minimum for salaries of elected officials first.

I will vote for that.  In fact, I will say many of our problems would be solved if we raised the minimum age for eligibility to about 57, put in term limits of 2 terms regardless of office, and make pay nothing more than the cost of travel, lodging and a food stipend, and make all campaign donations come from taxpayer funds, and all candidates get the same amount.  Let's see who wants to run and hold office as public service and give back, and let's weed out the ones trying to make a career and a means to get wealthy from their office.  

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