Perpetual Middle East Geopolitical Quagmire Megathread

[Judge Roybeanbag 11,810]

3 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

 

   3 hours ago,  Nice Guy Eddie said: 

I’m shocked if there is audio/video of the guy being tortured and killed.  Whoever leaked out that recording better look out.

I dunno, I doubt the Turks would risk an international incident if they weren’t being truthful. 

[DDD Dad 14,252]

Why did Constantinople get the works?

[Chad Fuck 17,566]

On 10/12/2018 at 6:34 PM, DDD Dad said:

Why did Constantinople get the works?

That's nobody's business but the Turks. 

 

[LongestHorn 759]

Did a large procession wave their torches as his head fell in the basket?

The trick was to get him into an embassy or consulate.  Home field advantage.  And Khashoggi knew it was a risk.  So he went in with his Apple watch recording it and maybe more if he had help.

I would have called a security expert before I walked onto KSA property as a just in case to cover my ass.  Knowing that he had friends listening, he probably did tell the interrogator his mother fucks goats.  His expert passes it to the Turks.  He knew he was dead, but the story would get out.  He's a martyr.

[shnsajax 3,589]

This is starting to hit the fan. Time to expose his SA links.

[Bama Chick 28,596]

Jesus. This is horrifying if true.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

4 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Jesus. This is horrifying if true.

The Saudis (MBS) WANT people to know this.  The message is more important than the murder.  Bash the King in the press and get the bone saw. 

It’s the same reason Putin uses very specific chemical weapons to kill his traitors abroad.  

He wants everyone to know it was him.

[LongestHorn 759]

If that is true, KSA would have recorded the killing and have recordings.  I don't believe they knew the Turks were listening.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

3 minutes ago, LongestHorn said:

If that is true, KSA would have recorded the killing and have recordings.  I don't believe they knew the Turks were listening.

Why did they do this at the consulate? 

If they really wanted plausible deniability, why not just black bag kidnap him off the street and “interrogate” him at the Motel 6? 

This was intentionally done under the roof of the Saudi government for a reason. 

[Anastasis 23,394]

Do we totally trust Erdogan and Turkey in this thing?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Do we totally trust Erdogan and Turkey in this thing?

Never trust Erdogan but I’m not sure what his significance would be in this.

[Anastasis 23,394]

5 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Never trust Erdogan but I’m not sure what his significance would be in this.

You are asking what the potential role of Erdogan is in a situation playing out in the Saudi consulate in Turkey where the narrative of what took place is being crafted by the Turkish intelligence agency? 

To be clear, I don't see any reason to disbelieve the Turkish intelligence.  I don't think they would be making strong moves like they are without ironclad evidence. But I do think that we should question their angle here and be alert. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

You are asking what the potential role of Erdogan is in a situation playing out in the Saudi consulate in Turkey where the narrative of what took place is being crafted by the Turkish intelligence agency? 

To be clear, I don't see any reason to disbelieve the Turkish intelligence.  I don't think they would be making strong moves like they are without ironclad evidence. But I do think that we should question their angle here and be alert. 

I’m asking what is the significance.

Whether or not Erdogan had a role in any of this isn’t really debatable, of course he did.  He at least had a hand in crafting/leaking the initial narrative. 

I don’t know why that’s important or what angle, if any he’s going for other than authoritarian gonna authoritarian.

[Bama Chick 28,596]

Anybody shocked?

Yeah, me neither.

[hayden_horn 11,360]

Yeah, the Saudis recorded it to show the prince the dirty work. Somehow the Turks tapped into that recording. Those details are too realistic for me to think they were made up. 

[InkaUtexas 25,523]

48 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

Yeah, the Saudis recorded it to show the prince the dirty work. Somehow the Turks tapped into that recording. Those details are too realistic for me to think they were made up. 

Or we or the brits did. They have one hell of a listening post in Cyprus. we might have one or two in the region. 

[InkaUtexas 25,523]

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I’m asking what is the significance.

Whether or not Erdogan had a role in any of this isn’t really debatable, of course he did.  He at least had a hand in crafting/leaking the initial narrative. 

I don’t know why that’s important or what angle, if any he’s going for other than authoritarian gonna authoritarian.

well see, there was this thing called the Ottoman Empire. And if you have spent anytime working in the Arab/Ottoman world you would know their perception on history is a tad bit different than ours. Erdogan wants to rebuild his empire. The Saudi's kind of block the way. They are not friends and never have been. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

34 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

well see, there was this thing called the Ottoman Empire. And if you have spent anytime working in the Arab/Ottoman world you would know their perception on history is a tad bit different than ours. Erdogan wants to rebuild his empire. The Saudi's kind of block the way. They are not friends and never have been. 

They are rivals for sure but they both go out of their way not to upset the other. 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Parliament 14,138]

Do we totally trust Erdogan and Turkey in this thing?

I'm wondering the same. I'm not saying they're lying, but I'd like to get it from more than a "Turkish source."

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

3 minutes ago, Parliament said:

I'm wondering the same. I'm not saying they're lying, but I'd like to get it from more than a "Turkish source."

 

I’m trying to figure out what you think might be going on?

Erdogan is only going to make moves that make him stronger and his opponents weaker. 

It’s that simple 

[Parliament 14,138]

I think they killed him. But I want a better source than the one sited in those screenshots.

Question. If a crime was committed there, do Turkish police, Interpol or whoever, have the legal right to a search warrant? If he was chopped all up, there's no way they could clean it up. That place would absolutely GLOW under a black light.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

Jared will fix this in the morning.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

Imagine thinking to yourself, “I really miss Rex Tillerson as Secretary of State.”

because that’s where we are now.

 

[InkaUtexas 25,523]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

They are rivals for sure but they both go out of their way not to upset the other. 

nah, they don't, you just rarely hear about it in the US press. 

Ever wonder why the Saudi opposition in Syria never was given sanctuary in Turkey? Every hear about the battle for the Bosnian minds after the break up of Yugoslavia? 

[atomheartbevo 89,449]

3 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Or we or the brits did. They have one hell of a listening post in Cyprus. we might have one or two in the region. 

Don’t leave out the Israelis.  They want to resume their cozy friendship with the Turks, and both have common enemies. 

[atomheartbevo 89,449]

2 hours ago, Parliament said:

 If he was chopped all up, there's no way they could clean it up. That place would absolutely GLOW under a black light.

Somebody didn’t party very hard in their 20s.  

[atomheartbevo 89,449]

3 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Or we or the brits did. They have one hell of a listening post in Cyprus. we might have one or two in the region. 

Don’t leave out the Israelis.  They want to resume their cozy friendship with the Turks, and both have common enemies. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,414]

4 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Imagine thinking to yourself, “I really miss Rex Tillerson as Secretary of State.”

because that’s where we are now.

 

Or the saudis could let an uninterested party complete the investigation.  The saudis will just pay everyone off because the king wants his son to be the next king.  

Interesting theory above that it’s not a mistake that this info was released and the saudis wanted it to unfold this way.  The only part I think doesn’t fit with this theory is the timing right before their international conference and their changing story.

[InkaUtexas 25,523]

6 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Don’t leave out the Israelis.  They want to resume their cozy friendship with the Turks, and both have common enemies. 

Of course. And that relationship has become quite strained since the Turks started to push the empire. 

[A Cellar Honker 19]

As is always the case, there's a lot more to the story than what's being reported. It turns out that Khashoggi, who is a relative of the infamous arms dealer Adnan Khashoggi, was part of the old-line faction of Saudi royalty who pimped extremist Wahabbism, and was himself a member of the Muslim Brotherhood that has as its central tenet rabid anti-western and anti-modernity worldview. As, for lack of a better word, "progressive" as the KSA can be for a medieval society, the new prince (who is a millennial and a big fan of Silicon Valley high tech) represents a direct threat to that.

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

9 hours ago, Parliament said:

I think they killed him. But I want a better source than the one sited in those screenshots.

Question. If a crime was committed there, do Turkish police, Interpol or whoever, have the legal right to a search warrant? If he was chopped all up, there's no way they could clean it up. That place would absolutely GLOW under a black light.

I learned all I know about crime scene investigation from CSI Miami, but no. Local LEOs can't enter or get a warrant to enter Consulates and Embassies.  Its foreign soil. Consul/ambassador has to invite them.  But if you have Horatio Caine on your team, he can trick them into doing this. 

Only local recourse under international norms when the order clearly came from the top is diplomatic expulsion. Of course, they could raid the consulate anyway breaking all types of international agreements in the process. 

Thats one reason to do it in the consulate rather than in the back of a halal butcher shop. 

[horncyclist 1,386]

As is always the case, there's a lot more to the story than what's being reported. It turns out that Khashoggi, who is a relative of the infamous arms dealer Adnan Khashoggi, was part of the old-line faction of Saudi royalty who pimped extremist Wahabbism, and was himself a member of the Muslim Brotherhood that has as its central tenet rabid anti-western and anti-modernity worldview. As, for lack of a better word, "progressive" as the KSA can be for a medieval society, the new prince (who is a millennial and a big fan of Silicon Valley high tech) represents a direct threat to that.

This is another thread but I don't think that's a fair take on the Muslim Brotherhood. I find it suspicious the narrative you just gave is being pushed by the antimuslim right.

[A Cellar Honker 19]

4 minutes ago, horncyclist said:

This is another thread but I don't think that's a fair take on the Muslim Brotherhood. I find it suspicious the narrative you just gave is being pushed by the antimuslim right.

The “narrative” I’m pushing is that there’s no clear cut good guys and bad guys in this story.  And as far as your assertion that being critical of the MB is somehow “antimuslim”, wow.

[InkaUtexas 25,523]

26 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

 

Thats one reason to do it in the consulate rather than in the back of a halal butcher shop. 

yeah, but a lot harder to monitor all them damn butcher shops whereas there are a shit load of cameras, and probably people, watching that consulate. 

[horncyclist 1,386]

The “narrative” I’m pushing is that there’s no clear cut good guys and bad guys in this story.  And as far as your assertion that being critical of the MB is somehow “antimuslim”, wow.

I'm just having trouble sorting it out and the only sources I see questioning Kasshogi are right wing. And if Kasshogi was a bad guy, murdering him as a state actor in the way they did places the Saudis on the wrong side of this. I've been an MBS fan but he fucked up here.

[A Cellar Honker 19]

1 minute ago, horncyclist said:

18 minutes ago, A Cellar Honker said:

The “narrative” I’m pushing is that there’s no clear cut good guys and bad guys in this story.  And as far as your assertion that being critical of the MB is somehow “antimuslim”, wow.

I'm just having trouble sorting it out and the only sources I see questioning Kasshogi are right wing. And if Kasshogi was a bad guy, murdering him as a state actor in the way they did places the Saudis on the wrong side of this. I've been an MBS fan but he fucked up here.

I get what you’re saying.  Unfortunately, facts are in short supply now.  I’m going to wait and see.

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

13 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

yeah, but a lot harder to monitor all them damn butcher shops whereas there are a shit load of cameras, and probably people, watching that consulate. 

Perhaps, but how many Saudi friendly butcher shops are there in Turkey?

[InkaUtexas 25,523]

26 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Perhaps, but how many Saudi friendly butcher shops are there in Turkey?

Probably one or two. Useful for moving fucktards and information across the region and are part of the Hawala system for moving cash. You could tell who was backing the ones in Sarajevo (Saudi, Turk, Iran) by the posters and images on the calendars. 

[shnsajax 3,589]

Of course foxnews.com isn't covering any of this. 

[hayden_horn 11,360]

4 minutes ago, shnsajax said:

Of course foxnews.com isn't covering any of this. 

haha, their main headline is "DIFI under fire"

[shnsajax 3,589]

2 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

haha, their main headline is "DIFI under fire"

I mean, the 5th headline is about George Lopez. Its pathetic.

[Lagunamadre 1,975]

3 hours ago, A Cellar Honker said:

As is always the case, there's a lot more to the story than what's being reported. It turns out that Khashoggi, who is a relative of the infamous arms dealer Adnan Khashoggi, was part of the old-line faction of Saudi royalty who pimped extremist Wahabbism, and was himself a member of the Muslim Brotherhood that has as its central tenet rabid anti-western and anti-modernity worldview. As, for lack of a better word, "progressive" as the KSA can be for a medieval society, the new prince (who is a millennial and a big fan of Silicon Valley high tech) represents a direct threat to that.

Did you cut and paste that from the far right blog Ace of Spades? 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,414]

3 hours ago, A Cellar Honker said:

As is always the case, there's a lot more to the story than what's being reported. It turns out that Khashoggi, who is a relative of the infamous arms dealer Adnan Khashoggi, was part of the old-line faction of Saudi royalty who pimped extremist Wahabbism, and was himself a member of the Muslim Brotherhood that has as its central tenet rabid anti-western and anti-modernity worldview. As, for lack of a better word, "progressive" as the KSA can be for a medieval society, the new prince (who is a millennial and a big fan of Silicon Valley high tech) represents a direct threat to that.

What are him being related to adnan khoshaggi, which I don’t know if true or not?  There must be some reason why that is thrown in as a fact but there isn’t a conclusion. Is he guilty by some type of association?

 

[hayden_horn 11,360]

11 minutes ago, Lagunamadre said:

Did you cut and paste that from the far right blog Ace of Spades? 

hahahahahhaha

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/377635.php

 

[yoladu 4,067]

3 hours ago, A Cellar Honker said:

The “narrative” I’m pushing is that there’s no clear cut good guys and bad guys in this story. 

may assume the bad guys are the ones who killed Khoshaggi and dismembered his body?

[AtticusFinch 155]

16 hours ago, Anastasis said:

You are asking what the potential role of Erdogan is in a situation playing out in the Saudi consulate in Turkey where the narrative of what took place is being crafted by the Turkish intelligence agency? 

To be clear, I don't see any reason to disbelieve the Turkish intelligence.  I don't think they would be making strong moves like they are without ironclad evidence. But I do think that we should question their angle here and be alert. 

Stop thinking like a western european/american.

[yoladu 4,067]

14 minutes ago, Lagunamadre said:

Did you cut and paste that from the far right blog Ace of Spades? 

[Bama Chick 28,596]

“Don’t get me in trouble guys!!!!!”

[horncyclist 1,386]

It's crazy how long it's taking them to come up with a story. Or do they not give a shit cause Trump will not take any action against them? Congress has had some pretty strong words for MBS so far.

[gsoda3 3,236]

What realistically could we do?