Houston Prop B - firefighter pay

[Nice Guy Eddie 13411]

Houston has Proposition B on the ballot in November to bring firefighters’ pay to equal police pay.   From what I know, I’m voting No.

Below are the facts as I’ve read them:

·        Experienced firefighters are paid less than police with the same amount of tenure.  Sometimes significantly. 

·        Firefighters have other benefits, including flex scheduling and better pensions that the police do not have. 

·        Police get an equipment stipend and this prop would give that money to fireman even though they don’t have to buy anything personally.  It will be a bonus for them.

·        There is a 9.5% raise currently offered by the city but firefighters have rejected it.

·        To bring firefighters to the same level as police, it will require a 25% pay increase overall.  Some individuals will receive more than 25%, some less.

·        Overall this would lead to firefighters receiving more pay/benefits than police. And if police get a raise, firefighters automatically do as well. 

·        The city has spending limits, so this is expected change could lead to layoffs and other services being shut down.

The firefighters’ main argument appears to be that they should be compensated the same as police.  At face value, that seems very fair but they are conveniently leaving their other benefits out of the picture.  It’s a bit disingenuous.

 

 

[David Dennison 18655]

I'd vote yes because everything I learned about cops, I learned from NWA.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Cut the police pay. Easy.

[Chrispy 132]

I’m a bit torn on this issue because like you said, firefighters have a very favorable shedule compared to police officers and it’s extremely difficult to lose one’s job. On the other hand, my brother-in-law is a firefighter and he’s detailed some scenes of human depravity that shake me to my core. The stories about women suffering form postpartum depression mutilating babies are the worst and will require him to seek counseling, of that I’m sure. 

Ok, I’ve convinced myself, give them more money. 

[happyfunball 481]

4 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

Firefighter's make dirt for money. They are like teachers in that regard, in the sense I think a lot of people who choose to do it are doing so at a financial sacrifice. I mean, some of these guys would be better off financially being a bar tender or mowing lawns or something.

Free market. Go work in the private sector.

[David Dennison 18655]

Just now, happyfunball said:

Free market. Go work in the private sector.

Do you really believe the private sector in the United States is a free market?

[Captainant 27447]

17 minutes ago, happyfunball said:

Free market. Go work in the private sector.

Idk about you, but I'd rather not trust some private sector pukes to put out the fire in/on/around my house, or to pry me out of a car wreck to save my life. I don't want some fucking shareholders that are unaccountable to the public (outside of "MUH FREE MARKET!!!ONE!!!") deciding how they will render critical care or services. Maybe, just maybe, we should pay a good wage for jobs that are absolutely critical to the health of our nation? Like teaching, firefighters, flight controllers, etc?

[Jack Burton 35]

HFD firefighters have a pretty sweet schedule, but still have all their young guys leaving and trying to get into Austin and any other city dept. Hell all of the older HFD guys are straight up telling the young guys they should leave. There were 4 alone at the beginning of Cadet class 126 here in Austin and has been a steady stream leaving in previous classes and around 6 that are coming in the next cadet class. None of them expect to be paid the same as cops, because they recognize that job is harder and full of more BS. They can even accept a small bump in pay, it was the pension fucking that really needed to be addressed. 

 

Generally I'm a troll in the politics section, but have a little bit of an unique insight in this and will try to give some insightful thought. Don't get used to it.

[happyfunball 481]

6 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Idk about you, but I'd rather not trust some private sector pukes to put out the fire in/on/around my house, or to pry me out of a car wreck to save my life. I don't want some fucking shareholders that are unaccountable to the public (outside of "MUH FREE MARKET!!!ONE!!!") deciding how they will render critical care or services. Maybe, just maybe, we should pay a good wage for jobs that are absolutely critical to the health of our nation? Like teaching, firefighters, flight controllers, etc?

I am not for privatizing the fire department but stating that if pay is too low that they have the right to go get another job.

[David Dennison 18655]

Just now, happyfunball said:

I am not for privatizing the fire department but stating that if pay is too low that they have the right to go get another job.

That will just ensure that the city has a shitty fire department. 

The City of Houston's fire and police departments should be world class and both should pay their ranks accordingly.

[Captainant 27447]

1 minute ago, happyfunball said:

I am not for privatizing the fire department but stating that if pay is too low that they have the right to go get another job.

And if we're paying firefighters so little that the fire dept ends up in a diminished state... Isn't that effectively just privatizing the fire department? If you want a job to be done well, you shouldn't be expecting to pay peanuts for it unless it's actually an easy, simple, fast job.

[happyfunball 481]

12 minutes ago, Captainant said:

And if we're paying firefighters so little that the fire dept ends up in a diminished state... Isn't that effectively just privatizing the fire department? If you want a job to be done well, you shouldn't be expecting to pay peanuts for it unless it's actually an easy, simple, fast job.

We should be for paying livable wages for all public sector employees and not trying to pit them against each other. I am against one-off propositions for x group wage increase. Either we believe public sectors should be paid competitively or not. It shouldn't be pay at the expense of another public sector group. 

[Captainant 27447]

Can't disagree with you there. Trouble is, crafting a broad and complete reform of public sector pay is significantly more difficult than a one-off fix and would definitely take significantly more time to craft, lobby, and pass. And in the meantime, the people we rely on continue to be paid less than a livable wage. So I completely agree with you that this is a less than ideal solution and does not scale at all, but I don't have faith in a comprehensive solution getting accomplished in the current political climate.

[Dewey 3280]

I've seen some bits and pieces in the news where some HFD stations are having issues with their trucks. One in Bellaire was driving around a loaner suburban til their truck could get fixed. Another station camped at a park til a mechanic could get to their truck, apparently the air brakes locked up, again, and they had to stay overnight watching the truck. That's piss poor for a City the size of Houston.

[Your Mom 4796]

Everyone that thinks their schedule is so sweet is only looking at numbers of days off and forgetting the fact that when they are at work for a few days at a time they are gone from home and unavailable to their families that entire time.  I’m not a firefighter but I work a similar schedule.  The days off are wonderful but it sucks missing half your kids’ practices, half their games, half their Saturdays and Sundays, half their birthdays, half the other special occasions in your life.  

The only thing that should matter in negotiations is number of hours worked per week.  If that number is the same as the police that’s all that matters.  The schedule should not be used as a basis to pay them less.  

 

[conVINCEd 21468]

Out of curiosity, what does a firefighter’s schedule look like?  

[atomheartbevo 89416]

1 hour ago, conVINCEd said:

Out of curiosity, what does a firefighter’s schedule look like?  

https://www.houstontx.gov/fire/firefighterinfo/shifts.html

My brother-in-law is an HFD firefighter (paramedic).  In the last 5 years, I could probably count on one hand the number of times he’s had New Year’s off, July 4th, etc.   When he’s had a rough shift, it seems like he’s out of it for a few days after (lot of sleep), so it’s not simply just a shift of X amount of hours, there’s recovery time involved. 

Harvey pushed him to the absolute limit, and he thought about leaving.  Even though they had mandated times they were supposed to be sleeping/resting, I know he and others from his station were voluntarily out on boats helping people when they should have been sleeping. It’s the nature of the profession. 

[Jack Burton 35]

8 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

Out of curiosity, what does a firefighter’s schedule look like?  

In Austin, 24 on 48 off, shift change at noon. Make 50k out of probation, 56k next year, 63k year after, 68k for next 3 years. Every extra shift you pick up is potentially 24 hours overtime. Sweet gig that had alot of city ff's making close to 100k a year because they couldn't hire anyone for 3 years due to a DOJ investigation. That's coming to an end with all the new classes coming in. AFD is the most sought after dept in the state and has a ton of national applicants as well. Not much fire compared to Houston, mostly medical and responding to car wrecks, flooding is a big issue at both depts.

Not 100% sure but I think Houston has 4 shifts instead of 3 which is why their pay was lower overall but higher hourly. I think the work schedule was 24 on 24 off 24 on and 96 off. Somewhere in that schedule they're  supposed to work the box (ambulance) but can't remember exactly. Their apparatus and ambulances are an absolute joke (their words) and tell stories of how they had to use duck tape to strap people down on longboards cause they couldn't get the city to replace straps timely. Residents of Houston deserve better in terms of funding and attention for their city.

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13411]

On 9/24/2018 at 4:15 PM, Dewey said:

I've seen some bits and pieces in the news where some HFD stations are having issues with their trucks. One in Bellaire was driving around a loaner suburban til their truck could get fixed. Another station camped at a park til a mechanic could get to their truck, apparently the air brakes locked up, again, and they had to stay overnight watching the truck. That's piss poor for a City the size of Houston.

According to the city, if the firefighters get the raise, equipment will suffer and not only with the firefighters.

Im all for paying firefighters what they would earn in other comparable cities, but govt can’t absorb a 25% raise for a block of employees without consequences.

my guess is that the vote will pass because everyone loves firefighters.    Of course if the prop said that local taxes would rise to offset the raise, it would fail.  People don’t love firefighters enough to pay for it out of their pocket.

[Dewey 3280]

I'm guess Houston is in a financial crunch, why else would the mayor make note that if the FD gets their raise, all promotions and new hires will be frozen. Seems more like a scare tactic. They also cant stop a couple water leaks, which have been spewing water for weeks.

I dont know what's going on, I dont live in Houston, but it seems like they are either out of money or that money is going to people who do not want to take a hit in their pocketbooks.

[The Tres Leches 58]

Firefighters are seeking a 32% raise from the voters but turned down a 4.5% raise in 2015 and a 9.5% raise this year.

[Guest]

On 9/24/2018 at 12:44 PM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Houston has Proposition B on the ballot in November to bring firefighters’ pay to equal police pay.   From what I know, I’m voting No.

Below are the facts as I’ve read them:

·        Experienced firefighters are paid less than police with the same amount of tenure.  Sometimes significantly. 

·        Firefighters have other benefits, including flex scheduling and better pensions that the police do not have. 

·        Police get an equipment stipend and this prop would give that money to fireman even though they don’t have to buy anything personally.  It will be a bonus for them.

·        There is a 9.5% raise currently offered by the city but firefighters have rejected it.

·        To bring firefighters to the same level as police, it will require a 25% pay increase overall.  Some individuals will receive more than 25%, some less.

·        Overall this would lead to firefighters receiving more pay/benefits than police. And if police get a raise, firefighters automatically do as well. 

·        The city has spending limits, so this is expected change could lead to layoffs and other services being shut down.

The firefighters’ main argument appears to be that they should be compensated the same as police.  At face value, that seems very fair but they are conveniently leaving their other benefits out of the picture.  It’s a bit disingenuous.

 

 

what is the ratio between police and firefighters' pay in other major metros?  Is there a reasonable expectation of 1:1?

It's two very different jobs.

[Guest]

On 9/26/2018 at 9:05 AM, Dewey said:

I'm guess Houston is in a financial crunch, why else would the mayor make note that if the FD gets their raise, all promotions and new hires will be frozen. Seems more like a scare tactic. They also cant stop a couple water leaks, which have been spewing water for weeks.

I dont know what's going on, I dont live in Houston, but it seems like they are either out of money or that money is going to people who do not want to take a hit in their pocketbooks.
 

The City of Houston and its firefighters have been fighting over money for a longass time.  It is politics at its finest, by both sides.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

I used to hunt with some firefighters from the dfw area.  They’d work a lot of OT and would have weeks of time off at a time to hunt.  

[Nice Guy Eddie 13411]

For me, it's too simplistic to just say that firefighters should be paid the same based on job titles.  They say a HFD captain earns 64K while a HPD captain earns closer to 100.  Or something like that.  Obviously that is not a minor difference.  My question is are they the same job and level?   I've worked in organizations where one director has 2 people underneath them, whereas another director has 100.  Should those 2 people be paid the same?  I don't know but it would seem like the answer should be generally no.

Overall I would want our firefighters to be paid the same as any major city while taking cost of living into account.    And being paid is not just salary but benefits as well.

[kevwun 15643]

A good friend of mine is a retired HFD Captain, so he's a little biased.  This goes back a long ways though from what he's told me.  The firefighters agreed a long time ago to have a lower salary in exchange for a really good pension.  This was done through the Legislature.  It was too good though and Houston couldn't afford it starting a few years ago.  The City got the Leg to reduce their pension.  It effected the retired guys also, so it was across the board.  So I can see why they want a raise now since the big perk has been reduced, but it's tough knowing that it's a strain on the City's budget.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13411]

27 minutes ago, kevwun said:

A good friend of mine is a retired HFD Captain, so he's a little biased.  This goes back a long ways though from what he's told me.  The firefighters agreed a long time ago to have a lower salary in exchange for a really good pension.  This was done through the Legislature.  It was too good though and Houston couldn't afford it starting a few years ago.  The City got the Leg to reduce their pension.  It effected the retired guys also, so it was across the board.  So I can see why they want a raise now since the big perk has been reduced, but it's tough knowing that it's a strain on the City's budget.

Yep.  I know one of the arguments from Turner is that the city budget is constrained by law so giving more to firefighters means something else has to be reduced.   Perhaps even the number of firefighters or police.

Of course I also know the property tax revenue in Houston has drastically increased over the past decade.  Where is that money going?  Are we still paying off the Astrodome renovations from the 80s?  (I know that the city and county are different entities.)

[misslaw 8]

I used to work for the City in the legal department. The only department that was routinely difficult to deal with was the Fire Department. And this was for everything, not just issues dealing with their pay or pension. They don’t want to talk about anything or negotiate, they just want their way. Period. I will be voting NO on Prop B. 

[Hanrahan 1306]

Shouldn't the question be whether Houston firefighters are being paid similar to firefighters in other big cities in Texas?

[LCHorn 2585]

As a lender, I tend to know what everyone makes and I’m always shocked at how well compensated HPD is.  I did a loan for a married couple, both had between 15-20 years in and both made $12k a month, which seems extremely high in light of their pension and job security.

[Viper 12028]

 

On 9/24/2018 at 3:20 PM, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

Sure, and then most people do and then you get your B and C team players. It's about incentizing those who would be the best firefighters, to be the best firefighters, instead of being a mediocre tax accountant or something lol.

 

On 9/24/2018 at 3:46 PM, David Dennison said:

That will just ensure that the city has a shitty fire department. 

The City of Houston's fire and police departments should be world class and both should pay their ranks accordingly.

That would be the only reason to pay them more. However that's not the argument they're advancing. Is the city, in fact, suffering because we are not getting enough fire fighters, or are getting subpar fire fighters? I don't know, but that's the only data I would think would convince me that we need to increase their pay.

[sheeeit 129]

I am for these guys earning as much as they can.  I think police deserve more as the jobs are different.  Based on this site (no idea if accurate), base salary for fire fighters in Houston is essentially the same as Austin and Dallas.

https://www1.salary.com/TX/Fire-Fighter-Salary.html

Almost every firefighter I ever knew (almost all good guys/gals) had a second gig doing something mechanical related- sprinkler systems, light furniture manufacturing, yard work etc.   Stuff that could be done in garages and similar and that there was not a deadline for getting something done.  None of the cops I have known have second gigs as the schedule does not allow it.  On average firefighters have 20 days off per month but technically work more hours than 8-5ers because the hours are in 24 hour blocks.  On average, firefighters work 240 hours per month versus  184 for others.  There is also an almost unlimited ability for OT.  

If they got promised a pension in exchange for salary and that changed then they deserve to have the difference made up.

There are approximately 4000 firefighters in Houston with an average salary of about $46K.  A 32% raise would cost the city about $56,000,000.

[misslaw 8]

58 minutes ago, Hanrahan said:

Shouldn't the question be whether Houston firefighters are being paid similar to firefighters in other big cities in Texas?

Only if you include what they get from their pension in the numbers. And, HFD refuses to provide transparency as to their pension. 

[Hanrahan 1306]

1 minute ago, misslaw said:

Only if you include what they get from their pension in the numbers. And, HFD refuses to provide transparency as to their pension. 

OMG, you totally hate firefighters.  Maybe you could show us on a doll where one touched you.

[Your Mom 4796]

2 hours ago, misslaw said:

I used to work for the City in the legal department. The only department that was routinely difficult to deal with was the Fire Department. And this was for everything, not just issues dealing with their pay or pension. They don’t want to talk about anything or negotiate, they just want their way. Period. I will be voting NO on Prop B. 

You know what else is difficult to deal with?  

Fires. 

[Jack Burton 35]

18 minutes ago, sheeeit said:

I am for these guys earning as much as they can.  I think police deserve more as the jobs are different.  Based on this site (no idea if accurate), base salary for fire fighters in Houston is essentially the same as Austin and Dallas.

https://www1.salary.com/TX/Fire-Fighter-Salary.html

Almost every firefighter I ever knew (almost all good guys/gals) had a second gig doing something mechanical related- sprinkler systems, light furniture manufacturing, yard work etc.   Stuff that could be done in garages and similar and that there was not a deadline for getting something done.  None of the cops I have known have second gigs as the schedule does not allow it.  On average firefighters have 20 days off per month but technically work more hours than 8-5ers because the hours are in 24 hour blocks.  On average, firefighters work 240 hours per month versus  184 for others.  There is also an almost unlimited ability for OT.  

If they got promised a pension in exchange for salary and that changed then they deserve to have the difference made up.

There are approximately 4000 firefighters in Houston with an average salary of about $46K.  A 32% raise would cost the city about $56,000,000.

The pay is not the same. What Austin pays it's probies is what Houston guys make. Austin guys make 70k after  3 years. Dallas just went to 60k base.

[deech 2251]

The issue here more than anything is that  firefighters negotiated a breakdown of salary and pension security for decades.  For decades they took the lower salary/higher pension security approach.  In the last few years when the Police Officer's pension and the Municipal employees pensions are dogshit by comparison to the self-funded Firefighters pension and are going bankrupt, the City goes to the legislature of the state for permission to tap the Firefighters pension.  They take from the self-funded Firefighters pension to add stability to the other two pensions.  Now they are pissed that Firefighters are asking for a pay increase or pay equity  and trying to pit Cops against Firefighters.  

For me, it's not about cop pay v. firefighter pay.  It's about the City and what it did to cover for its mismanagement of the other two pensions.  

[Hank Scorpio 17723]

Fucking greedy firefighters. I'm going to run for city council on a pro-fire platform. Oh, you like having a hot meal, guess where that came from? Fire. You enjoy not freezing to death in the winter? Well you should be thanking fire. Like driving your car or flying in a plane? Fire says your're welcome. 

Sure fires destroy property and kill people, but would you rather live in the stone age? Because that is what the firefighters want. 

[misslaw 8]

1 hour ago, Hanrahan said:

OMG, you totally hate firefighters.  Maybe you could show us on a doll where one touched you.

I do not hate firefighters. I don’t respect how HFD handles their business. 

[misslaw 8]

1 hour ago, Your Mom said:

You know what else is difficult to deal with?  

Fires. 

Agreed. Doesn’t mean they get a blank check, which is what they are asking for. 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

2 hours ago, LCHorn said:

As a lender, I tend to know what everyone makes and I’m always shocked at how well compensated HPD is.  I did a loan for a married couple, both had between 15-20 years in and both made $12k a month, which seems extremely high in light of their pension and job security.

Well, when you can get overtime pay for going to traffic court and during the time you’re supposed to be in court you’re working a side security job for $50 per hour, it adds up.  

That’s my experience with what HPD did when I was a volunteer traffic court prosecutor as a baby lawyer.  

Edited September 27, 2018 by Johnny Sack

[misslaw 8]

27 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Well, when you can get overtime pay for going to traffic court and during the time you’re supposed to be in court you’re working a side security job for $50 per hour, it adds up.  

That’s my experience with what HPD did when I was a volunteer traffic court prosecutor as a baby lawyer.  

The City cut down on HPD overtime the past 6 years, specifically with the ticket writing folks. Currently, they are writing a lot less Class C violations (trafffic tickets) than in the past. So much so, that it has the traffic ticket lawyers looking for other work. 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 minute ago, misslaw said:

The City cut down on HPD overtime the past 6 years, specifically with the ticket writing folks. Currently, they are writing a lot less Class C violations (trafffic tickets) than in the past. So much so, that it has the traffic ticket lawyers looking for other work. 

Good.  Because what I saw in the mid 2000s was a travesty.  Several, like old Matt Davis, were criminal thiefs

[Nice Guy Eddie 13411]

5 hours ago, Jack Burton said:

The pay is not the same. What Austin pays it's probies is what Houston guys make. Austin guys make 70k after  3 years. Dallas just went to 60k base.

Wow.  The Houston stories claim that HFD captains earn 64k.  I would assume that the Austin firefighter earning 70k after 3 years isn’t a captain yet.  

 

[Jack Burton 35]

First year captain in AFD in the current pay scale is 88k. However, nobody gets captain at year 6, takes at least 12-15 years to get there if you are the best of the best. Kerr promoted based on race/woman (fuck it, were in Politics) so alot of the minimum promotions she made will be there awhile. Below is current pay scale.

https://joinafd.com/benefits-summary

Edited September 28, 2018 by Jack Burton
Hard truths

[misslaw 8]

9 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Wow.  The Houston stories claim that HFD captains earn 64k.  I would assume that the Austin firefighter earning 70k after 3 years isn’t a captain yet.  

 

The pay numbers only tell a part of the story. You need to add in the pension numbers for each of the fire departments as well. That is where HFD makes their money. Their big selling point to new recruits is that if they work with HFD for 15 years, they will have $1M minimum in pension benefits. Because of state law which controls the governance of pensions, the pension boards do not have to provide much, if any, transparency as to what they are doing and only have to present the municipality with a bill each year to fund their pension.

HFD makes big bucks off their pension. The City finally made some changes to all 3 pensions (police, fire and muni worker) last legislative session. HFD is butt hurt because they finally had to make cuts to their benefits (cuts the other 2 pensions had agreed to make in years prior), and now we have this referendum, which makes no sense and if it passes, will result in less city services because the City will have to either lay off firefighters or cut down on fire equipment. 

Edited September 28, 2018 by misslaw

[Hanrahan 1306]

Sounds like if it passes firefighters will get paid the same as the other first responders in the City.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13411]

32 minutes ago, Hanrahan said:

Sounds like if it passes firefighters will get paid the same as the other first responders in the City.

sounds like their total compensation will put them well ahead of the other first responders in the city.

[deech 2251]

4 hours ago, misslaw said:

The pay numbers only tell a part of the story. You need to add in the pension numbers for each of the fire departments as well. That is where HFD makes their money. Their big selling point to new recruits is that if they work with HFD for 15 years, they will have $1M minimum in pension benefits. Because of state law which controls the governance of pensions, the pension boards do not have to provide much, if any, transparency as to what they are doing and only have to present the municipality with a bill each year to fund their pension.

HFD makes big bucks off their pension. The City finally made some changes to all 3 pensions (police, fire and muni worker) last legislative session. HFD is butt hurt because they finally had to make cuts to their benefits (cuts the other 2 pensions had agreed to make in years prior), and now we have this referendum, which makes no sense and if it passes, will result in less city services because the City will have to either lay off firefighters or cut down on fire equipment. 

They are butt-hurt because they cut benefits to the firefighters from their self-funded pension to sustain the other two pensions that were bankrupt because the City, the Cops, and the Municipal employees didn't fund them themselves properly.  It's called theft if its not done by a legislative act.

 

The referendum spinning by the City is a complete and total joke.  And like you I absolutely hate how the HFD operates.

[kevwun 15643]

This is what happens when politicians make short-sighted decisions to make a problem go away.  Kicking the can down the road eventually sends you and the can over a cliff.